Please help me understand stoicism.

I hope all of you realize, when I post these things, I'm not trying to blast my husband. I'm only trying to understand how he thinks, and since verbal communication is a weak area for him, he can't very well tell me.

Stoic personality. Won't admit to anything that might mean weakness. He's been sick for the past three days. Both on Thursday and on Friday, he came near to calling in, but decided to work anyway. (He's a bus driver. He promises he would call in if he felt so bad that public safety is compromised. Nothing has happened, and I do have to trust his judgment, but as someone who is unable to drive, the thought of riding a bus operated by an ill driver is a bit unnerving to me.)

Today is Saturday. He can't eat the supper I cooked. It's not the food, he assures me, it's just that he doesn't feel well. But yesterday he was perfectly fine to drive a bus? Why didn't he just doggone call in sick?

That's not all. In the time since we've been married, I've seen him lose both grandmothers and a dearly beloved uncle, and not act as if he feels a thing. Yes, I know. People have different grieving styles. He doesn't have to go into massive sobs. In fact, I couldn't even picture him doing that. It doesn't fit him. But... not even a sigh and a bowed head, or a few quiet, reflective moments alone? I don't understand that. One of his grandmothers saved his horrifically abusive childhood from being a *total* hell on earth. He adored her. But when she died, he acted like nothing happened.

When our elderly cat had a stroke, a little over a year ago, we almost lost her. As she lay unconscious, he patted and stroked her, silently saying his goodbyes, and his eyes were wet. It was a moving scene. Well, to confess to my own part, I probably shouldn't have mentioned it later, but when I did, it was only to tell him I understood his feelings. Tuffy is such a loving companion, and he has had her for 8 of her probably more than 13 years. But no-no-no, impossible, I was looking at him wrong. No tears in HIS eyes. Ever. For any reason. Not even if it is perfectly human and understandable, and would actually even make me love him more than I do already. I have always had much more respect for a man who will show his emotions than for one who won't. It takes a big man to go ahead and cry. It takes a wimp to be afraid someone is going to call him a wimp if he does.

Why does it bother me so much? Maybe because he won't be vulnerable and let me feel needed? He is perfectly willing to be there for me to lean on, but he makes it clear that he certainly doesn't ever need to lean on me. Well, what am I here for, then?

Wow, lovebirdsflying, you have described my own husband practically to a "t," including the whole losing-a-pet scene, during which my husband admitted he shed tears when our dog had to be put to sleep (I wasn't there, I was too devastated) but acted at home like nothing at all was wrong. He's a scientist, so I've always ascribed it to his logical, scientific-like approach to everything. But I think it's done harm in our 16-year marriage. (And it doesn't help that I'm one of those overly emotional types who chokes up at TV advertisements!)

Anyway -- I'm not trying to hijack your thread, I swear! I just wanted to say that I can identify with pretty much everything in your post.

I wish I had some advice. I unfortunately do not, but I'm sending hugs your way, and letting you know that you're not alone in dealing with an ultra-stoic spouse. Good luck!

Sorry to post again, but I was going to ask whether you and he have tried couples therapy? Sometimes in a "safe" environment husbands feel a bit more comfortable sharing stuff -- or a skillful therapist can help him (or her) become more self-aware of the stoicism and how excluded it can make a partner feel.

He sits in on my therapy sessions, but will not go for himself. I think it's another manifestation of "don't admit to weakness." If he went to therapy on his own, it would mean acknowledging that he has a problem he cannot fix without help.

My T has been successful in convincing hubby that it is wrong to expect me NOT to feel emotions. Hubby no longer says "it's nothing to cry about" when I do. Before that, it was almost as if hubby expected the same Vulcan stoicism out of me.

***Trigger Warning***

Hubby and I both have PTSD from child abuse. What he suffered was more physical, while mine was more emotional. I am sure his beatings have something to do with it. I knew that all along, but in a joint session, T explained to me that it is not *for the reason* I thought it was. Instead of "my dad beat me for showing weakness, so now I can't cry because I'm afraid to," it is, "I refused to cry when my dad beat me, because I wouldn't give him the satisfaction."

And he has choked it off for so long that now he cannot identify emotions by name. When asked how he would FEEL if such-and-such were to happen, he answers with what he would DO if such-and-such were to happen. Yet he honestly thinks he is answering the question that was asked.

And of course, he denies any and all emotions. Example: Because of his PTSD, he sometimes has nightmares. Now and then I'll hear him crying in his sleep, ever so softly. He doesn't know he's doing it. When that happens, I roll over and hold him. He responds, snuggles in toward me, and holds me in return. It calms him down. In the morning, he may or may not remember having had a nightmare. But even if he remembers nothing, he will FLATLY deny that he was crying in his sleep. Which leads me to the question, if he doesn't remember, how is he so certain he wasn't?

(By the way, I no longer mention to him what he does while he's having nightmares. He's never going to believe me.)

I can relate to some of the behaviour you describe in your husband, but cannot speak for him, of course. I do not share his background of abuse, but come from a family and social background where emotional expression was discouraged in men, seen as a feminine trait.
From an early age I consciously decided to practise the sort of emotional suppression you describe and by my teens it had become a destructive habit, though I was unable to see that.
After suffering psychological problems, I realised I needed to develop skills in emotional communication. It took me many years to unlearn the bad habits I developed in childhood, and some things I may never correct.
Bereavement is especially difficult. Learning to express love is easier because it can be practised daily and there is often a positive and immediate reward, emotional and/or sexual, to reinforce the new behaviour.
By contrast, dealing with loss may only happen every few years and there is no immediate payback for expressing grief. This can make the old mechanism of ignoring and storing the painful emotions a more appealing option than opening up to them. Personally, I fight hard to hold back tears at funerals but will cry for a few minutes once I am alone. It is the public exhibition of weakness I find deeply uncomfortable.
Unless a person really wants to change this, they cannot be pushed into it. Your husband might benefit from counselling, but he has to decide that himself.
Meantime, you may just have to learn to live with him as he is. These deep-rooted coping mechanisms are deeply ingrained and unlikely to change unless he becomes motivated to tackle them.
It is encouraging that he has attended some joint sessions with you, maybe that would be an easier path for him to follow?

I would go back to "why does it bother me". It could be, if the T was correct as to not giving his father the satisfaction, you are wishing you could be "better" than his father, that he'd give you the satisfaction, could make him "better". But, if it bothers him to be told he's cried or expressed some tender emotion though, why do you poke at that and try to bother him?

I'm sorry he does not feel well and won't go to the doctor. You could share how you feel about that, that his not going to the doctor when he may have something seriously wrong and be "crippled" from it (have a heart attack later or collapse or something) only because he didn't go to the doctor to get it checked out could leave you vulnerable and angry that he didn't go, not to mention left without his support at all and does he want that for you?

Good point there, on wanting to be "better" than his father, to have him trust me when for obvious reasons he couldn't trust not-so-dear old dad.

I have long ago stopped telling him when he cries in his sleep. But I have just found out, there is more to it than the fact that he will never believe me. I also asked this question in a marriage forum at a Christian site, and someone pointed out an interesting fact: His nightmares, and his expressing in sleep what he cannot express while he is awake, are caused by his subconscious working something out. If I tell him about it the next morning, that puts it back in his conscious, and he represses it again, which undoes the progress. We are both best off if I do exactly what I have been doing--hold him when it happens, let him respond by snuggling in to me as he does, and then forget it when he's awake. By responding to me in his sleep, he is showing me that his subconscious knows he needs me. If, the next morning, he remembers having a nightmare, he will tell me about it without my asking. I no longer mention how he was reacting to it at the time.

Hubby couldn't go to church yesterday. It is midmorning now, but his work day doesn't start for another three hours, and he is still asleep. He will probably go to work. He does say he feels better.

There are some things we can just accept when they aren't critical to the functioning of the marriage. Understanding his past is very important to accepting how & why he reacts the way he does.

It is important however for him to be more careful about his health. So many things can show up as something else when they are life & death conditions. My father had flu like symptoms......after he had already had 9 bypass surgery 5 years prior & they had just changed his meds.....but thinking it was the flu & he had just gone to his heart specialist (who just changed his meds), he ignored the symptoms as being heart failure & ended up dying the morning he had decided that he would go to the Dr that day. That is extreme, yes.....I was one that would push myself constantly.....even having pneumonia....until I was really sick because I didn't think it was anything serious until I wasn't able to breath well......& I'm really bad with injuries....I will go several weeks hurting just to know if it's something that "won't just go away on it's own". It is difficult some times to know whether something is more serious than it seems & we always hate to be accused of being a hypocondriact(sp?). Sometimes it's hard to determine the line between when to go to the Dr & when not to. Sometimes we just have to trust their judgment & pray that it's good.

Hubby is just waking up. He's a little cough-y and wheeze-y, but he is not feverish, where he had been running a low-grade. He'll probably go to work today.

I would like to talk to him about my concern for his health, but I don't want to come off as a nag.

Hubby decided not to go in today after all. He says he doesn't need a doctor, but he does look washed out. Please send him good thoughts.