[JoeS21]

Relationships can be between individuals or groups of individuals, friends, professionals, people you do business with, etc. So on that note, I'm looking for suggestions about how to handle a situation.

Two weeks ago, I was notified that my deferment on a student loan was about to expire. Since I cannot afford to make the payment, I called the student loan office immediately to request a deferral. Someone by the name of Mr. S answered the phone and said he would send me the application for deferral in the mail.

By the 31st (or 2 weeks after the call), I had still not received that application so I called back the student loan office to ask about whether I should make a payment or try for a retroactive deferment. And here's where the "situation" starts: Mr. S answered the phone again, but this time his entire side of the conversation was completely inappropriate. From the time Mr. S answered the phone to the time Mr. S hung up, he was angry, abusive, and condescending - and kept forcing me to listen to his tangents and answer accusatory inappropriate questions.

(A professional person would have provided me with an answer to my question and ended the call. Instead, Mr. S was clearly in a bad mood before I called as he immediately snapped at me in an angry almost growling out-of-control tone repeating accusatory questions like, "Why didn't you call earlier, sweetie? Why did it take you until now to call?" ---No, you didn't miss anything. There was no reasonable basis for those nasty suggestive questions. --- Mr. S continues, "We got a mail forwarding address back from the post office. Why didn't you tell us that you moved, sweetie?" ---Okay, that question would have been almost fine if it were not loudly and angerly barked at me. Me: "Uh, Mr. S, I'm a guy and I would appreciate it if you would stop calling me sweetie. And should I just pay the bill? ....Mr. S ignores my question and goes on another tangent.... no answer to my question, another, "sweetie" quote... Me: "Please don't call me sweetie, that's condescending." Again, no response from Mr. S other than another accusatory snapping tangent...etc. etc.)

I made very little progress on that call - and frankly I would have hung up if I didn't need something from that office. I've dealt with that office before and everyone there seems to back each other no matter how crappy anyone there behaves. Eventually Mr. S did do me a small favor in saying that he will waive the late fee if I call him on Monday. However, I'm really not looking forward to another abusive call. (And I would have much rather just paid than listen to that awful 30 minute accusatory angry tangent that still has me feeling ill over 12 hours later. I'm highly sensitive and things like that trigger me.)

If, he ends up getting my loan deferred retroactively, I may overlook this and be glad I'm done with him for the duration of the deferment. On the other hand, it was awful having to answer over 30 minutes of unnecessary accusatory questions, as well as, deal with the name calling. My sense is if I put in any sort of complaint that my loans (through that office) would NEVER be approved for deferment again - since approval is a subjective process and I could easily be denied unofficially because someone doesn't like me.

Here's what I'm thinking. I think I should keep record of these calls and what is said. Then once my loan is paid off, I could make a copy of those notes and provide them to the diversity office. Poor people and guys with AIS should not have to suffer 30 minute long abusive lectures/cross-examining in order to get a deferment. I admit that I was re-traumatized by that and left shaking uncontrollably. If I had a witness to that call, say it were on speaker phone or something, the university could probably get sued for my counseling bills plus restitution. Too bad I have no obvious witness. Aside from the legal stuff, just considering this whole post, what do you think I should do?

What are your thoughts?

***********

I might also add that besides the experience with Mr. S, the deferment process is the most ridiculous one I've ever encountered. In order to be considered for an economic hardship deferment, over 15 pieces of documentation are required including a lease, complete tax 1040 form and schedules, all account numbers to any financial account including complete credit card numbers and all statements to those accounts, etc. And this has to be done every 3 months. It took me hours to find and organize all of this documentation, not including the trip to the copy center (by a friend on my behalf).

I'm thinking that I'm going to start keeping a log book with dates, times, and descriptions of events directly related to poverty and disability that cause excessive emotional distress and waste excessive amounts of time. I just don't think that most people understand how much more of a burden some people have to face when dealing with low-brow operations (like the above) that only serve (or dis-serve) poor people.

[hamster-bamster]

Why can't you have written exchanges with the office instead?

[Altered Moment]

If you have direct federal student loans you may try for a forbearance. I am not sure of the rules.

I know you can create an account and manage all this stuff yourself if you want to and eliminate Mr. S. I did it myself years ago and got forbearances.

Direct Loans?Deferment and Forbearance

https://studentloans.gov/myDirectLoan/index.action

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by JoeS21

***********

I might also add that besides the experience with Mr. S, the deferment process is the most ridiculous one I've ever encountered. In order to be considered for an economic hardship deferment, over 15 pieces of documentation are required including a lease, complete tax 1040 form and schedules, all account numbers to any financial account including complete credit card numbers and all statements to those accounts, etc. And this has to be done every 3 months. It took me hours to find and organize all of this documentation, not including the trip to the copy center (by a friend on my behalf).

I am not sure what you are objecting to. The documentation you list is standard. What did you expect? Yes, it took you hours to organize all of this documentation, but it was a one time deal. In three months, you will only need to add 3 cycles of credit card statements - the 1040 etc. will not change. And that you now have your affairs in order is a good thing rather than a bad thing. Why you took the trip to the copy center and not sent pdf attachments is also unclear. If you are worried about confidentiality, you can put a "lock" on the pdf files and send the key to the recipient via a text message.

All of those problems seem entirely solvable, and your judging Mr S seems a little odd. Yes, calling you a sweetie was condescending, but it was not abusive.

[hvert]

I would find someone in the university to complain to NOW. Start with the discrimination office, but the student loan office needs to treat people professionally. They can't call customers sweetie or talk to them abusively, even if the customer is difficult. You don't have to wait to complain about this.

I also agree that I would try to do more of this communication via mail or online.

[IceCreamKid]

Here are my thoughts and they apply to many of your posts. Do you receive counseling? I would strongly suggest that you do, to help you get over your chronic victimization and to help you with your communication issues.

No one would call me "sweetie" more than once in a business call. I'd hang up on him and immediately go up the food chain to complain. It's not too late for you to write out what transpired and to send it to the boss of this man.

But let me also add some information that I think you and so many people can really use. Be timely and organized when dealing with bureaucratic entities. The employees are frequently over-burdened with work and jaded towards sad stories, excuses and requests for special treatment. If they are civil servants, it can be the luck of the draw whether you get a decent person or a devil answering your questions.

All of your financial information should be organized. Your medical information and educational stuff should be too. I understand it can be overwhelming to start organizing piles of stuff, but a little a day leads to a good set of files for future reference.

Today when so many companies and organizations seem to have thrown honesty and decency to the wind, your good records might be the key to you getting what you need from some agency that might otherwise cheat you out of laziness or corruption.

I'll go back to what I said before, too. If you are not in counseling, I recommend it. You're obviously intelligent, but your odd, over-elaborate manner of communicating and your immediate fallback to victim position is going to continue to hamper your getting your needs met.

[JoeS21]

IceCreamKid:

Maybe I wasn't clear.

1. Tasks like copying and printing are MUCH EASIER for non-physically disabled people with 10-cents to spare. If you can't pay the copy center, etc. things become more difficult.

2. A good deal of what they requested wasn't available or was incorrect.

3. When I'm triggered, I have more difficulty communicating. I would like to be in counseling, but truly have NO financial access to counseling. Every dollar counts right now, whether it's on a credit card, credit, or not. (Public assistance doesn't help me much because they don't take my student loan payments into consideration. That makes me over $1000 a month poorer than they calculate. At the moment, I'm playing the credit card shuffle and trying not to go bankrupt.)

Here's what I think you missed:

4. As mentioned in the OP, people who complain to the loan office get punished by the loan office, by denial of service. If you complain, they will reject your application and deny you forbearance or deferment. It is a subjective process and they are allowed to do that. You sound like someone who thinks they can CONTROL other people. In this case, you don't have the authority to do so or any proof.

5. If you complain, the whole office will turn against you because they back each other. This office does NOT behave in a professional way and they are kind of proud of that. Naive self-righteous people get slaughtered. (If you're going against them, you have to really know what you're doing and be ready for a long battle.)

Other stuff:

I'm in my twenties and still learning to communicate professionally in different settings. My experience is that in this setting, most people like details or tend to ask for them.

I have consulted an attorney about this, so I disagree with your lay-man's diagnosis of "chronic victimization," perhaps that's your [made up condition goes here] acting up?

Mods: You think the part in bold in the quote below is against TOS? There's a saying that goes, "Say what you mean without being mean when you say it." I would say that IceCreamKid is being mean by attempting to diagnose me in sort of a crappy insulting way.

Originally Posted by IceCreamKid

Here are my thoughts and they apply to many of your posts. Do you receive counseling? I would strongly suggest that you do, to help you get over your chronic victimization and to help you with your communication issues.

No one would call me "sweetie" more than once in a business call. I'd hang up on him and immediately go up the food chain to complain. It's not too late for you to write out what transpired and to send it to the boss of this man.

But let me also add some information that I think you and so many people can really use. Be timely and organized when dealing with bureaucratic entities. The employees are frequently over-burdened with work and jaded towards sad stories, excuses and requests for special treatment. If they are civil servants, it can be the luck of the draw whether you get a decent person or a devil answering your questions.

All of your financial information should be organized. Your medical information and educational stuff should be too. I understand it can be overwhelming to start organizing piles of stuff, but a little a day leads to a good set of files for future reference.

Today when so many companies and organizations seem to have thrown honesty and decency to the wind, your good records might be the key to you getting what you need from some agency that might otherwise cheat you out of laziness or corruption.

I'll go back to what I said before, too. If you are not in counseling, I recommend it. You're obviously intelligent, but your odd, over-elaborate manner of communicating and your immediate fallback to victim position is going to continue to hamper your getting your needs met.

[JoeS21]

THANKS EVERYONE. I've read all of your replies and am open to hearing more.

Best options (IMO, as of now):

1. Lose the battle and win the war. - Let them be nasty as long as tolerating "nasty" means that I financial benefit by getting my forbearance/deferment. (I may need to find some kind of support to work on dealing with "nasty" without being triggered by it.)

2. Go to the diversity/discrimination office immediately. - I would say that suffering verbal abuse should NOT be a prerequisite for deferment/forbearance approval.

3. Emailing, although in the past that's only resulted in a reply that says, "Call me."

It's either going to be 3 and 1, or 2 and 3 at this point unless I get more ideas.

[JoeS21]

This loan is through the university and you cannot manage it online. It's an unprofessional subjective system. I still might try to refinance it in order to get a better servicing company.

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

If you have direct federal student loans you may try for a forbearance. I am not sure of the rules.

I know you can create an account and manage all this stuff yourself if you want to and eliminate Mr. S. I did it myself years ago and got forbearances.

Direct Loans?Deferment and Forbearance

https://studentloans.gov/myDirectLoan/index.action

[JoeS21]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

I am not sure what you are objecting to. The documentation you list is standard. What did you expect? Yes, it took you hours to organize all of this documentation, but it was a one time deal. In three months, you will only need to add 3 cycles of credit card statements - the 1040 etc. will not change. And that you now have your affairs in order is a good thing rather than a bad thing. Why you took the trip to the copy center and not sent pdf attachments is also unclear. If you are worried about confidentiality, you can put a "lock" on the pdf files and send the key to the recipient via a text message.

All of those problems seem entirely solvable, and your judging Mr S seems a little odd. Yes, calling you a sweetie was condescending, but it was not abusive.

None of my other student loans require 50 pages of documentation from over 15 different documents every 3 months. And most of them can be managed online, unlike this one.

[~Christina]

Why not go to the closest "legal aid" office? They will be able to assist you in dealing with this situation and/or set you up with people than can and will help you.

I do agree that dealing with this through email is a much better option, as there will be a paper trail. I'm sure Legal Aid would agree.

Good luck

[hamster-bamster]

It is a shame that they cannot be managed online. Your criticism of IceCreamKid is illogical, unwarranted, and impolite. That you consulted an attorney has no bearing on the victimization, because an attorney is in no better position to "diagnose" chronic victimization than IceCreamKid, and most likely is in a worse position that IceCreamKid.

In terms of practical advice, just write that you due to your disability, you prefer written communications.

In Boston there must be free to low cost resources for therapy - interns working to get the requisite hours for the licensure exams, community clinics, etc. You are not in the middle of nowhere - you should be able to find counseling. Group therapy is far cheaper than individual therapy and for you, would be far, far more useful - a community clinic offering group therapy would mean $10 a session, perhaps $20 at the most, and would go a long way towards your acquiring social skills.

Based on what you have written, IceCreamKid was spot on - your manner of communicating places you at odds even with people who are trying to assist you and must work very much against you in settings where people are not trying to assist you but are just doing their job. In the end, as IceCreamKid put, you are putting your own needs in jeopardy - your communication style might leave you feeling righteous, but won't get your pragmatic needs met. Right now you have a great opportunity to make it right with IceCreamKid by offering public apologies - since you offended IceCreamKid in public and made a public complaint to the moderators (which meant that you are falling back into the victim position, and that, in turns, proves IceCreamKid right), apologies should be made in public as well. Every person makes mistakes, and many of them. It is in correcting them gracefully that becoming a better person happens. Again, group therapy is far more useful and far cheaper in your case, so the best advice not just for this specific situation, but overall is to find community group therapy resources.

I still do not understand why copying was necessary. If it is because the original documents were hard copies, then please scan them and keep them as pdf files on your computer, so that next time, you will not need to endure the copying expense again for the same docs. Getting in the habit of scanning (digitizing) any important paper record that comes your way instantly is great (I am not walking the walk at this time, but I can talk the talk because in the past I did walk the walk and am still reaping the benefits). You also need to organize your digital storage. For that you need to determine your type of thinking - some people prefer folders, others tags, some prefer storage outside of email, others prefer sending emails with pdf attachments to themselves - figure out what would work for you in the long run by playing with different options. If you must pay the copying center, it is more economical to pay for one time scanning than for multiple times of hard copy copying. I hope it makes sense and is doable.

[JoeS21]

Originally Posted by ~Christina

Why not go to the closest "legal aid" office? They will be able to assist you in dealing with this situation and/or set you up with people than can and will help you.

I do agree that dealing with this through email is a much better option, as there will be a paper trail. I'm sure Legal Aid would agree.

Good luck

Thanks for your response.

The thing is, I'm not sure what legal aid could do given that they don't have authority to change the department that services my loan or to even discipline them. I cannot successfully sue given that I have no evidence. (Unless by "legal aid" you mean the diversity/discrimination office because I still think that they MIGHT be able to help.)

I plan to email on Monday and also suspect that the reply to my email will be to call the office.

This wouldn't be as big of an issue if I didn't find Mr. S's rants/tangents psychologically triggering. But listening to them makes me physically ill and I become incapable of thinking and communicating up to my normal level as part of the psychological impact of that.

So, I guess that the university disability office might be another avenue/option I could take to see if through them, I could work directly with a loan department manager and skip over Mr. S permanently.

[JoeS21]

Here's my plan for Monday so far:

I plan to email the completed deferment form and all documentation to Mr. S since I only have his email. If his response indicates that I'm all set, terrific! If he says to call him, I will not call. I will instead mail my deferment form with delivery confirmation*. I may have to suffer a late fee, but so be it. I might also try to call the loan office hoping someone other than Mr. S might answer. If Mr. S answers, I can simply hang up. In order to protect my sanity, I will lie and say that the call just got disconnected if asked about it. I don't lie unless it is a last resort for self protection. That's about where I feel i am, left without other options.

*If I send it in the mail, I have all month to try to get on the phone with a non-Mr. S, but I will have to find someone to confirm the approval or denial of my application.

[hvert]

I would contact the disability office (sorry for my typo earlier). Ask for an advocate to help you work with the student loan department. I do think you would get one person assigned to you in that case.

It's also entirely reasonable, as someone else suggested, to demand that all of this be done via email in order to generate a paper trail -- which you really need if this office is retaliatory.

You also have the right to ask for a supervisor if Mr. S picks up the phone.