[defyinggravity65]

Hey everybody. I posted awhile back about my boyfriend who I felt drank too much, and who I felt I was abusing in the process of trying to get him to drink less. Well, now we are engaged, and I am very happy. But the day after we got engaged I broke down crying and we had a heart to heart conversation that ended in me basically giving him an ultimatum - either he changes his drinking habits, or I can't marry him. I explained to him that I loved him, but our drinking habits were majorly incompatible and that I felt my frustrations about that would eventually lead to our demise. There is no doubt in my mind about that. He immediately got serious and listened to me for like the first time, ever. He asked me what I wanted him to do, or what kind of drinking I would be okay with, and I gave him a "quota" of sorts. I told him that in order for me to feel comfortable going forward, he could work on his drinking by having no more than 3 drinks on weeknights (Mon-Thurs), and no more than 6 drinks on weekend days (Friday-Sunday), except when he goes out with friends, he could drink however much he wanted. He said that was reasonable and that he would try to work on it. I said that as long as he could stay within those guidelines most of the time, I can clearly visualize a happy future life together. And I didn't say this but it was implied that if he couldn't work on his drinking, I would leave him. Since then, things have been great between us. Really. I feel comfortable and safe, and don't see his drinking as a threat to our future together anymore. And he goes out with friends once or twice a week and drinks and has fun, and I do my own thing. And I'm fine with that, as long as I don't have to watch it happening. Before we had this talk, he would drink at least twice as much. And he's been doing really well, and consistently sticking to the guidelines I gave him....which makes me feel bad. Now I am starting to feel crazy again. Like I am completely insane for making this "quota" for him, and like I'm being way too controlling, and if you refer back to my other post about this...I feel like I was abusive. So my questions are,
1) Was it wrong that I gave him an ultimatum?
2) Was it wrong of me to give him a quota?
I just feel like I have crazy OCD about the whole situation now, and I'm doubting myself entirely. He doesn't seem mad about it or anything, and he even told me he wants to grow up now and that putting limits on it helps him a lot. But I feel insane. What kind of person does this? I want to be with him, but I can't be with him and all the drinking that (used to) take place. I have tried all sorts of ways to "control" it in the past, all of which were useless and some of which could be considered abusive. I feel like a parent telling their kid "only 20 minutes of electronics a day"...like I'm imposing stupid rules on him that I have no right to. But honestly, I didn't (and still don't) know what to do. And it seems to be working, and I don't seem to be hurting him in any way. Things have been really good. But he should be able to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants. Am I a horrible person?

[s4ndm4n2006]

Getting engaged to someone that you feel the need to set guidelines on or regulations ought to tell you something from the get go. I'm of the mind that people ought to accept for the most part, the one they want to spend a lifetime with. It seems to be a very big conflict between you two and if he can only "try" to drink less for you, then it also says something to the effect of he either will fail because he can't which means he has a drinking problem or is unwilling which says he has a problem choosing you over drinking. idk if I'd be one to be thinking of a lifetime with someone before that is determined.

[defyinggravity65]

Originally Posted by s4ndm4n2006

Getting engaged to someone that you feel the need to set guidelines on or regulations ought to tell you something from the get go. I'm of the mind that people ought to accept for the most part, the one they want to spend a lifetime with. It seems to be a very big conflict between you two and if he can only "try" to drink less for you, then it also says something to the effect of he either will fail because he can't which means he has a drinking problem or is unwilling which says he has a problem choosing you over drinking. idk if I'd be one to be thinking of a lifetime with someone before that is determined.

Thanks for the reply. I love him, I really do. It's impossible to see my life without him. But I come from a family of alcoholics and it's only when he drinks heavily, where it becomes very difficult for me to see my life with him. And the thought of living without him terrifies me. I get what you're saying. I should accept him unconditionally. I feel bad. But then I think, what if he can stop binge drinking and he just needs to be motivated? And what if the thought of not getting married is the one thing that's going to motivate him? But I also have OCD, one part of which is centered around alcohol use. It's not fair for me to compulsively try to control him to relieve my own anxiety about it. But, in all honesty, I would be MOST comfortable with him not drinking at all. By me at least trying to set a limit on it, it doesn't seem so endless. It doesn't seem so out of control every single day. Idk what to do.

[leejosepho]

Originally Posted by defyinggravity65

1) Was it wrong that I gave him an ultimatum [that he change his drinking habits]?
2) Was it wrong of me to give him a quota?

No, just understand all of that will eventually (and possibly soon) fade into meaninglessness as his dependence upon the effect of alcohol (a mental-emotional issue) and his inability to control how much he drinks (a physical abnormality) continue to increase.

Please read this: "To Wives"

Chronic alcoholism is not a story problem, it is a very-real condition shattering dreams and destroying lives.

[defyinggravity65]

Originally Posted by leejosepho

No, just understand all of that will eventually (and possibly soon) fade into meaninglessness as his dependence upon the effect of alcohol (a mental-emotional issue) and his inability to control how much he drinks (a physical abnormality) continue to increase.

Please read this: "To Wives"

Chronic alcoholism is not a story problem, it is a very-real condition shattering dreams and destroying lives.

Thank you for sharing that with me!!

[Open Eyes]

What you have posted about is that you are agreeing to becoming your alcoholic boyfriend's enabler and codependent. And he wants to drink without limits when he is out with his friends.

You have crazy OCD about his drinking now? It will get worse unless he stops drinking and learns how to live his life sober.

[Bill3]

But he should be able to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants.

Maybe so. But also you should be able to have a sober fiance/husband if that is what you want.

He has a choice: drink heavily and be alone or be sober and be with you.

You have a choice: a sober fiance/husband or a not sober one.

Neither one has to marry the other unconditionally. You each have the freedom to choose.

[healingme4me]

The sentence in a response about shattered lives and dreams speaks volumes about marrying into a life where alcohol is a centerpiece.

The desire to set a quota isn't unheard of. Rather common in fact. It's not, in my eyes/mind/heart controlling in the sense of being bossy with unwarranted demands. It is about trying to bring a sense of hope and stability to your life and future. It certainly is a 'flag'. Beyond the quota lies an underlying wonderment of how will the future be? Will he be an emotionally available and emotionally present partner and friend? It can get lonely in ways you cannot imagine unless you've lived it.

Love is a Choice.

[leejosepho]

Originally Posted by healingme4me

Love is a Choice.

Yes, and it is an act of one's will, not a mere emotion to be felt.

[unaluna]

Have you attended AL-anon meetings?

[leejosepho]

Originally Posted by unaluna

Have you attended AL-anon meetings?

I once heard an A.A. long-timer say Loretta Lynn sang what should have become the Al-Anon theme song...

"

"

[defyinggravity65]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

What you have posted about is that you are agreeing to becoming your alcoholic boyfriend's enabler and codependent. And he wants to drink without limits when he is out with his friends.

You have crazy OCD about his drinking now? It will get worse unless he stops drinking and learns how to live his life sober.

Ok. So where do I go from here?

[defyinggravity65]

Originally Posted by healingme4me

The sentence in a response about shattered lives and dreams speaks volumes about marrying into a life where alcohol is a centerpiece.

The desire to set a quota isn't unheard of. Rather common in fact. It's not, in my eyes/mind/heart controlling in the sense of being bossy with unwarranted demands. It is about trying to bring a sense of hope and stability to your life and future. It certainly is a 'flag'. Beyond the quota lies an underlying wonderment of how will the future be? Will he be an emotionally available and emotionally present partner and friend? It can get lonely in ways you cannot imagine unless you've lived it.

Love is a Choice.

Thanks for this. I agree that love is a choice. But what can I do? How do I choose to love his drinking?

[leejosepho]

Originally Posted by defyinggravity65

I agree that love is a choice. But what can I do? How do I choose to love his drinking?

There are two possible points there:

1) You can choose whether to love him enough to sacrifice your own life while he destroys everything and everyone around him while on his way to an early grave;

2) He can choose whether to love you enough by getting the specific help he will need to bring all of that to a complete end right here-and-now.

[healingme4me]

Originally Posted by defyinggravity65

Thanks for this. I agree that love is a choice. But what can I do? How do I choose to love his drinking?

I can fully appreciate what you mean when asking to love his 'drinking' after all it is part of who he is and who has been since you've known him. Expecting another to change because of wedding vows seems unfair.

But it's not unfair to have a serious discussion about visions and expectations of your future together.

For instance, is it a reasonable expectation that alcohol will free flow at children's birthday parties, if you start a family? Is it a reasonable expectation to be able to go places and do things in the evening hours if driving sober is an expectation? Who will be the designated driver? Are there activities that you both do that don't involve drinking?

These are valid concerns to address. Choosing a future with shared goals is part of that expression about love being a choice.

Another side to it, is the resentment factor. Will you still feel the same, ten/fifteen years from now?

[Erebos]

Ok, whilst I agree that 95% of drug and alcohol abuse ends in disaster.

I am a long-term functioning drug addict of 24 years. I have raised 4 kids solo,my eldest is in university.
My younger daughter's is on scholarship to a prestigious music school.
My younger boys are doing very well.

It doesn't have to destroy lives, but you have too+he has to admit and acknowledge his problem and be willing to manage it.

Having said all this, the success rate of functioning alcoholics compared to functioning addicts isn't good.

[leejosepho]

Originally Posted by Erebos

...the success rate of functioning alcoholics compared to functioning addicts isn't good.

Yes, and that is because of a significant difference between alcoholism and addiction:

1) When an addict takes his or her "drug of choice", the intellect, emotions and physical body are all satisfied;

2) When the alcoholic takes a couple of drinks, the intellect and emotions are satisfied but the physical body begins demanding more.

As first observed over three-thousand years ago:

"First the alcoholic takes a drink;"<< the mental-emotional part
"Then the drink takes a drink;" << caused by some abnormal body chemistry
"Then drink takes the alcoholic." << Organic Brain Syndrome ("wet brain") or early grave

Addiction and alcoholism are not the same.

[Open Eyes]

Originally Posted by defyinggravity65

Ok. So where do I go from here?

First of all you need to be willing to be informed. Be informed not only about the disease of alcoholism, but how you are presenting questions that basically ask, "how do I embrace denial and become an enabler?". You are already walking on eggshells around the FACT that your boyfriend needs to drink every night and he has expressed that he wants you to give him permission to drink obsessively with his friends on the weekends. You are literally asking, "how to I learn to love the alcoholism?". Not only that but what you are also doing is falling into his trap of "mothering him", and he is pushing your buttons to play that role with him. This disease where the spouse is expected to live in denial and also be the alcoholic's mother is only going to get even more demanding over time because your SO will become more addicted and will not be growing up but instead will escape becoming a responsible adult more and more as time passes where his life revolves around the alcohol which is what you are already witnessing and that is more important to him than you are. And, when you agree to live in denial you are also agreeing to living your life with someone who will become unpredictable and a major stress and worry for you and THAT is agreeing to a lonely stressful life. This is because the alcoholic really doesn't have control over his disease, he is in fact POWERLESS and he will keep YOU on that same path where you also will realize how powerless YOU ARE.

Honestly, if someone had explained to me that my husband was a binge alcoholic and what I was going to face being married to him, I would have NEVER chosen to marry him. I suffered emotional abuse and I was very lonely. I did not understand that when my husband drank each drink he had created his weakness to just drink more until he was completely disabled and my husband would experience blackouts. I could not understand because I was not one that lost control when I drank, I would have no problem having a glass of wine or two and stopping. I did not realize that when my husband drank, his brain lost control and his disease took over and unless I was there to limit him, he would just drink away and forget about me or anything other than the alcohol. Believe me, there is NOTHING TO LOVE about ALCOHOLISM/DRINKING when one is in a relationship with someone who has a problem with the alcohol.

You ask, what do I do? Make it a point to get informed and when you make a decision, make sure you are making that decision with your eyes wide open because YOU will most definitely SUFFER as this disease is progressive and YOU can't stop it, the only one that can do that is HIM, and that doesn't happen until the alcoholic loses something very important and often they don't stop until they lose everything and hit rock bottom to where they realize their life has become totally unmanageable.

What I learned about this problem/disease is how the individual is very self absorbed when they are actively engaged, then, when they finally realize they have a problem, and they reach out for help, again they are very self absorbed with learning how to live their life "sober".

I am sitting here typing this looking back on my own life where I had to learn the hard way about what it is like to love someone who has this disease and I have been married for 37 years and I am 60. I have been lonely in so many different ways and I have been lied to, hurt, emotionally abused and I was always fighting how he wanted me to MOTHER HIM, instead of my experiencing another adult partner in my life. Oh, and a lot of his "friends" or drinking buddies died too.

[treevoice]

Looks like you've had a lot of great responses. I probably don't have anything better to add, but I've actually been the fiancee that was given an ultimatum so maybe I can offer a little perspective, maybe?

I used alcohol as a social crutch, which I realize in retrospect, but at the time - I thought I was just being a fun and youthful person living my life. My (at the time) boyfriend started to voice concerns about how much I was drinking, and at first, I was really offended by it. It made me angry that he didn't trust me to keep myself under control. He would ask me to drink less, and I would for a time, only to go back to my old ways - or worse. This went on for a year or two and we started talking more seriously about marriage, and one day, after I made a particularly thorough *** of myself at a social gathering, he gave me the ultimatum that I needed to cut back to one drink a night (with as much as I wanted on the weekends). I did okay for a while, then I didn't. He could have (maybe should have) left me then, but I made the case for myself that I was an adult woman who could make my own decisions and he backed down, for a time. All of this was taking place over years. Finally, I got out of hand. I lost my job, I started having panic attacks if I didn't have a drink, and honestly, I don't remember the better part of a year of my life. He definitely should have left me, but he didn't. He gave me another ultimatum. He would stay with me as long as I *tried* to stop drinking. There were days we almost broke up, and other days I would pull myself up again, only to spiral back down. Then he started helping me pack, and that was when it became truly real for me. Don't get me wrong, I've had slipups since then, but that was really when I started taking it seriously. Started going to AA, etc. Once I was a year sober, we married. Now I'm about 3 years sober and our relationship is better than it has ever been.

I guess my point in sharing this is that, while it may seem like you're being harsh on him now, your ultimatum is actually very reasonable and it's for both of your best interest. If that is not something he can live with, I forsee bigger and worse problems. One thing I always tell people who are struggling with a partner who drinks to much is, if they truly have a problem, it's always worse than you think it is for longer than you thought it was. Alcoholics hide their behaviors as much as they can get away with. If it wasn't for my (then boyfriend, now husband) really pressuring me to face my problem and deal with it, I very well could be dead right now, or at least much much worse off. Don't beat yourself up, I think you're doing the right thing.

[Sunflower123]

treevoice has an excellent perspective and insight. If you do marry him go into it knowing you may encounter a problem. Your ultimatum may work and it may not (in which case you have a decision to make). He is an alcoholic. Go into it knowing that. Best wishes for the both of you. I hope it works out.

Isn't an ultimatum simply a verbal declaration of your own tolerance levels?

We all get to have things we allow in our lives and things we won't. It's part of adulting...and now (before you agree to have and to hold from this day forward) is the right time to make those decisions for yourself.

And I'm not talking about any number of drinks you'll allow, but how you want to live your life.

[Misssy2]

I'm an alcoholic and it sounds to me that he is an alcoholic.

Which means, he will continue drinking and for the most part NOT be able to maintain the "quota".

Alcoholics (to live fullfilling lives) have to stop drinking completely.

It sounds as if you are BOTH in denial that you can control this "demon" you can't.

I understand that you are in love with him...and he is probably in love with you.

But, a life with alcohol or drugs involved is not a good life for anyone no matter how you look at it.

I don't know how old you are...but I do know that you DONT want to hear this:

You can not marry this guy...this is not the "best" situation for you. He would need to be alcohol free for at least a year before I would consider spending the rest of my life with him. It does not sound like he is even considering stopping the drink...which means there will be constant turmoil even on the days he is not drinking because you are always going to be on edge about this problem until it is removed.

As an alcoholic I will tell you. He can not stop because he loves you. He has to WANT to stop and it has to come from inside of him....

You really need to think of yourself...and understand that people are telling you that this relationship is not the ideal situation for you.

You trying to set limits is controlling of another human being and you are setting yourself up to be let down because of the nature of this condition (alcoholism). I hate to see you remain depressed and on edge for the rest of your life.

Yes, you will be depressed if you leave this relationship...but that won't last forever....marrying an alcoholic when you KNOW it is a problem is setting you up for a long future of unhappiness