[RiverX]

(I also posted this on personality place, but its quiet there)..

To anyone, particularly those with 'avoidant', schizoid type, 'self in exile' type experiences.

I'd like help/ experiences on this subject, I've been doing some writing to try to contribute to understanding of this disorder of the self.

The professional literature I've read on the Schizoid/ and avoidant personality disorder, says that the priority for these people in a relationship is SAFETY.
I am questioning this, and I think the underlying issue is INTEGRITY, or perhaps its a combination of the 2 that should both be taken into account.

I'd like
a) to see if what Im thinking echoes others' experiences and
b), If anyone would like to contribute . ...

check this prof. quote first:

quote:

"“Where the mother’s libidinal investment is insufficient, that is, where there is neglect abuse, trauma, chronic misatunement, or persistent emotional pressure on a child to submit to a relational bargain primarily designed to serve the mother’s psychological needs as opposed to the child’s, a Disorder of the self will result................... with its own structural characteristics. “
p.37 'The Therapist's Guide to the Disorders of the Self' Masterson

......so, the problem being that, even where there isnt an issue of exactly 'neglect', the parent is using the child for thier own unfulfilled needs, rather than fulfilling the child's needs to grow to a fulfilled independant person. This is a 'backwards connection'. What is confusing is that there is also often genuine 'love' involved. But yet, within that love there is a sort of relational distortion.

This was how it was for me. So, for example in therapy, tho I have been diagnosed with schizoid disorder of the self, it isnt safety that I crave in a relationship, but it is integrity.

...so, for example, the last time I saw a T. she moved me on too quickly, before I'd finished dealing with a subject, this put her in charge of the pace and direction of the session, and that makes me feel she is taking power and initiative out of my hands - and why? what is her motive? doesnt she lack integrity if she mainly feels she wants to be in power, in charge of me - that's not the idea of therapy, it should be empowering.. so wheres the integrity here... ? Isnt this a repeat of the original dynamic... the needs of the T. taking over.
So, for me, this is not exactly about 'safety', beneath this, its about the 'dynamic', the relational motivation etc.

...........and thats how my issues go.

(I did try to complain about it, but may have been too forceful, said she'd interrupted, and the rest of the session was just a tangle with her, but ths isnt really the point I'm after ).

So, is there anyone who could contribute thier thoughts/ and experiences here.. ?

I'd love to hear from you, thanks ....

[nowheretorun]

hope its ok to jump in River... is it possible that T's might feel a need to have power, in order to give power?

(((((((((((((((((((((RiverX)))))))))))))))))))))))))

I think therapy is all about a RELATIONSHIP with another person. And in that relationship, we have the chance to see where our trip wires are, to find what triggers us, to learn to express our needs, and to discover how to respond to the other person in a way that helps us grow.

Obviously, coming into therapy, we may not have a lot of relationship "skills", so there are bound to be misunderstandings, confusion, unhelpful responses (from both parties!), etc. But over the long term, I think we can learn a lot about ourselves and learn new ways to relate that we can carry into our day to day experiences.

T wants very much for me to be empowered....but he can't read my mind, and things that seem SO OBVIOUS to me, he will sometimes screw up...like changing the subject when I am talking about something I really need to talk about. I have learned, SLOWLY, over time, to express my needs to him, and he is very respectful of them. IF for some reason, he thinks that "he knows best" in a situation, he will kind of press his point....and if my heart and mind are open, I might end up agreeing with him. Sometimes, he just completely misses the mark, and he is willing to admit that, thankfully.

It's not a smooth process, necessarily. For me, there have been a lot of bumps in the road, both for me personally, and in the relationship between me and T....but working through those times has taught me a lot about what I need, and what I deserve, and how to ask for it. It has also taught me that I can trust T, and that he does indeed have the integrity that is required for such a relationship.

If I had run at the first sign of conflict - or at my first suspicion that he couldn't be trusted after all - I would have missed out on a very meaningful relationship. Basically, I've had to fight against my "insticts" - which are really just learned behaviors - to not trust, and to run away and protect myself. It's been really hard and scary, but worth it.

I don't know if ANY of this is helpful....but this is my experience.

[Mouse_]

Its hard to say when there is only one side of the story. I'd say safety is a biggy, that rides above everything else, if a person doesn't have the ablity to help you feel safe then it goes without saying the integrity wouldn't come into it really.. ..becareful over analyzing stuff, we can get lost in that as it beats dealing with the feelings and relationships, for sure if your not happy with how someone works then find another therapist, only you will truely know if you feel safe with someone and if you do your being willing to work through anything, BECAUSE your feel its worth it...its scary thinking about have a succesful theraputic relationship because that involves vunrabilty and we blind ourself to these real fears and use other issues such as intergrity perhaps?

[pegasus]

Originally Posted by RiverX

...so, for example, the last time I saw a T. she moved me on too quickly, before I'd finished dealing with a subject, this put her in charge of the pace and direction of the session, and that makes me feel she is taking power and initiative out of my hands - and why? what is her motive? doesnt she lack integrity if she mainly feels she wants to be in power, in charge of me - that's not the idea of therapy, it should be empowering.. so wheres the integrity here... ? Isnt this a repeat of the original dynamic... the needs of the T. taking over.
So, for me, this is not exactly about 'safety', beneath this, its about the 'dynamic', the relational motivation etc.

...........and thats how my issues go.

(((((((( RiverX ))))))))

Safety and trust are the two biggies. In my view the therapist has nothing to gain by stopping you wanting to explore something further. We learn along the way that the therapist does know what they are doing! Maybe your T moved you off that subject because she knew you wouldn't be able to process it and will come back to it at a later date. My T did that many a time. Rome isn't built in a day and so we revisited stuff and strengthened the foundations.

[Sannah]

River, you explained something very important here. How about talking to your T about it? Empowerment...........

[chaotic13]

I'm never been dx as being an avoidant, schizoid type, or as having a personality disorder. So take my comments for what they are. When I read the stuff others have posted regarding personality disorders and attachment stuff, I clearly have avoidant tendencies. I believe safety is my priority. My self exile usually occurs when I fear that others are manipulating or using me to serve themselves. It for me it is not about the other person, it is about me feeling like I am safe, aware of ulterior motives and am in control of whether you not I can disengage when I want to.

[RiverX]

Originally Posted by Sannah

River, you explained something very important here. How about talking to your T about it? Empowerment...........

Originally Posted by Sannah

River, you explained something very important here. How about talking to your T about it? Empowerment...........

........starting here, - actually, it was your logo that I was thinking of when I processed all that happened. When I first read it, I thought, yeah I know, like just another platitude, but it has been coming in useful... when I tried to stop her from moving me on - thats what I thought I was doing, taking responsibility, like you say, 'imperative'

I doubt I'll be talking to her about this as that was a try out session, and if I'm to be true to myself I'd be a goof to go back. But then theres always this part of me that wants to go back to difficult relationship............ and 'solve' it, I'd love to go and talk to her about 'empowerment', however, just for today, Im postponing that... : )

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by pegasus

Safety and trust are the two biggies.

same here. I told T: the two applications I always have running in the background are (a) safety, and (b) trust (or lack of trust). she said, for c-ptsd that's what you would expect.

[RiverX]

Originally Posted by chaotic13

My self exile usually occurs when I fear that others are using me to serve themselves. It for me it is not about the other person, it is about me feeling like I am safe, aware of ulterior motives and am in control of whether you not I can disengage when I want to.

Oh! thats interesting, thanks for this because from how you describe safety, is exactly what I mean by integrity.
".........manipulating or using me to serve themselves.........."
.

[RiverX]

Originally Posted by pegasus

(((((((( RiverX ))))))))

Safety and trust are the two biggies. In my view the therapist has nothing to gain by stopping you wanting to explore something further. We learn along the way that the therapist does know what they are doing! Maybe your T moved you off that subject because she knew you wouldn't be able to process it and will come back to it at a later date. My T did that many a time. Rome isn't built in a day and so we revisited stuff and strengthened the foundations.

Gosh! hi!
this is the philosophy of T. knows best.
I like to take that attitude for a massage, other than that I'm struck dumb... but thanks..

[RiverX]

Originally Posted by nowheretorun

hope its ok to jump in River... is it possible that T's might feel a need to have power, in order to give power?

.......LOL, this is what I always suspected, they want me on the floor in order to pick me up again... then they know they did thier job... EEK!

funny industry...

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by RiverX

from how you describe safety, is exactly what I mean by integrity

If the integrity (being in one piece) of the personality is in danger, then you feel danger, not safety.

[RiverX]

Originally Posted by earthmama

(((((((((((((((((((((RiverX)))))))))))))))))))))))))


I don't know if ANY of this is helpful....but this is my experience.

thank you for this (((((((( EarthM. ))))))

I read this before going out, and it made me realise something at a deeper level.
I can see a huge difference between what I have needed and you and maybe - even most other people. And hence why it has been so difficult for me.

I've already filled this thread up with my own replies, but this with you, and a previous one with sunrise has made me realise something, its a big thing, about developmental arrest, and probably belongs in another post of its own.

hi mouse..........

... thats what I do. I think. A lot. this is one of those things I'm not likely to stop. It has been life saving for me. it sure doesnt act as an alternative for feelings, .. its a search for solutions I think... oh dear there I go again!!

[RiverX]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

If the integrity (being in one piece) of the personality is in danger, then you feel danger, not safety.

YES, exactly, thats the point.

r.

[Sannah]

Wow, you remembered my signature! That is too cool! It has certainly worked for me......

Originally Posted by RiverX;941512if I'm to be true to myself I'd be a goof to go back. But then theres always this part of me that wants to go back to difficult relationship............ and [I

'solve'[/i] it, I'd love to go and talk to her about 'empowerment', however, just for today, Im postponing that... : )

Hmmmm, so you don't feel that it is worthwhile to work on relationships? Everything that I corrected in me I did by working through a relationship. Some relationships will suck the life out of you - run! But some you learn a lot from them if they are safe and with reasonably healthy people. If you talk to your T about this I can almost guarantee you will learn something very valuable from it........... You will learn how to empower yourself and you will learn what you do now which takes away your power.........

[nowheretorun]

Originally Posted by RiverX

.......LOL, this is what I always suspected, they want me on the floor in order to pick me up again... then they know they did thier job... EEK!

funny industry...

hahaha, that is funny i spose well.... it wouldnt be nice of them to knock you down (certain exclusions may apply), but to step you down, comfortably, as many here express... sending hopes

[RiverX]

Originally Posted by Sannah

Wow, you remembered my signature! That is too cool! It has certainly worked for me......


Hmmmm, so you don't feel that it is worthwhile to work on relationships? Everything that I corrected in me I did by working through a relationship. Some relationships will suck the life out of you - run! But some you learn a lot from them if they are safe and with reasonably healthy people. If you talk to your T about this I can almost guarantee you will learn something very valuable from it........... You will learn how to empower yourself and you will learn what you do now which takes away your power.........

well, heh, I could try this one .... umm...

I apprecaite, because you are responding to me, but I have a dilemma which is that I dont want to lose connection becuase of my frequent fear of having no connection with anyone. On the other hand, what you say is doesnt seem to really connect with what I said.
For example, saying 'so you dont feel its worthiwhile to work on relationships'

I wonder - where did that come from>?
this seems to contradict your wonderful signature, by suggesting I should not take responsibility of making my assessment.

....

[RiverX]

Originally Posted by nowheretorun

hahaha, that is funny i spose well.... it wouldnt be nice of them to knock you down (certain exclusions may apply), but to step you down, comfortably, as many here express... sending hopes

ahh, surrender can be so alluring... but then what do they do? they tell you you've got to get up and leavve after 50 minutes!

.... and not only that, they keep sending these bills - big ones! .. I dunno.. interesting people, but funny behaviour...

[nowheretorun]

River

i wouldnt go someplace i wasnt certain was safe either unless i took with me a set of tools and safety supplies that would at least assist me in trying, if not saving me

it is smart imo to reserve a bit of skepticism about matters always, trust is built slow, over time, and even then, it is not wise to release complete self protection imo.. at some point in the relationship we can feel if its working, and follow that lead until it takes us towards the next place.. our feelings of joy, too spare, tell us if we are on the right track i think but i am not you and i dont know your own exact feeling of satisfaction... for me, it is the freedom to be without fear... knowing that gives me a place to start towards, and i begin in the place that i am...

i hope this makes sense or helps..

[MissCharlotte]

Hi River,

I don't really know much about personality disorders but:
For me, safety is the defining factor in a relationship. When I feel safe, I am okay with the other. I know that this is directly related to my childhood experiences. I sometimes don't even feel safe with myself. BUT I can understand the integrity piece of this puzzle because if a person has integrity then they will be safe to be with. So maybe the subjectivity of the topic is what's at play here. Is Safety in the eyes of the beholder?

Take care

[chaotic13]

Originally Posted by MissCharlotte

Hi River,

So maybe the subjectivity of the topic is what's at play here. Is Safety in the eyes of the beholder?

I think this comment is true. She has shown nothing but integrity in her dealings with me and in my limited observation of her interacting with other patients. However, sometimes I don't feel safe and still withdraw.(In this context I'm referring to emotionally safe--physically, I can take her )

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by RiverX

what you say is doesnt seem to really connect with what I said.
For example, saying 'so you dont feel its worthiwhile to work on relationships'

I wonder - where did that come from>?

this seems to contradict your wonderful signature, by suggesting I should not take responsibility of making my assessment.

Oops, misunderstanding on my part ! Sorry! This was my interpretation of what I bolded when I quoted you!

[RiverX]

Thanks Sannah, Ms C, nowhere, chaotic,

Yes, it all helps.

"...........BUT I can understand the integrity piece of this puzzle because if a person has integrity then they will be safe to be with. So maybe the subjectivity of the topic is what's at play here.............."

I think this is that is what I was thinking, integrity goes a bit deeper, and if there is integrity, then theres safety as well as a lot of other things.

.. it goes deeper because its to do with a fundamental attitude. I know this can seem pedantic, but actually, in it can work out important. And in the psych literature, as far as i could find, its such an under acknowledged concept.

I rememver doing a big Insight workshop, full of 'growth' and 'seeking ones self fulfilment'. A woman shared about having an affair with a married man, the facilitator said something like, "if its not hurting you, well that's ok" yet some of the slogans belonging to this scheme were "dont hurt yourself, dont hurt others"

so... wheres the integrity? In this case, wheres the concern about hurting the other woman for example? I'm not saying I havent done bad things and hurt others, but its just I'm saying this is too often off the map as an aim..
...

[nowheretorun]

i see what you are saying River and thank for letting me respond to you here.. it is a lofty aim but, it must be aimed for i know because without the target, who can aim?