[WholeEnchilada]

I need a crash course on reading people. There's someone I've been casual friends with for a while. But she's very hot and cold with me, shy, confident, extrovert, introvert, outgoing and reserved all in one.

I can't quite read her, what she's up to, what her motiviation or intention is.

Can't tell if she's been flirting and backed off because she's married, whether she's trying to make hubby jealous, just likes the attention, maybe she's just a responder rather than an initiator.

I miss the friendship and I don't know what to make of the way she avoids me one minute, my best friend the next.

I need to try to read her better.

I can give you a great long post about how what's happened if anyone wants to try analysing this.

[kaliope]

hi wholeenchilada
why not just talk to her about it? instead of trying to read her, try to communicate with her. welcome to psych central. you will find we have several forums where you can post about your concerns and receive feedback from other members. you will get a lot of support here. again, welcome

[~Christina]

Yes I agree with Kaliope. Best to just ask her. If shes just playing games best to cut ties with her.

Welcome to PC

[hamster-bamster]

I respectfully disagree with the above - I do not think it would be helpful to talk to her, for two reasons.

Scenario 1. She is genuinely confused, and her sending you such mixed signals is explainable by her confusion - perhaps even internal torment, who knows. When a person is confused, she cannot give you good answers.

Scenario 2. She is playing games with you (I am leaning towards this one but not ruling out Scenario 1). So your talking with her would mean to her that you want her to stop playing games with you and be forthright. Well, had she wanted to be forthright, she would have been forthright - she chose to play games because she enjoys it. It then is up to you as to what YOU would do.

So I would continue as before, trying - on your own - to figure out which scenario fits the situation with her. Does it make any sense?

[WholeEnchilada]

Oh real answers. Just the kind of answers I was hoping for. Thank you.

In this people have said Im obsessed by her. But Im really obsessed about the situation because, to me it's unfathomable and as Mr Man, Im powerless to do anything about because I can't read it. I have no control over it.

I did ask her if I had done anything to upset her earlier in the year, but she said she was just busy. Then she got a better, a bit more forthright, more friendly, now she's slipping back to hot/cold.

I don't want to look like an oversensitive idiot, especially because she has such an excellent reputation. I think you're right hamster, and that's exactly my logic. She's actually a strong, down to earth individual who's quite confident. If she wanted to be forthright, she would be forthright. So if she's playing games, she will continue to play games. But if she is confused, no answer is going to be less confused until she stops being confused.

Third scenario, Im oversensitive and Im completely misreading what's going on.

I'll leave it there for now, but I think I will have to give you the full run down later. Trouble is, I will look obsessive. Im not, the problem is, Im just stuck in a situation that I can't read and being a group dynamic, it's hard to step back. It's doubly hard to step back when the person you're trying to step back from runs hot/cold. Im also very wordy when it comes to writing.

[hvert]

I agree with hamster-bamster. If someone is sending mixed messages, they aren't going to be able to tell you why.

Personally, if I get any sense that a married person is flirting with me, I step away from the relationship. I don't want to be a party to messing up someone else's marriage, whether they are acting intentionally or not.

[WholeEnchilada]

Thank you for the welcome everyone and thank you for the input so far.

hvert, I agree regarding stepping away from the relationship. Problem is, I can't read people. Could you imagine if I went to her and addressed it, or even tried to put an end to a friendship because I've misread what's happening. I've got to continue to analyse.

So at the risk of being called obsessive, here's what I've seen so far.

I've known her for a few years and she usually keeps her distance with me. Sometimes she can be the most inviting and welcoming person ever but I feel I need to constantly break the ice. It's possible she's just a responder and talks when I talk to her. But she doesn't seem closed off with others and goes to them with ease. That's the first bit that doesn't add up. I think if I make an effort, I could get to know her.

I don't know if she's shy or extroverted. One site I read said that if an extrovert likes you, their laughing, talking, touching and eye contact will make it obvious. If they don't like you, they will talk to everyone but you. If a shy person likes you, they may be even more introverted around you, but if they don't like you, they'll treat you normally.

I don't agree with this analysis. She's exhibited all of that behaviour to me alone. In general, she exhibits characteristics of both extrovert and introvert, shyness and confidence, reserved and outgoing. I can't read her. She seems confident enough to talk to people, butt in on a conversation, join in with a group. She's not lacking there. But she does get embarrassed easily and seems reserved. A lot of mixed signals.

Our friendship over the years was increasing bit by bit. I was delighted to be talking to a bright, admirable and charismatic lady with a wealth of knowledge and experience to learn from, someone I looked up to. I could also befriend the husband through her as we had some things in common.

She started to behave a little out of the orindary. Little, progressing interactions, fixing my collar, jokes about divorce, touches of my arm, indrect compliments. Even the way she sat by me didn't feel normal for her. She was too full on, a bit flustered, like she had to think about it and seek me out. Not normal.

She only seems touchy feely with her husband, no one else. Not that I focus on her, she just sits near me.

I try not to ready anything into this. Ego gets a boost if its flirting. I stayed friendly and polite and didn't reciprocate. Almost overnight, she backed off completely. She avoided me and could barely look me in the face. She would talk to everyone around me. From time to time, she became full on again. Minding my own business chatting to a friend, she comes up out of nowhere to make a joke about something on Facebook and disappeared. My reaction was "what?". She comes up and makes a joke in front of my friend about my bum. It was not sexual, more about the smell. She still mentioned it. Innocuous at the time, but in context? I don't know. The way she did it too, without addressing me, just blurting it out and disappearing.

I was upset with the avoidance laced with over the top interactions. I put up with it for as long as possible and asked if I did anything wrong. She said no and that she was just busy. I tried to rekindle the friendship and tried to talk more. She then seemed to get a bit closer, asking for a dance and a kiss on the cheek since. Nothing formal, just friendly and polite.

Assuming this is platonic, I think great, she's back to her old self and the friendship can progress. I ask her for some advice, she gave me a time when I could see her when the husband and kids are around. Then she changes her mind last minute and suggests I see her right then because the husband and kids are out. Maybe the husband and kids are superfluous in the decision. Maybe she just means she's free and is terrible at expressing herself. But it seemed strange to me.

I was invited to a group lunch but I couldn't make it at the last minute. She sent me a message to say that they missed me. That is nice? But then I remember that there are other people on the group who Im closer with who didn't message me. Why her? I explained why I couldn't make it, and she cut me off with a quick reply. Thinking about it now, did she want something more?

Even now, she still seems to avoid me, barely acknowledges me, sometimes doesn't respond when I say Hello and doesn't say Hello to me first. At the height of her friendship, she always said Hello first, always acknowledged me in public and private. After ignoring me, sometimes, hours later, she will come up to talk in private. She will give her attention to other men quite happily - her right to do so. I just don't like people being rude then turning on the charm hours later as if nothing happened. I've even caught her looking at me - only because I wanted to speak to the person she's speaking with, or checking out something happening behind her. There's nothing behind me for her to be looking at apart from the wall, so she either likes the shade of blue on the wall, or she's looking at me.

If she saw me as a threat, why would she seek me out to sit with me? Either this is 100% platonic or Im no threat to her and something else is going on. Maybe she likes me and is testing the water? Maybe she likes the attention? Maybe she's trying to make her husband jealous because it is easier to talk to her when he's around, but she will still talk to me from time to time and as above, make a joke about my bum.

One other thing I realised, she's less than direct with me. Makes me think about the times she's been short with me - like when I explained why I couldn't be at the lunch, or when I didn't reciprocate. Maybe she wants me to reciprocate? Maybe she wanted me to tell her I missed her! But that's the danger of reading anything between the lines - you can twist it to prove anything.

I can't think she likes me - she's happy in her marriage. She doesn't seem like a game player - great reputation. So I don't think she's making her husband jealous either and the timing doesn't fit.

Im back to mixed signals, non direct communication.

She'll ignore me one day, act like my best friend the next. She's definitely not shy, and she's more open with others than with me. Which is frustrating because that's all I want. When I decide I want nothing to do with her, she's in my face as my best friend!

I miss a friendship with a delightful charming woman and her whole family. Something feels off and I want to figure out what she's up to. Im not good at reading people.

Is there another way of looking at this? Have I done something? How can I read her better, her reasoning, her intention? I can't respond and can't address what's happening because I don't have enough information.

Curiosity has taken over at this point. I don't expect or want anything except to recover a good friendship. The problems make me aware of things about myself that I want to change, like overcoming my shyness and confidence.

[JustShakey]

Welllll, if it were me, Hamster's scenario #1 would apply. I don't know how to do close friendships. I also appear very confident and together - as long as people don't get too close, then I panic and don't know what to do. And people get pissed off with me and think I'm playing games. It kinda stinks. I would love to have some close friends, but... Well, I'm working on it...

[WholeEnchilada]

Originally Posted by JustShakey

Welllll, if it were me, Hamster's scenario #1 would apply. I don't know how to do close friendships. I also appear very confident and together - as long as people don't get too close, then I panic and don't know what to do. And people get pissed off with me and think I'm playing games. It kinda stinks. I would love to have some close friends, but... Well, I'm working on it...

Now that's an interesting thought. Of course what if you were the one getting close then backing off? Im probably quite like you in that respect, I look together and confident. But Im not. Im trying to push myself to talk to more people and I don't avoid people, I just tell people "Im shy...". They're getting it.

[WholeEnchilada]

Just a quick bump, see if anyone has read my long post. And to also say...

One of the reasons I think this affects me so much, is my ex. I hate when people say one thing and do another, when they come up with excuses (as opposed to reasons) and are not direct.

I can't read between the lines, tell me straight. Being busy, is no excuse to be rude. Apologising and say you didn't see me there or just simply didn't think, is better to me because it means you know you stuffed up and you're not looking to shift the blame away from yourself.

My Ex used to tell me how much she loved me, but in the time we had together, she had everything her own way, never bought me anything, was routinely late (sometimes by upto an hour and a half without so much as a text) showing massive disrespect.

That's I think my problem here, these old feelings are being stirred back where you get the inkling something more is happening, someone isn't being straight with you. You can't do anything about it because you don't know. If you've got it wrong, you risk a friendship.

[hvert]

I have zero interest in high maintenance friendships, so for me, if I am getting mixed signals, I just back off. If your gut is telling you that this situation is similar to another bad situation you were in, I'd go with that feeling.

Sometimes people just don't behave in ways that make sense.

[hamster-bamster]

WholeEnchilada, you need to establish ground rules, such as not waiting beyond 15 minutes. If your friend does not show up within 15 minutes of the agreed upon time, leave. 15 minutes is called "fashionably late" for a reason. More is rude and disrespectful, especially without a text. I am not saying that you are in the same situation with this woman as you were with the ex, but still, it would be hugely helpful to review your experiences and frustrations with your ex and come up with a list of ground rules.

I won't tolerate X, Y, and Z. If A happens, I will do B. If somebody is late by so much without a text, I will leave and when we finally get together, I will not place any blame but will be cheerful and nonchalant. If she asks me why I left, just say - well, I did wait for 15 minutes, but you did not show up, so I went down my todo list etc.

Then at least your experience with your ex will have counted as a learning experience - you will have taken the time to reflect and define your standards for yourself and that definition of standards and boundaries will hopefully help in future relationships.

You also need to back off from this one, not necessarily in earnest but just to stop the "you are pursuing her" dynamic, and by pursuing her I do not mean as a sexual partner, but rather mean "pursuing" in the most generalized sense: you want something from her.

If you back off, chances are that she might want something from you, but without backing off, you would not have a chance to find out.

Your situation is really tricky because it is hard to say if it is your gut instinct which is right or whether you are projecting past frustrations with the ex onto this woman. It is hard to tell. If you back off and stay off and watch your feelings, you will be in a better position to judge which is which - the gut instinct which you need to follow or the projection which you need to be critical of to some extent because it clouds your thinking. Gut instinct is for the most part right but projection is not.

[Angelique67]

I don't really see the major problem, she is someone else's wife and there's no real reason to spend a lot of time with her alone.

[WholeEnchilada]

Angelique, I don't spend any time alone with her. This is all in a group setting. Im also not looking to spend any time alone with her. But there is something she can do which I've asked if she can help with. She's said yes. Perfectly happy to catch up with them all when the husband is there.

The major problem is her push / pull which I've gone into detail with. Avoids me, ignores me, can't give me the time of day, then acts like my best friend. Gives me a date to help when husband is around, then gives me a date when the husband isn't around which I had to back off from, then she goes cold on me! The avoidance and ignorance, couldn't care less attitude coupled with sending me a text saying she missed me when I couldn't attend the lunch.

Quite frankly, I don't know whether Im coming or going. I want to be friends with everyone. Im not about to throw away a friendship on a misunderstanding. But at the same time, there's something wrong. I deserve more respect.

If she's playing games or is flirting, she has to stop. If she's mistaking my shyness for "flirtiness" then I got to set her straight. There's some problem somewhere and I want to fix it!

[Angelique67]

I still don't see what the real actual problem is. I've had so many contacts like this, and I just chalk it up to weird energy.

And I'm not trying to be difficult or anything. I don't understand why this consumes so much energy and angst on your part. You can't control her, you can only control yourself. Is she reminding you of someone else who was more important in your life, such as a relative or closer friend?

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by WholeEnchilada

If she's playing games or is flirting, she has to stop. If she's mistaking my shyness for "flirtiness" then I got to set her straight. There's some problem somewhere and I want to fix it!

You may not be able to make her stop - we have little control over what others say or do. You can control your response and your involvement, though. What do you mean by saying IF in "if she's... flirting"? "Missed" is a strong word - she sent you a text saying that she missed you, which means that she is doing something. Whether it is outright flirting or playing games is not exactly clear yet, but she is DOING SOMETHING. If you want to set her straight, you can dial up the professional tone in your communications. It might be too late in re: missed lunch, but a "sorry I could not be there" would have been appropriate - not too little and not too much. And to the point.

You said that you asked her for help. How critical is her help? Can you find another taker for the assignment? If you tell her that she does not need to do that for you anymore, you would take a major advantage out of her hands.

[WholeEnchilada]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

WholeEnchilada, you need to establish ground rules, such as not waiting beyond 15 minutes. If your friend does not show up within 15 minutes of the agreed upon time, leave. 15 minutes is called "fashionably late" for a reason. More is rude and disrespectful, especially without a text. I am not saying that you are in the same situation with this woman as you were with the ex, but still, it would be hugely helpful to review your experiences and frustrations with your ex and come up with a list of ground rules.

Definitely not the same as the Ex, I don't meet this woman on random intervals. But... My problem here is that I don't have a TODO list to go through to do anything different if someone is late for example. So I'll sit around or try to make something up just to get a bit of control back.

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

You also need to back off from this one, not necessarily in earnest but just to stop the "you are pursuing her" dynamic, and by pursuing her I do not mean as a sexual partner, but rather mean "pursuing" in the most generalized sense: you want something from her.

The help I asked for hasn't occurred, so I asked to forget it. She said she's still happy to help, so I've given her a deadline.

How do you back off from someone who keeps coming back?

I think I got to step back from pursuing friendship too.

And thank you for the delicate way you explained that.

I am backed off quite considerably because it does feel like she's being disrespectful to me - she'll be chatting to her girlfriends, I'll come up because I want a word, she finishes her chat and disappears as if I wasn't there then claim she's busy. But then comes up to talk as if nothing's wrong later.

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

If you back off, chances are that she might want something from you, but without backing off, you would not have a chance to find out.

Like my closeness to the situation (not to her) is causing my judgement to be in error? Makes sense.

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

Your situation is really tricky because it is hard to say if it is your gut instinct which is right or whether you are projecting past frustrations with the ex onto this woman. It is hard to tell. If you back off and stay off and watch your feelings, you will be in a better position to judge which is which - the gut instinct which you need to follow or the projection which you need to be critical of to some extent because it clouds your thinking. Gut instinct is for the most part right but projection is not.

I don't think Im projecting. Im just seeing similarities. But I don't think my gut instinct is right either.

[hamster-bamster]

Hey, I did not suggest that you GO through your TODO list!

I only suggested that you say so! To say that you went down the TODO list, you do not even need a TODO list. It is just a way to show that you have other things to do, which when translated into plain English simply means "I am not desperate".

[WholeEnchilada]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

You may not be able to make her stop - we have little control over what others say or do. You can control your response and your involvement, though. What do you mean by saying IF in "if she's... flirting"? "Missed" is a strong word - she sent you a text saying that she missed you, which means that she is doing something. Whether it is outright flirting or playing games is not exactly clear yet, but she is DOING SOMETHING.

I think I mean, explain some bits about my personality, and apologise if she's got the wrong end of the stick. You know, be adult, talk and stop playing games.

But thank you for that paragraph. That's actuall a huge relief to me. Something is happening. It's not all in my head. Did you read my long post on the previous page?

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

If you want to set her straight, you can dial up the professional tone in your communications. It might be too late in re: missed lunch, but a "sorry I could not be there" would have been appropriate - not too little and not too much. And to the point.

That's what Im doing. I can't help but feeling that when I respond in a professional/platonic way, that's when she goes off the radar.

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

You said that you asked her for help. How critical is her help? Can you find another taker for the assignment? If you tell her that she does not need to do that for you anymore, you would take a major advantage out of her hands.

Take this in context with my previous post, I did tell her she does not need to help, and cutting a long story short she came back telling me she was still happy to help. Get on with it then! I've given her a deadline.

[hamster-bamster]

That is good that you gave her a deadline. I have not yet read the long post - I will in a moment.

What is your backup plan if she misses the deadline?

Is there anybody else to whom you can delegate and who will actually DO THE JOB?

[WholeEnchilada]

Thanks to hamster for the private chat.

To share with the community, it continues to get stranger.

She has invited me, to, lets say, a get together with her family. Lets say we're going bowling. Ok, nice, friendly, nothing wrong with that. Exchanged a few texts tying down details, asked one other innocent follow up question, and no reply!

It's the equivalent of someone putting the phone down in the middle of a normal conversation and Im left wondering, should I text back? I don't want to annoy her and act insecure - but I just want to sort everything out.

Im just getting frustrated because I don't know where I stand. yo-yo friend is a terminology I heard. From friendly to, Im going to ignore you now...

Maybe it's a woman thing. I tried speaking to another woman the other day, she's usually friendly, again, just something normal, polite, and she just walks off as if she couldn't hear me. Perhaps she couldn't hear me.

And another, happy chatting with me outside, got inside and similar feelings of her not wanting to interact with me. It makes me paranoid that something's going on. Either that, or, it's all in my head.

My opinion as a woman...

She's totally flirting with you. Then she either gets scared that you'll reciprocate, or feels guilty because she's married.....

Just don't do this. She is a friend, just like any of your guy friends. If one of your guy friends started to touch your arm or fix your collar, I'm guessing you would literally back away. If one of your guy friends walked away in the middle of a convo, you would probably shrug your shoulders.....

Do NOT engage this woman. She is married whether she wants to be or not.

[WholeEnchilada]

Originally Posted by sophiesmom

My opinion as a woman...

She's totally flirting with you. Then she either gets scared that you'll reciprocate, or feels guilty because she's married.....

I think I determined, it wasn't quite so much what she did - other people have fixed my collar, I just thought "thanks mom". But it was more about how much she did and how she did it. There was an unusual level of focus and attention, and she behaved the same way I'd act if I fancied someone. Certainly a "should I, shouldn't I?" worrying about what your actions look like to other people, trying to drop hints without being too obvious.

Originally Posted by sophiesmom

Just don't do this.

Do what exactly? Flirt back? Be "interested"?

Originally Posted by sophiesmom

She is a friend, just like any of your guy friends. If one of your guy friends started to touch your arm or fix your collar, I'm guessing you would literally back away. If one of your guy friends walked away in the middle of a convo, you would probably shrug your shoulders.....

Do NOT engage this woman. She is married whether she wants to be or not.

She's mostly engaging me at this point, rather than the other way around. She scares me way too much for me to engage her, because I don't know what personality Im going to get. And if I have to contact her, this is the problem, rather than being natural, Im being guarded and careful not to give her anything to take the wrong way.

There's also a few loose ends which Im trying to tie up - at the end of the day, if I've misread it, I don't want to be rude, but she's kind of leaving me dangling at the moment so I can't get closure on them. I've set a deadline. Hoping for the best.

I did say to hamster, if this continues, I might just confront her and just ask her straight out if there's anything going on! Im not expecting an answer on that.

As I say though, I just gotta make sure this isn't in my head. As I say two other women, one walked away from me when I was trying to talk to her (maybe they thought I was talking to someone else) and the other one almost wanted to get away from me when we got inside the building but was fine outside.

If they make a habit of it, then I'll know something's up, but I think take it as an unusual coincidence at this point. And to be fair, neither flat out avoided me.

If a guy touched my elbow, yeah, that would creep me out. If they avoided me? I'd still be pretty annoyed. Doesn't matter who you are, have a bit of courtesy. I don't expect people to be perfect all the time, but at least acknowledge people, and say sorry if you're rude to them "sorry, was in my own bubble".

[WholeEnchilada]

Originally Posted by Angelique67

I still don't see what the real actual problem is. I've had so many contacts like this, and I just chalk it up to weird energy.

And I'm not trying to be difficult or anything. I don't understand why this consumes so much energy and angst on your part. You can't control her, you can only control yourself. Is she reminding you of someone else who was more important in your life, such as a relative or closer friend?

Sorry Angelique, didn't see your post there.

Let me just say first, whenever someone talks about their kid having Aspergers, I think... sounds familiar.

Chalk it up to weird energy. Interesting. Just don't know how to do it.

I like people to be direct with me. Once I've built up an understanding of someone, get to know their behaviour, personality, when they behave contrary, it's puzzling. When they start acting push/pull, it's puzzling. When that behaviour is just with me, it's all out panic time! What's going on, why me, is it me? As I say, no one has a bad word to say about her, so either she's behaving differently with me, or Im reading it wrong.

It is a group, I can't ostracise myself from. So somehow I have to make sense of it, deal with it. If I get it wrong, and act badly around her myself because Im being guarded, or misread the situation, I could disrupt the group. What about my reputation as well? If someone asks me why I've been off with her and I actually do explain a little, would I be seen as a disruptive/bad person? True I can't change her behaviour, though I think that's a cop out for not talking.

There's another (innocent) dynamic, I might PM you about this later.

Well, I think we've all been direct with you, in the way that you want. You don't seem too interested in any thoughts other than your own, so I'll back out of this conversation.

Good luck.