intimacy and getting to know each other

hmm...

i don't have much experience with relationships. mostly just 'arrangements' or 'encounters' or similar. and... not that many of those either... this relationship thing is hard for me. not really sure what it is supposed to be about... how it is supposed to go...

i think mr man is quite shy about his body. i'm quite shy about my body too, so i understand that. but i've never met anybody who was more shy than me! and i don't really understand why he is shy... i mean... he does martial arts and running and yoga and so he is in pretty good shape (better shape than me and i'm really self conscious about my flabby thighs and tummy!).

but he does seem to be really shy... he told me a couple things about him before we fooled around... kinda to assess my reaction, i think. one was... something about how he is quite hairy... (looked embarrassed) but how he doesn't have a hairy back. i was like... lol... its okay. whatever. i really don't mind... (though the happy coincidence is that i'm really not sure how i find hairy backs but i actually really like him just the way he is. i mean... i'm a kinda hairy person myself - though i remove it all - and it feels nice to me that he is hairier than me... makes me feel more feminine).

and so a couple things like that. so i guess part of it is about his being shy / self conscious about his body. another part of it... is that i did freak out a little one day. talked to him about it and it went okay. but he knows about some of my mental health history... and he was a bit thoughtful about that... and he said that having a realtionship with me would be complicated... and i said (as part of my freak out) that i needed things to go slower. and he was terrific about that. really very respectful. and then... precisely because of how respectful he was i wanted things to go faster. and he seemed... reluctant. kinda. okay with pleasing me. but not really okay with me touching him. when i sort of asked him how come he would say 'too intimate'.

and i feel... a bit puzzled. i've never been in a situation where another person wanted me to slow down. usually they are trying to get me to move faster. i hope i'm not being victim to gender roles, here... but maybe i am.

i guess... i worry a little that he wanted to have a little fun and then realised that i couldn't really do that (because of my history it could hurt me very much). but... i don't think that is it. he is really very sweet... i keep checking that he does want to talk on the phone - and he does. and i keep checking that he does want me to visit him - and he does. and he emails me sweet little notes. and he has sent me stuff. so... i think he really is very genuine with liking me... i just find it hard to know what 'too intimate' means... doesn't he find me sexually attractive? (he seemed to - he just didn't want me following up on that). is he scared of intimacy? he doesn't seem to have trouble with emotional intimacy...

maybe... it is just about being sure. i guess we have had more emotional intimacy recently with our phone conversations. he is getting to see that i don't freak out ALL the time. he is getting to see that i'm not demanding that he talk to me or give me attention. he is getting to see that i can be soothing and validating to him and that he CAN talk to me about stuff. including... his past relationships... where he is at with his thoughts about work... we can talk about money (or lack thereof) etc etc. getting to see how similar / complimentary we are, i guess.

he is a bit older than me... here we go with the stereotypes again... but i think that sex does become more about emotional intimacy for guys a bit later. sex isn't a fast and reliable progression anymore... becomes more complex. i guess... sex is a fairly fast and reliable progression for me. maybe... that freaked him a little. performance pressure or something. i don't know. maybe... i just have trouble hearing 'no'. and maybe... i just have trouble understanding 'too intimate'. maybe... i worry about things / read more into things than i should.

maybe... he just needs things to go a little slower. i think... he HAS been hurt. i haven't talked to him a great deal about his breakup (couple years ago now) but seemed like they were really serious and had been together for 3 or 4 years or something like that. he referred to it as... a 'divorce' yesterday. but... i don't think they were ever married. then he went into a bit of a rant about divorce and pre-nuptual agreements and how his therapist was saying they are fairly useless 'cause they are contestable anyway... and he was saying how if you are going to get divorced then you should really do that within 10 years...

and so thats a bit weird and all...

anyhoo... aren't relationships funny????

i guess... we will figure this out (or figure it out a little more anyway) over the next few months.

it is weird but i really do have to keep reminding myself: i only knew this guy for a couple weeks before we got involved. and then we were only together for two weeks. sure i moved in for those two weeks and since we work together we saw each other a lot... but it is only two weeks. and we have been talking on the phone a lot for the past month or so but... it isn't that weird to be saying 'too intimate' when you have only known someone for 3 weeks. is it? jeepers... it doesn't sound weird at all when put like that.

though... it does get me worried about me... that it felt alright for me... and feeling... a little sad that he did stuff with me that he wouldn't feel comfortable if i did that stuff with him... still... he didn't seem to mind. and... he doesn't seem to be holding it against me... and... either that or feeling really very rejected. i wish i wasn't so %#@&#! up :-(

Alex he sounds like a really wonderful man!!! He's probably simply respecting you.....a lot of men who are a bit older know what what a lot of us women have gone through with men in our younger days. At least thats been my experience. I always felt like I had to give more sexually then I wanted to, to please the man.

I'm with a guy who's 11 years older than me now and he doesn't need at all that stuff. I find that I want it more than him! I think you're right about the older guys. But when we're used to being more sexual and quicker, it send our self-esteem on a roller coaster ride.

It sounds like a wonderful new relationship and it sounds to me like he wants to make sure he does everything right with you. I don't think its you at all.....seriously he sounds like a wonderful man!!

I have yet to meet a woman who didn't go through all these self-esteem issues in a new relationship. I'm almost 6 mnths into mine, and I still feel it.

Take it a day at at a time, and keep an open and honest line of communication. Tell him your fears and he'll tell you his. You're in that wonderful emotional intimacy stage as you called it, and that doesn't happen with every relationship. Its a beautiful thing. I'm very happy for you Alex, this guy sounds like a dream!!!!!!!!

hey. thank you. yeah, i really really like him. just worry about being too needy / demanding. worry about him feeling smothered. worried that he might find my 'forwardness' unappealling. if it was a turn-off or something. but... it didn't seem to turn him off, and he didn't seem to mind... so... best not read too much into that, i think.

trying not to be too needy... and trying (now that i think i understand it a little) to make sure he gets some emotional space. try not to ask intrusive questions, and try and be sensitive if i think he is uncomfortable talking about something. there will be plenty of time to talk over the years, i'm sure. i guess... he suggested i visit for 2 weeks. and i was thinking that i'd like to go for longer... 3 weeks maybe. i'll be sensitive to his preference, though. say what i'd like and if he doesn't seem keen then i can back off. try and give things time.

try and enjoy the journey and not long to be someplace somewhere in the future. slow down... i'm so not good at impulse control :-(

and getting to know him, yeah. i guess i am learning a lot about him over the phone. and if i'm learning a lot about him i guess that means he is learning a lot about me. i think we are moving from the showing our best to sharing some of our weaknesses stage. so there is a kind of vulnerability there. it is measured though, kinda. i guess neither of us want to put the other off.

i just wish we could do stuff together as well as talking to each other. i mean... it would be nice to just hang out together. go to a pub and listen to a band or go for a walk and just enjoy it without talking. have a meal together. those kinds of things. playfighting. watching a movie.

but... patience. need to learn some patience.

Patience is hard in matters of the heart. I've learned that with my bf. I'm still learning about him.....he's the most complicated guys I've ever been with. I think I used to pick simpler ones on purpose, but he is anything but.

A lasting relationship is a marathon, not a sprint. You two sound like you're on the road to a good relationship. Share your insecurities with him and keep it on your side of the street, so he knows where you're coming from but doesn't take it to be smothering. Maybe when you talk to him about the visit you could say "if you want, I could stay longer" and see how he reacts. It sounds like he's pacing himself, and thats a good quality.

um... what does 'complicated' mean? i wasn't so sure about that... does it kinda mean... 'surprising'. i mean... in the sense that they top down generate problems or whatever sometimes? 'cause if that is what complicated means... then i guess i'm pretty complicated lol. hard to figure out... i guess that would be one consequence. is that what it is about?

> A lasting relationship is a marathon, not a sprint.

yes. yeah, that is so true. one thing i've been worrying about is whether i might start having the opposite sexual issue. 'cause i've been reading stuff on hypersexuality and hyposexuality and how they tend to recurr in the same person. and how hypersexuality tends to prevail in the absense of emotional intimacy and how hyposexuality tends to prevail in the presence of emotional intimacy. and so i've been worrying that i might run hot / cold. and... i so don't want that to happen. like how i'm trying not to idealise because i don't want to devalue. and so i worried maybe i was being hypersexual (or he thought i was) and whether i might transform into the opposite as things progress :-( but... keep an eye on stuff but not let it dictate the course of things huh. don't want to create problems...

> Share your insecurities with him and keep it on your side of the street, so he knows where you're coming from but doesn't take it to be smothering.

yeah. yeah. thats what i need to do. and balance sharing my insecurites with sharing other (more uplifting) stuff. and with listening to him talk about his stuff...

> Maybe when you talk to him about the visit you could say "if you want, I could stay longer" and see how he reacts. It sounds like he's pacing himself, and thats a good quality.

yeah. i will say... 'i could come for three weeks if you like' and see whether he would like. there are little things. sometimes he will say 'i bet you are getting tired i should let you go' and i am like 'i'm not getting tired but if you need to be starting your day then i understand'. i think he is getting better at saying what he needs (because it is okay for me) rather than trying to frame what he needs as something that i need (when i don't need it). because... i think i said something before about how i could visit for three weeks and he was like 'but you don't have enough leave for that and two weeks will be plenty'. i wasn't sure if it was that he really would like me to visit for longer but was trying to be sensitive to me not being able to... or whether he really did only want me to visit for two weeks. still... i think we are getting better with sorting this kinda stuff out... if we really do get better at it with respect to when one or the other or both of us have to get off the phone... then i'll ask him again about how long he wants me to visit for and i'll tell him how long i want to visit for.

i guess.. he is complicated too lol. just freaked me out that he was talking to me about this divorce stuff. and he said 'my therapist said...' and so i'm thinking that this must really be on his mind for him to have talked to his threapist about it. started because he was talking about his cat and said something about when his cats brother was here.. and i was like 'what happened to her brother' and he was like 'divorce can be hard on the children, xxx took him'... and then started ranting about divorce. something about this weird relationship the neighbours have too... maybe it was more about that. sounds like the guy is financially going to the cleaners though mr man did say something about how the stats say that women tend to do worse off and men tend to do better off financially after divorce dispite how much guys grumble about going to the cleaners...

where the hell did all that come from?????

dunno. maybe... i need to lighten up.

Complicated in reference to my boyfriend for me is just that he's well, complicated lol! He's got an extremely stressful job and he's got ADD to the max. He's an ego maniac with a self-esteem problem. I could go on...he's just complicated lol. But I like that about him. Its challenging. I can't control him like I did in my past relationships.

{and how hypersexuality tends to prevail in the absense of emotional intimacy and how hyposexuality tends to prevail in the presence of emotional intimacy}

That so explains my boyfriend! Wow....that actually really helps me. I think he's gone hypo because of our emotional intimacy, not to say that I'm hypersexual, its just that I enjoy it with him and never did before.

{'i bet you are getting tired i should let you go'} LOL!!! I do the same thing. I think, OMG he wants to get off the phone so he's trying to make it seem like I want to get off the phone. I read into things soooo bad. Just the other night I was complaining to my friend about him, how I didn't trust what he was doing or something, and he called me and explained why I shouldn't come over, it was because he was in a terrible mood and didn't want to subject me to it. But I read into everything and make it about me, something I'm really working on.

Maybe he's finally working through all the divorce issues because he likes you and wants to clear up the past? When I got with my boyfriend, before I'd have sex with him, there were some painful things from my past that I was finally willing to work on, so that I could really be "available" to my boyfriend. With past relationships, I didn't realize how my past was such an issue, but with my bf I really wanted to make sure I was walking into the relationship free from the crud in my past.

I think these insecurities will pass.....it really sounds to me like you guys like each other a lot so you're both worried about what the other one thinks. People pointed out to me that my boyfriend had insecurities too, and they've come as we've progressed.

I like that you call him Mr. Man. I need to come up with a nickname for my boyfriend tee hee!

hey. i wonder if his stressful job means that he finds it hard to relax. i think that you need to relax to have a sexual response... can you help him unwind a little? with massage or something like that? that might help a little...

> {and how hypersexuality tends to prevail in the absense of emotional intimacy and how hyposexuality tends to prevail in the presence of emotional intimacy}

i think... that is meant to come about for people with relational trauma. narcissism... well, one notion is that that arises as a response to relational trauma, so i guess they might be related. i have a bit of a narcissistic disorder myself (due to neglect and stuff) and i think mr. man might as well... he does seem to worry a great deal about moving up the ladder at work and the associated relevant peer assessments... and about how he is underappreciated sometimes...

i guess... i want to work on us having good communication. so i can say (or so he can say) 'i really want / need this now'. to be able to state our needs / preferences honestly like that instead of casting them as being what the OTHER needs / prefers. how come? because too much of that and you find you tend to do something that is actually AGAINST the other persons needs / preferences and then you start to feel resentful that the other person doesn't appreciate your catering to them (which of course you aren't actually doing). i do think... that there can be boundary problems with that kind of thing... i guess i want to try and have a healthy relationship. of course this strategy takes some ego strength... when he says 'i should let you go because you must be getting sleepy' i try and say 'i'm not getting sleepy but if you would like to start your day now, then i understand'. and when he is like 'yeah, i think i should be getting on with my work now' i try and be like 'yeah, thats cool. i'll send you an email' and not be hurt about it or anything. i'm hoping... that we will both be able to be honest like that... it is hard... but i really want this to work out. i think... he is getting better at saying what he needs... and... i hope i'm getting better at it too... not sure... assertiveness isn't really my strong point :-( i guess i just notice that he seems to feel a little... unappreciated by others sometimes because he thinks he has gone out of his way for them and they are unappreciative. i guess... i don't want that to be a pattern in our relationship and i'd like to help him with that (it is a factor in dysthymia, apparently). i hope... that he will similarly help me with stuff that i find hard... i think... he will... but time will tell, i guess...

alex,

I've not read anything but the first post and wanted to respond to that first...

I SO understand your confusion in his actions with your advance. In fact, your man sounds alot like my man and we just had our 20th anniversary this past January.

Anyhow, we had a sexual relationship pretty early...very early. He was all about pleasing me. He knew I had abuse, but not to the extent that it was, nor who, etc. He knew some, more than I would've liked him to, in fact. I, like you, had freaked a bit once.

So, the sexual part seemed good...great, right? He, like your man, showed high interest in pleasing me. I was timid, self-conscious, hesitant, etc. I guess I showed signs of my history one could surmise. It was still good, with his having a high interest in me.

I finally felt comfortable enough to advance myself not long into the relationship and he put me off as well. He wasn't even close to ugly or anything. He just turned it back around to me...quickly...in a way that let me know he didn't want to go "there".

I couldn't get that out of my mind. Over a year later, when we were married and had a child already, I asked him about it.

He explained that he wanted me to KNOW, truly KNOW, that he wanted me for me and not what I could do, not what I thought a man expected, etc. He said that I couldn't separate love from sex...that they appeared to be the same for me and he wanted to show me love...his love for me...no strings or expectations. He wanted my relationship with him to be different and made it so. If I'd had my way, I would've brought sameness from the past ugly to the present beautiful without knowing it.

He's never had therapy and is a pretty ordinary man by appearance, but he was and is so much more and that's only one example of the insight and deep emotional thinking and connections a man can have and want to have.

I wanted to share...

KD

Hey. That sounds lovely Kimmy. I guess I had wondered if there might be something like this about it... Because I did express some concern that he didn't like the various things I wanted to do... And he said it wasn't about that... And relaxed some - but not completely. I guess... Only time will tell. I think it is okay... I'm probably just overthinking this way too much. I guess I'll see when I visit. I'll be prepared to back off a bit and take things slower... And we will see where he is at, I guess. I think that part of it was about his not wanting to hurt me and realising that I could be vulnerable to that. Also... His not knowing whether things were likely to work out over the long haul or not. I mean... He said he wasn't sure about whether a long distance relationship could work. And he said it didn't seem like we would be able to be together anytime in the next five years. And... We didn't know each other very well, I guess. I mean, for all he knew, I might be freaking out about something or other every week. But... Over time... He has started to talk more about how we might be able to arrange to see each other and stuff like that. He is applying for work elsewhere, too, which seems to be partly related to me but partly related to other stuff going on in his life. He applyed for something that means we might be able to be together for a year - though he did say that it is unlikely that he will get it... But, yeah. Thanks for your post. It helps.

Sounds to me like he's being very careful and taking steps to make this different as well.

That can be VERY cool.

KD

Alex.......this is freakin perfect:

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
i think... that is meant to come about for people with relational trauma. narcissism... well, one notion is that that arises as a response to relational trauma, so i guess they might be related. i have a bit of a narcissistic disorder myself (due to neglect and stuff) and i think mr. man might as well... he does seem to worry a great deal about moving up the ladder at work and the associated relevant peer assessments... and about how he is underappreciated sometimes...

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

That is my boyfriend to a T!!!! I mean you seriously just hit the nail on the head. Its been a huge help reading your replies and now Kimmy's. It sounds to me like our men are very similar. I wonder if that means we ladies are similar too, since we were all attracted to these men.

One thing I have to say is, I think we're blessed that we have men in our lives who are putting our best interests ahead of their "members". Thats a first for me, and I feel so blessed. I feel very blessed to be able to share about stuff here too.

It sounds like you're trying really hard with the whole "I'll let you go so you can sleep" thing. Anything worthwhile takes work right?

I'm still trying to think of a nickname for bf......

> It sounds to me like our men are very similar. I wonder if that means we ladies are similar too, since we were all attracted to these men.

lol. yeah, i guess it isn't surprising. i figure that we are alike in important ways and i figure that the people who we would be attracted to (and the people who would be attracted to us) would similarly be alike in important ways.

i guess i think... that pathology exists along a continuum with normal functioning. everybody, no matter how healthy they are, fits in some continuum or other that can be pathological when it is extreme.

i really like the 'self psychology' take on things. kohut talks about 'narcissistic disorders' but what he means by narcissism is one hell of a lot broader than what it tends to mean these days. a hell of a lot less judgemental too. he talks about how infants have a need for external regulation initially because they don't have the resources to internally regulate themselves. they need someone else to help them regulate temperature and nutrition and the like. they also have emotional needs, and Kohut carves these up into needs for idealising (soothing, comfort, safety, happiness in the presence of a benevolent and powerful / protective other) and mirroring ('gleam in the mothers eye' pride in us and our achievements) and twinning (being like other people - sharing hobbies and interests and concerns - such that we feel like we are part of the human race).

He thinks that narcissistic disorders arise in response to a sustained failure of the environment to meet these self-object needs. because the environment doesn't externally regulate these needs (by providing these things to us) we don't get the chance to internalise the functions such that we are better able to meet them ourselves and position ourselves such that other people are able to help us meet these functions either.

borderline personality pathology is supposed to be a failure of idealising functions (for the most part)

narcissistic personality pathology is supposed to be a failure of mirroring functions (for the most part)

some people are extreme with this (such that they meet criteria for personality disorder) but the majority of people have some kinds of failure across one or more of these... and i think most people with narcissistic disorders have both kinds of self-object failure :-(

one idea that comes up a lot is that borderline personality disorder and narcissistic disorder are complimentary. people with those vulnerabilities tend to be attracted to each other. this is likely to turn bad / not last, however... but... since pathology exists along a continuum so long as everyone works on their %#@&#! i don't see any reason why things can't work out... i mean... i figure that even 'healthy relationships' are based on some kind of need fulfillment from the partner and there is something about how they are sensitive to those needs that is attractive about the person...

i do worry some, though, yeah.

i think... that maybe as guys get a bit older... that they settle down such that there members aren't quite the focus as they once were. i think... that is nice for us, huh :-)

i think... we are lucky that they seem to look out for our interests and aren't completely absorbed with their own.

i worry a little... i mean... i don't really know what is up with mr man... but... i guess all i can do... is take some comfort from what people have said (which i have done) and... just wait and see how things pan out.

i'm just scared because i really honestly never thought that i'd have a relationship with someone. i always figured that i simply wasn't healthy enough to have a healthy relationship and that if i tried that it would inevitably end up being hostile / bitter / unpleasant. i guess i have kinda pushed people away from me. that is probably why i haven't really wanted to have a relationship with anybody... but then part of me wondered whether i just hadn't met the right person yet. someone who made me feel like i wanted to try. well, i've met him now.

and... even if things don't work out between us i can hold onto that. i AM capable of love. and... if those feelings go away (if i run cold) then i figure it is a matter of how much else we have going for us (similar interests, ability to share non-verbal things like walks and stuff) to keep me working on my %#@&#!. i don't really believe in soul mates i'm more a fan of 'circumstances'. i just didn't think i would ever find circumstances conducive for me really wanting to be with someone.

how old am i???

lol.

I'm so glad that you're looking at the fact that you are capapble of love, so that even if this doesn't work out, you'll be open to love in the future.

Don't worry too much about what the experts say about what types of personalities etc don't belong together....I used to look for men compatible with my horoscope sign....but I let go of thinking those were always accurate.

If we expect the worst, thats typically what we get. I know I am really great at self sabotaging. When I first got with my guy, I inevitably looking for the other shoe to drop. It wa too good. I didn't deserve good. Things never went this well for me. I'm uncomfortable being happy because for so long I treated myself like crap. Therefore I must look for something that will end this before he breaks my heart. Self sabotage.....sucks.

Luckily I talked with my girlfriend about it all and she helped me realize in time what I was doing. She did the same thing when she got with her boyfriend over 2 years ago. Luckily she didn't succeed and they're still together.

I think its that underlying old behavior of self sabotage for me that makes all my horrid self esteem issues flair up, that makes me read into things....I start thinking, ok he's pulling away. He's gonna leave me. How can I leave him first. I KNOW this isn't true. I chatted with someone on here right away when that thought crossed my mind and she talked me down.

For me, its almost easier to accept the terrible things then it is to accept the good things. I've only been good to myself for a little over 2 years now, before that, ***** I abused MYSELF, settling with men I knew I didn't love because I thought I'd never get any better, I even married one.

Now, learning to realize that hell I AM a good person, I DO deserve this love.....sometimes thats harder to accept then the bad things. Its almost like bad things are the norm. I"m moving past that.....but I think at least for me, that my past really breaks through in this relationship. With all the good come the fears. Fears that I'll loose what I have or fear that I won't get what I want. FEAR - False Expectation Appearing Real. Thats what I try and remind myself. I do hate the headgames I play with myself!!!!!

You said you knew your man had been hurt in a/relationship(s); mine had been married before (for nearly 20 years) and he had quite a few little "quirks" of his own I helped him with. He was horribly embarrassed when he told me he enjoyed lingerie (on women :-) because his ex-wife had thought that was disgusting or something? I think everyone gets their own little "problems" as they go along and maybe he has some of his own and you're actually braver than he about sharing! You could be just as helpful to him with your understanding as it sounds like he could be for you with his.

Oh, Perna, that's a good point! Just as we have pasts, our men usually do as well!

KD

(((((((((((( Alex )))))))))))

hey. the stuff about personalities wasn't about what personalities don't belong together, it was a theory on what personalities tend to be attracted to each other. the notion is... that while horoscopes don't have any predictive power better than chance past relationship patterns predict future relationship patterns fairly well.

so... it wasn't that people with those kinds of pathology (or with tendancies towards those kinds of pathology) shouldn't be together because of how that can turn out... i take it to be more of a story about what can happen when pathology is extreme and hence... it is something to watch out for and something to take steps towards preventing.

my main thing... is that i want someone to look after me. soothing, safe, secure, reliable. because i have intense idealising needs. mr man is fairly happyish with me idealising him but i need to be careful to keep that in check. how come? because if i feel too dependent on someone then there is the potential for me to rage / devalue if i feel like they fail to meet my needs. there is also the possibility of my feeling smothered and terrified of feeling so dependent. i need to be careful that i keep working towards being independent and being self sufficient (e.g., thats what went wrong with his last relationship. he looked after her and she didn't have anything of her own to be getting on with and she ended up feeling trapped and dissatisfied so she left). it is important to both of us that that isn't repeated...

but he likes for me to idealise him a little. because it helps him feel strong and powerful and needed. a little of it is fine - just be careful to moderate it. because too much strength and power and feeling a bit smothered and having fears of merger can result in angry lashing out attacking sadistic kinds of ways of coping. similarly... mirroring seems to be most important to him.

i wonder if when you idealise someone a little that results in your mirroring them.

if that is why the pathologies / tendencies are meant to be complimentary.

i think that might be it. i mean lets face it, since i do tend to idealise i'm more likely to be found attractive to people who need to be idealised a little. and since i need to idealise i'm more likely to find people attractive who are happy / comfortable with that.

complimentary.
it is only when it is extreme that it is unhealthy / pathological...

Interesting post!!