So no dating for "socially awkward" guys?

Nope. Moral of the story is that you don't know these people and who they are and what they are discussing and what's going on between them. It is like saying I saw these two random strangers are arguing outside and moral of the story is that they are a...holes

I don't want to be rude but You make no sense.

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I agree with Divine, moral of the story is that you shouldn't make assumptions about strangers.


Or anyone really.


But for you, especially strangers, because your assumptions just reinforce your already skewed perceptions, and you use it as an excuse to avoid dating, but still complain about being single...


So I agree,with all due respect, you maketh no sense.

Why not just give up.. You dismiss 99% of advice offered.. Maybe all of us offering advice have it wrong, and you are the correct one.

Your "morals" are soooooooo warped. You're going to avoid interacting with women because of how other men will act?!?! Honestly... wtf....

Men who interact with women at gyms do so because they're confident, cocky, or just don't care. Sometimes they'll make a connection, sometimes they won't. It is NOT a rule that only applies if you aren't attractive. You've made that up.

How did the girl react during the men's interaction? I find it really interesting... and enlightening... that you did not mention her reaction to the scenario at ALL. Her reaction, I would think, should have been the most important behaviour to shed light on how the three are connected.

That said - you don't have the slightest idea how they actually know each other, what their relationships are.... nothing. For all you know, the girl might actually like the one who DIDN'T act like the "white knight" and may have found the white-knight guy to be annoying or creepy.

You've got absolutely no idea!

The only things you do know about the situation:
1. She's had conversations with both men which at least seem friendly (just because it seems friendly does not mean that she's comfortable having the conversation - she's at the gym and might just be being polite)
2. The "white knight" guy acted inappropriately.
3. The "white knight" guy has interacted with more than one female in the gym.

The things you are assuming about the situation:
1. That the girl is in a relationship, or wants to be in one, with at least one of the men.
2. That she actually enjoys the conversations with them (Depending on who starts the conversations could be a bit more telling her...)
3. That she only talks with them because they're attractive
4. That the woman and white-knight man are younger than the other man
5. That she would prefer the "younger" man.
6. That only attractive men can talk to women.
7. That younger men are always the preference.
8. A lot of negative perceptions about the "white knight" guy - that he's a wackjob, looked at her stalkerish, was just looking to start violence....

.................

Like really now... can't you see how much you have made up about the situation based on your own bias??

I just want to see the "egg on face" for everyone criticizing Shadix here when it is revealed in a few short days/weeks that "white knight guy" and "the female" are in fact dating and she loved every minute of the shoving match that ensued over her.

Shadix, that woman you describe is exactly the type of one I was referring to in previous posts, and is the same type that posts the horrible stuff on the internet that you read. In public, they just stand there innocently while the men push and shove each other around over her. But, when alone with her computer, she's the one who says "I will never date a nerd" and that type of rubbish on the internet. It will in all likelihood come to light that you made the right interpretation about the situation after all. White knight guy pushing and shoving the other guy - you damn right him and that girl are dating, or at least he's planning to sleep with her or date her or something.

I know why you kept your eyes on this situation, because you identify with the guy that got shoved, and the girl is that unattainable female you seek. The best thing you can do for yourself is realize that whole kit-caboodle of them (white knight guy and the woman) so deserve each other and all the problems that they will no-doubt encounter in the future, because as you say, that guy acts like a douche-bag in public, in front of everyone in the gym, even people he doesn't know, and he's got backup lackeys standing with him ready to pummel the other guy too, who didn't even do anything wrong, except talk to the girl!

Put it out of your mind and realize people like that are not worth your trouble/effort. And remember, you are seeing the 10% of the true reality, the other 90% of girls (and guys) are not like that. These damaged people are a small yet HIGHLY demonstrative portion of the human race.

Remember this - they are the "weeds" that overgrow the other plants in a "garden". With little effort, they are always growing the most flamboyant, the tallest and the strongest, and they can get everything right. But, one day a true connoisseur who seeks quality comes along, pushes all the weeds aside or even strips it, and reaches deep down to get the good stuff underneath that is always being choked and being hidden from its spot in the sunlight.

Your selection day is coming!!! Just hang in there!

I should probably clarify a couple things.

The first time I noticed white knight guy talking to this girl was a few weeks ago. It did not seem like they were bf/gf or close friends, basically I just noticed him talking to her for a minute or so and then they went their separate ways and I didn't see them talk again. Then about a week ago, I saw the girl there again, and I noticed this other guy(whom I will call short buff guy) talking to her. It was pretty interesting, as white knight was also there, and he seemed to be eying her in a stalkerish sort of way. I saw white knight guy talk to her briefly, then saw her go her own way. Then as she was at a machine, I noticed white knight guy walk over there and talk to her some more. Then I noticed short buff guy go over and talk to them. It looked like short buff guy introduced himself to white knight guy and they shook hands. Then a couple days later I see her talking to short buff guy. I pass by in the middle of their conversation and it sounds they are on pretty friendly terms, and they were talking standing there talking for a while. Don't remember if I saw white knight guy there on that day or what. Then yesterday I saw her and white knight guy, and I noticed at one point they were standing pretty close facing each other while talking and I'm pretty sure I saw touching. That's when I said YIKES I should stop looking at this girl(white knight guy is pretty built btw, as are his friends). Then the incident happened. I avoided looking at the girl too long for obvious reasons, but from what I saw she was turning red, and she yelled something at them, probably telling them to stop fighting. This was in response to the fight of course. I didn't really see her reaction to the guy approaching her, but she didn't have much time to react since white knight guy was right there and came over immediately.

You're right I don't know ALL the details. However, I find it HIGHLY unlikely that short buff guy was approaching this girl to harass her right in front of her boyfriend or even a tough guy friend. It looked to me like he was just trying to make friendly conversation. So I think it's safe for me to assume the this is either A) a territorial jealousy type situation or B) a white knight wannabe hero type situation. But either way, this guy was viciously attacked for talking to a girl.

As for the looks aspect, well, I often see people claiming that girls don't want to be approached by men at the gym and that it is rude. Well, as you can see, this good looking guy approached this girl at the gym and now they seem to be dating.

As far as the age aspect, I said that is possible, but I didn't assume it was the case. It's just a possibility.

You're right, I do identify with the guy who got attacked. We actually seem to be complete opposites: he appears to be really confident and outgoing, while I am shy and pretty much never approach girls. But the reason I identify with him is because this fear of being confronted for approaching girls is always in the back of my mind. And this is why I would never even dream of approaching a girl in front of her male acquaintances. I always have this image in my head of the guy coming over and confronting me. Yes, I do think it is a very real phenomenon that many guys are waiting for an opportunity to "prove themselves" by standing up for a woman and as a result they are quick to interpret a guy's behavior as malicious, simply because they want to play hero.

However, I would not characterize this girl as "unattainable". This girl is actually what prompted me to post previously about how model looking guys usually seem to approach girls who are more "normal looking" as opposed to "beauty queens". This girl is nice looking sure, but she is not what I would describe as model looking. Yet here is this model looking guy fighting over her. The reason this is interesting is because I don't see it happening the other way around. Most girls, and not just the gorgeous ones, seem to almost never be more attracted to the looks of an average guy over a pretty boy type.

Also, the girl did not seem to enjoy the fight at all. She seemed humiliated. And I don't blame her. I was ashamed just being from the same ethnic minority group as these guys.

And just fyi, I do not think that a guy needs to be good looking in order to get a girlfriend or anything like that. When choosing their boyfriend, girls do consider things other than physical attraction. However, when picking who they want to flirt with or who they want attention, I think it is mostly physical attraction. I normally don't think I am that bad looking. I'm in shape, tall and I don't think I am ugly. However, I feel like pretty much no girl or woman wpuld find me as attractive as my 18 year old brother who basically has the pretty boy look like you would see on those ABC Family teen dramas. Yeah it's ironic, guys are bashed whenever they happen to be attracted to a younger woman, yet it is actually women who tend to find young teen guys physically more attractive than more mature men, even men in their 20s.

It's real simple - good looking guys - lots of sex appeal and someone she wants to have sex with - it's the animal side of human nature coming out there (good looking is strong genes, etc.). Average looking guys - the sort of guy she would make friends with and a long term relationship perhaps in the future. You will notice good looking guys getting all the women but rarely getting married, this is the reason, they have sex appeal, not true love appeal.

Then, one day, the fairy-tale boyfriend turns out to be a monster turd, a real liar and a cheat, because "Oh no! Horror of horrors! He really DOES only care about looks and nothing else!"

Eventually they wake up in their late 20's and realize the "stud" guys are all show and no go, that's when the focus shifts to the other guys not previously noticed. That is when suddenly a long time male friend is good enough to marry (stable job, nice house, etc. etc.). And, that is when I just want to say "No thanks, I only see you as a friend. Remember when you said that? I wasn't good enough for you back then, and (in a laughing voice) I'm just not good enough for you now, sorry, you're just so much better than me as a person, and I, I'm afraid I..., I just can't measure up."

They had all the fun of humiliating people, so now it's your turn to turn that around and make it work in your favour. Use the wall THEY built as a means of defending YOU and keeping them from trespassing on your new-found property (a metaphor for the really cool and amazing happy life you'll have once you cut out these toxic people).

Do yourself a favour and look past these women, all you'll get is your heart broken. Go find yourself a quality girl, one who is cool, nice personality, really laid-back and someone who listens. But, you must search HARD for her! They are well hidden bro. They DON'T hang out in the gym! They DON'T hang out in the bar, or on internet dating sites. They are cautious and don't put themselves out like that. Quality is hard to find! And, for good reason, it's to prevent a--holes like your man "white knight" from getting to them because idiots like him are too thick to notice quality even if it kicks them in the a--, and if they were to get hold of it, they would just ruin it.

It's not just with relationships. I had to do the same thing in life. There were people who were just breaking my spirit around every corner, and I had to, for my own sake, cut them out of my life. YOU have to defend yourself, nobody else is going to do it for you, only you can look out for you. Don't allow yourself to keep getting hurt like this, love yourself enough to want to protect yourself against harm and harmful people. If they "build a wall", good, let them, because it will just be protecting you from them in the end. If they "throw rocks", good, because it gives you something to throw back at them!

Yeah, and I know how you feel about the "don't approach girls in the gym" rule. It's the same as the "don't date women at work" rule, and it's "sexual harassment" if you do it rule. Everywhere I walk are posters of "sexual harassment at work" and how it's so wrong to talk anything sexual or make any gestures to female colleagues, then a week later you find out the boss is nailing his secretary and she's totally OK with it. It's all about power, simple as that, and good looking guys just have power automatically because of their looks.

There are no excuses or explanations for it, this world is pathetic and two-faced.

You will always see them throwing these rules at your face if you are an unattractive guy, a poor guy or you have some lack somewhere which they just don't like. The rules are just a scapegoat and really pathetic way of telling you they don't like you. You are so right, if an attractive guy does it, then suddenly it's OK, then suddenly it's no longer sexual harassment.

It is these kind of double standards that I hate, and why I don't have much respect for most people in the world today. Because they proclaim one thing and do another thing, and it's all a bunch of biased crap. I just can't wait for the day all this BS, and the people who swear by it, is finally annihilated for good, so the world can once again be a peaceful, harmonious place like it was at creation.

It's like these people who all look out for their own needs first and then tell you that they did what they did because they care about YOU and they are doing what is best for you. RUBBISH!!! I was told that every single time just as I found out I got stabbed in the back.

I'm really sorry that you have been so hurt by women that you have become this bitter and speak so poorly about females. Have you gotten some therapy to work through these negative feelings? If not you should , life is too short to be so angry at such a young age.

I wish you well

Wow....

Shadix, I'm sorry... but I can't even try to reply to your posts (where you actually made some of your most reasonable comments)... because I am just blown away by the sexism that Stbguy is spouting. Just wow. Sexist and hateful. Shadix... please don't go down the road that he's showing you.

Stbguy please seek therapy. If I was that bitter and angry about men I would be exploring it in therapy big time. Please do so



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Wow guys, none of you ever heard of "if the shoe fits..."

Did I once say that all the women did this? I'm talking about the sort of women that this poor man has encountered on Yahoo answers or whatever the rubbish is called where these "broads" spew their man-hating venom. "Beta" and "omega" males? As I said, like animals...

Who said I was bitter and angry at all the women? But, for some of them...bitterness and anger is an understatement.

But, while we're on the subject and everyone has now insisted on trying to ruffle my feathers, you've got to admit, many women are pretty damn shallow, much more so than men would ever be.

And, I know I'm spot on with the sex thing. Sex is about lust, not love. Lust is shallow, hence looks are dominant here, bottom line. Now love on the other hand, that's different. You can love anyone or anything even, no matter who or what they are, because it's a personal thing. You can even love an animal or a hobby. You cannot lust after everyone though, it's a physical, almost animalistic thing, so physical characteristics are going to matter, both in men and women, it's deep rooted and sub-conscious, probably can't even be controlled that well. The whole "alpha/beta/omega" male thing proves my point, it's a measure that you women came up with yourself! Are you now denying you ever did?

Shadix, you don't have to follow anything you don't want to, you can think I'm crazy just like all the rest of the people on here, it doesn't matter. You also have the choice of absorbing all the negativity against you like a sponge, accept people's projections of their own issues onto you, or you can sit down and truly determine whether it all applies to you or not. All I want you to see is what kind of women are referring to sex and which are referring to love. Read those quotes you posted very carefully again. Does that sound like someone who loves unconditionally and seeks happiness and fulfilment in a true, loving relationship? Or, does it sound like someone who is confusing her desire for sex with what she believes is love?

Here's the deal, and NOBODY will ever agree with me (but I don't care) - LOVE between a man and a woman can exist without any SEX! A loving marriage can exist even without sex! What about couples who physically can't have sex? You don't see them divorcing and hating on each other.

To be happy, you need to seek love, forget about sex for now, that will come in time. You strike out with these certain kinds of women because you, deep down, are a love-seeker who has been conditioned by society to put sexual desire first and foremost, and that is not in-line with your true self's philosophy with what it wants for your life.

I know this because I had fallen in the same way. We see a girl, the first thing we notice is how "beautiful" she is and her body. That is years and years of conditioning coming in right there. We do it because our dads and big brothers and friends used to whistle at girls in the street, etc. we see it all the time on TV, the seduction game, the sexual aspect of being a man with a woman, constant bragging by guys about how they scored this girl and how they scored that girl. It is only with time how you see just how very wrong and stupid this conditioning truly is, and the saddest thing - it is accepted like fact in the outside world as to the method of how men and women should interact! As a matter of fact, it is so bad already, that women even started believing that is how they should be treated by men!

As I said before, these people you've encountered in your life are most demonstrative and their voices get heard the loudest and their actions get seen the most - it still don't make them right or good. Remember the "weeds" I was speaking of.

Here's basically what they're saying in those quotes - only socially acceptable people, who are not socially awkward and who have no mental issues, are worthy of being loved and accepted. Does that sound right to you? People with issues cannot be loved, is that what everyone is wanting you to accept? People with social problems don't deserve anyone special or anything wonderful in their lives? Can you truly sit there and say you can agree with that? I can't, and if that makes me crazy then so be it, then I am. But, truly, that is news to me, I never knew people with problems deserve to be hated and pushed aside, just shows you, you learn something new everyday.

I bow to everyone's superior knowledge on this one, because clearly I am too crazy to know what the f--k I'm talking about. How stupid and naive of me to believe that people with issues also deserve love and happiness. We should all be rounded up, thrown on a heap of firewood and be exterminated at once! We pose an immense danger to these poor people when we seek their love and acceptance.

First thing tomorrow morning, I'm going down to my local mental asylum and demand they chain and shackle me IMMEDIATELY! I mean, I'm clearly capable of killing people, just with my words and wanting friendship alone!

Saying that many women are much more shallow than men is very much a bitter statement and generalization . I'd never say that men are worse than women in any aspects. It is not true. I think men and women aren't that different,.

Something causes you to have such stereotypes. Whatever it is I hope it gets addressed in therapy. You sound angry and it can't be good for your health


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For the record, I don't think women are more shallow than men. I just think that the standard of beauty that women hold men to is way more narrow and difficult to match up to than the one men hold women to.

Most men are attracted to a wide variety of different types of women. Sure they are attracted to some who look like Victoria's Secret models, but they are attracted to just as many who look normal. Actually, they often find the normal looking ones more attractive. As a normal looking woman, you can feel like you are just as attracted as conventionally hot model types and you can expect gorgeous men to choose you over them. But my observations have shown that the vast majority of women prefer very specific types of looks on guys. And actually, it is beyond just preferring conventionally hot types over average types. From what I have seen, women will overwhelmingly prefer certain types of conventionally hot guys over others!

Stbguy stated quite clearly that he is referring to 10% of the population, "the weeds" as he put it, and that he thinks 90% of women are not like that. How is that sexist? Is it sexist to suggest anything negative about ANY women?

But he is totally right about the double standards. It is quite obvious that society does impose special rules on men that women are not subjected to. For example, would a woman EVER be called rude and disrespectful for striking up a conversation with a man she finds attractive? No. But as you can see men not only get labeled as rude but they are even physically attacked for it! This is the real sexism. This is what you should be up in arms about, not stbguy's comments.

Nobody is going to force me to admit to something I am not doing. I am not generalizing at all, I thought I made it pretty clear that I'm referring to 10% of the women who are doing it, and yes they (these 10%) are more shallow than men, and they are also the type who are hanging out on the internet accusing certain men of being like this and being like that, on places like Yahoo answers for example, and it is some poor guy's misfortune to encounter them and be burned by their hateful diatribe.

YOU are saying I am angry, bitter, hateful and all the rest, and you clearly know more about what's going on in my own head than me myself. I PROMISE you I am not any of those things you say, and I resist your highly subjective and skewed analysis of me. Yes, sure, I harbour some deep-seated feelings towards certain people, but that's simply because they have proven me right for 20 years through their words and actions. Why on earth would I feel anything towards someone if they did nothing to me?

I speak of these particular women because I have had numerous encounters with them myself over the years, and I had to sit back and listen to them falsely accuse me of things I wouldn't even dream of doing and sit back and listen to them tear my character apart.

Do you have any idea how it feels to be a reserved man, all shy and awkward? To muster all the courage you have and then to take a step you've never taken before, go all out and actually approach people, especially women, only to get blown off and dismissed as naught? Still, you don't give up, you think "I'll try again, not all of them can be like that" so you do it all again, you pick yourself up and you approach someone new, and presto, it actually goes well. You think "yeah, I was right, it was only that one person's opinion, see, this person doesn't dislike me", so you go one step further, trying to build the friendship, and then it happens, they begin simply ignoring you. Days later you see that person exchanging more than pleasantries with someone else and you realize you've been pushed aside. Still you don't give up, but you realize you need help. So, you go onto the place where everyone goes for information, the internet. You go and try to find information about what it is that's holding you back, and you stumble upon something "Why women don't like you" and by looking at the title you think wow this guy knows exactly what my problem is! So, you start reading, and it's a rude awakening. In there, you find out you're not even in the same league as anyone else, not even close. You've got problems you didn't even know you had. You are crushed at that point, you think, let me just look at some of the comments, maybe someone disagrees, you search for that positive silver lining. No, the comments are even worse than the article, all the women commenting couldn't agree more, they totally back up the writer of the article. You go away devastated, crushed and broken. You begin to think wow if so many women agreed, it is an indication of what they truly must be feeling inside. I mean, the comments are anonymous, so the perfect platform for honesty. You realize there must be something wrong with you. Years you spend in therapy, you join sites like PsychCentral, looking for answers. You search and search and search for an awakening from this nightmare, you can't believe just how distanced you are from the rest of the world and their viewpoint. All the time while doing this, you still don't give up, you still try and approach people, approach women in particular, and sometimes it goes well but all the friendships basically end the same way - they ditch you for someone else. You try to be strong, hold your head up, and say this won't get you down, still you don't quit, you don't want to believe it's impossible, so you still try. You can't even believe your own persistence, you know most other guys would've given up long ago already. So, you think, I'll try online dating, surely those women are not judgmental and dismissive as the normal women out there. They know how it is to be lonely you think, and will be much more accommodating. Huge mistake. These women are even worse. You send them messages (something along the lines of Hi, I like your profile) and they don't even respond, some of them block you or delete their profile. You think, wow, did I offend that person enough with my saying hello that they felt they had to delete their profile? You realize this isn't going to work, so you give up on online dating. Back to square one, this time with all your courage broken. You see women walking everywhere and it becomes an obsession, you begin to think what is it? What is this thing I seem to lack? You see couples everywhere, you see relationships developing in your workplace, at your local gym, and you think "but, I thought it was wrong to approach women at work or at the gym, because that's what they were saying all along". You become totally confused and realize it must be because of guys like you why they say that, because it clearly doesn't apply to other guys. You begin to feel that there is definitely something they've got against you as a person. So, you go back to the internet, back here to PC, you seek help, you read of another guy with the same issue, and then people turn around and say you're crazy, you've got some issues. And you know what, they're right! Yes, you've got issues...but, what if you don't? You've been sitting here for years trying to find the answers and you never did. What if there was never anything to find?

You see, that's when I began to question it all. All these things went on in my mind because I assumed they should apply to me, I mean after all, I am that guy the women were speaking of in the comments, right? Right? Maybe not.

You begin to probe for the real reason, and you find out it's because these people, especially the women, are even sicker in the head than you! They've got so many issues, they need to load it off onto your shoulders just to breathe. They project all their fears onto you and by doing so don't have to face up to their own stuff, because you've taken that load for them.

And that's what I am trying to get across to Shadix. You DON'T have to be what others have said you are, especially women. Why do I say women? Because from experience women never question anything and will always believe the first thing they hear or see, and I'm yet to be proven wrong. They always assume the worst, and then when proven wrong, they pretend like they didn't know! If you don't know then don't assume!

So, I'm sorry, but I am NOT going to accept whatever issues it is that people are trying to project onto me here. I am no sexist, I don't hate women, I am not angry and not bitter, and I am not going to accept that analysis simply because it fits whatever psycho-babble theory came up with so-called "symptoms".

And before anyone gets on their high horse again, consider this - aren't you doing exactly what I was doing? JUST LIKE ME you saw things and immediately believed the worst. You see my words and immediately believe I must be a woman-hater, just like I was rejected and immediately believed it must be something wrong with me.

As I said, don't assume.

You know, and just in case someone is sitting here and still thinks I'm a hateful idiot, I'll point out something rather ironic - so many sit here and say "don't assume things about people, how they think, you don't know what's going on in their lives" and all the rest of it, pages of it in this thread alone. And then, what's the first thing everyone does? They assume they know what's going on in my head!!!

Don't know what's in your head, only know what you post.

"Many women are pretty damn shallow much more than men would ever be" doesn't translate into 10%. Unless by many you mean 10%?

In any case no one assumed anything in your posts, people just read what you said. And what you are saying is very much stereotyping and angry attitude about women. It can't possibly be good for you so people advice you to seek help

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If by help they mean accusation and character assassination then I'll pass thanks.

And yeah, by 10% I mean many, especially if that 10% is the 10% with all the vocal power in the world.

No my friend, that's what you see and you alone see in my words, don't rope others into it now.

Nope. Not just me. At least two more people saw exactly same thing and pointed it out. But regardless I know you are struggling and I wish you the best in your process of healing should you decide to do so. By help I meant therapy but it's of course up to you if you want to be better or not. Good luck with whatever you decide

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Hey Shadix, going back to what you wrote about in the gym.

It sounds like you were intensely observing this interaction but I would urge you not to jump to conclusions, there could have been any number of factors going on in this scenario. It's very easy to get the wrong end of the stick.

I really don't think it's wise to compare yourself to any of these other guys who you don't really know.

Going back further to your original point about 'socially awkward guys', well yes I'd say it is harder for people (male or female) who are socially awkward to establish friendships and so relationships too. One of the things we tend to do (& I include myself here because I've had issues with shyness/awkwardness) is observe social situations and become hyper-vigilant - we risk assess to a ridiculous degree and it can paralyse us.

It helps me to take a step back sometimes and look at myself from the outside, realising my perception of the situation might not always be accurate.

I'm sorry, but at this point I just cannot believe your sentiments, that's just too easy to say now and I know you don't feel that way about me, never will either. And, better is a relative term anyway, depending on the measuring stick you use.

Stbguy: Do you see my words? I said that the the words you are saying are sexist. Didn't say that you specifically are sexist. But the things you are saying in this thread are. Also, I never said that you were just saying sexist things against women - in fact, I think a lot of what you've said has been sexist in regards to both genders.

You don't have to believe but I think your negative attitudes about people comes from some type of pain that needs to be addressed. By better I mean being more positive and seeing people and life in a brighter light. It can't be a happy life to have such negative attitude. Life is too short

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