The ELEPHANT in the relationship

Thanks for sharing ((sarahsweets)) I really appreciate your input in that you are someone who did have a problem. I am sure it took a lot for you to finally realize you had a problem and finally choose to do something about it. It was important to me to show respect for that too. You are a caring member here and I have seen your many posts where you have shown respect to someone that is challenged and you share your wisdom from what you have learned yourself. You stopped self medicating and instead of running from your challenges you learned to face them and work through them instead.

When my husband was active, he did things that were VERY selfish. He tended to have friends that were active and they were often way worse than him. I had tried to move away thinking that if he got away from these individuals then it would help. I had not realized that that would not matter because he would STILL have the problem no matter how far I tried to move away. What the individual finally has to learn is that part of the change and recovery is how they have to give up their drinking buddies and instead make NEW friends that often turn out to be in these groups that are making it a point to stay sober and change for the better.

I think in my case, even though it was so hard for me to support that effort that often left me very LONELY, what I had learned was going to be important when it came time for me to help the most important person in my life.

Sometimes, a person refuses to bite the bullet, and that is when even though you love that person, you have to walk away. When someone said "I want to make up my own mind", I do know EXACTLY how that feels. It's something each person has to sit and really think through.

I just want to thank you @sarahsweets for sharing your perspective too. I have a lot of dry drunks in my family too, and they are just as a challenge to be around/with.

@seesaw - good post as always

Wow, this is an old thread and even though I had not thought about it due to dealing with so many other things, it's always something present in my life due to how my husband is so active in AA and helping others learn how to live their lives sober.

Covid made it extra challenging due to people not being allowed to hold meetings due to Covid restrictions. I have watched my husband adapt by leaning how to hold Zoom meetings. Then as time passed and the weather got warmer they found ways to meet outside too so at least they could physically see each other. Unfortunately, the stress from Covid was hard for some that ended up going out after being sober for a good amount of time. It made me realize how very important those meetings were in terms of helping people maintain their sobriety.

There has been a big debate in terms of if closing so much down has caused other major challenges that are just as bad as the Virus itself. Well, there was so much "unknown" for a while and like anything else we always learn more with time and unfortunate consequences due to lack of knowledge. Unfortunately, some that went back out due to Covid did die, not from Covid, but their body failing due to the alcohol. Hard to know what is best. So many things many don't know about unless they are exposed to these unfortunate results.

One thing I have learned is "alcohol" ALWAYS makes things worse. I see it over and over again in my life. I happened to have a conversation about this with my husband yesterday because someone he has been trying to help once again went out drinking. This time I was able to say that it's an awful feeling when you are with someone, be it a friend or a spouse that is a binge drinker. Ok for a while than not, then ok then not it's an awful way to live.

Alcohol is a problem for many it destroys relationships and over does mindsets. I mean that when someone is depressed alcohol is exacerbates that. This goes for all emotions. I used to drink myself. I do not drink anymore i think its important to address the issues as to why the person drinks. The reasons behind it are worse than the habit itself.

Alcohol doesn't solve problems, it's an escape for people who struggle to problem solve and control their emotions and experience social anxieties. It tends to cause the frontal executive part of the brain to slowly become disabled making it harder and harder to control one's normal capacity to think before they say or act.

Alcohol is the second most common addiction, to pornography. It is easy to overcome because people who drink alcohol tend to do it to try and make themselves feel better and to fill a void.

Hi Prycejosh, I'm pretty certain that tobacco is the most common addiction in the US, per the research studies. Can you explain why you think alcoholism is easy to overcome? No one I know who is a recovering alcoholic would describe it as easy.

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Originally Posted by Prycejosh1987 Alcohol is the second most common addiction, to pornography. It is easy to overcome because people who drink alcohol tend to do it to try and make themselves feel better and to fill a void.

I am an alcoholic in recovery and I assume you it’s not easy to overcome. I’d love to know where you’re coming from.

I am actually glad this thread has resurfaced. A part of my own ptsd challenge is dealing with someone who had this disease of alcoholism.

The one thing individuals who have this challenge get good at is DENIAL. However, they also tend to BLAME OTHERS when things in their life get too challenging for them be it at a job or in a relationship. They may CLAIM to have empathy for others, but truth is THEY DO NOT, instead they tend to be extremely wound up in their OWN emotional challenges. And as they NEVER learned how to deal with their emotions, they turn to ALCOHOL as their method of COPING.

RED FLAG******RED FLAG******RED FLAG******* "I CANT REMEMBER, I WAS BLACKED OUT!!!!*****RED FLAG that means "I AM AN ALCOHOLIC AND CAN'T STOP". Blacking out is a huge RED FLAG that someone is an ALCOHOLIC.

15 Threatening Signs of Alcoholism - Page 16 of 16

The above link requires patience to read because of the pop ups. However, it does a good job at explaining this disease of alcoholism. Sorry I copied and pasted at page 16 out of 16. However, you can read it by scrolling to the next and instead of clicking on the next, click on the arrows meaning back or previous.

Truth is it is the true culprit behind MOST relationship failures, including making the WRONG choices in who to engage in a relationship with. And the MOOD CHANGES are due to NEEDING THE ALCOHOL to at least feel somewhat stable. There is no such thing as a FUNCTIONING ALCOHOLIC either and the longer someone engages the less they can function and the worse their BLAMING OTHERS gets. The TRUTH is seen in how the alcohol literally CHANGES THE BRAIN.

Actually an alcoholic doesn't think a partner who may be drug dependent is a deal breaker or a problem. HOWEVER, what that really means is if a partner is dependent then THEY CAN BE TOO.

An alcoholic learns how to take steps to AVOID being detected. They often choose VODKA as they believe that VODKA is not detectible on their breath.

There is NO TRUE RELATIONSHIP when it comes to this disease, that's because the TRUE RELATIONSHIP IS WITH THE ALCOHOL with the alcoholic. It is also not uncommon for an alcoholic to choose a partner who is also an alcoholic. And FRIENDS are not real friends, but instead others who drink and party which gives the alcoholic a form of company.

The disease of alcoholism is most definitely not an easy thing to overcome.

Often a person has to hit rock bottom, no job, no partner, and being alone WITH THEIR BOTTLE OF ALCOHOL if they can even have enough to get that bottle for them to finally admit that this disease has destroyed their life and they need help.

RED FLAG!!!! An ACTIVE alcoholic will NOT want to read this thread because they do NOT want to know, instead they prefer DENIAL.

I don’t love my (alcoholic) dad, haven’t for a long time but I do struggle with my lack of desire to even try and be friends with him; I know that probably doesn’t help him but honestly, in some ways I think it’s a form of emotional self defence on my part.
Unfortunately I feel I’ve taken on the judgmental attitude and resentment some of the rest of my family have, as I grew up with him being an alcoholic in denial (a virtual echo chamber, now I think about it. I literally never heard anyone refer to it as an illness while I was growing up). I do realise it’s more complicated now I’m older, so my attitude has softened a bit, but it’s still difficult to fully accept that it’s an illness, especially when he says things like “I just enjoy it too much to stop”.

I am sorry (((Roxanne))) and I understand what you mean by distancing because of your need to emotionally protect yourself.

When I started this thread, I wanted to find a way to respect this problem as a disease and that it is very hard for someone to climb away from and commit to living their lives sober. Yet, at the same time to also respect how loving someone or having a parent, spouse or friend with this disease affects the person living with them too. One thing I know is that I simply cannot engage with or be friends with an active alcoholic. I have truely suffered too much emotional abuse by an active alcoholic. However, when someone is finally admitting they have a problem and is committed to learning how to live their life sober and begins to actually realize how THEIR disease has hurt others, I am very supportive to that healing process.

An individual that has been in recovery and has gotten to the level where they are willing to admit the things they did that hurt others will not have a problem with reading my thread here, at least that was my hope. In fact for someone who is in recovery and helps others to also recover will agree with much that I have shared. Actually perhaps even more so because if they are trying to help someone embrace living a sober life, they do know first hand that this is no easy task. Not only that but they also learn that at times the individual they try to help ends up going back into engaging the disease, so they see the other side of the equation where caring for someone with this disease can be painful.

When someone is an active alcoholic there most definitely is a lot of cognitive DISTORTIONS involved. Along with this are the shifting moods and tendency to act on IMPULSE. And blackouts CAN BE SCARY, especially when the Hyde part comes out.

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Originally Posted by Open Eyes The one thing individuals who have this challenge get good at is DENIAL. However, they also tend to BLAME OTHERS when things in their life get too challenging for them be it at a job or in a relationship. They may CLAIM to have empathy for others, but truth is THEY DO NOT, instead they tend to be extremely wound up in their OWN emotional challenges. And as they NEVER learned how to deal with their emotions, they turn to ALCOHOL as their method of COPING.

I disagree with some of this. I have always had empathy and never denied my alcoholism or the hurt I caused. If anything I was harder on myself. It was the physical addiction that was hard to break as I was already in therapy the whole time I was drinking.

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An alcoholic learns how to take steps to AVOID being detected. They often choose VODKA as they believe that VODKA is not detectible on their breath.

Nope. I was a merlot girl- three bottles a day. I oozed alcohol and knew it.

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There is NO TRUE RELATIONSHIP when it comes to this disease, that's because the TRUE RELATIONSHIP IS WITH THE ALCOHOL with the alcoholic. It is also not uncommon for an alcoholic to choose a partner who is also an alcoholic. And FRIENDS are not real friends, but instead others who drink and party which gives the alcoholic a form of company.

Again this may be your experience but it isnt mine and from my meetings its not the majority. I have a wonderful husband of 25 years who never drank or did drugs. All of my friends are "normal" and sober. Even when I was drinking was one of the only ones. My relationship with my husband is very true- in fact literal love at first site and I wasnt always an alcoholic.

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Often a person has to hit rock bottom, no job, no partner, and being alone WITH THEIR BOTTLE OF ALCOHOL if they can even have enough to get that bottle for them to finally admit that this disease has destroyed their life and they need help.

My rock bottom was weeping at 4 in the morning and I had full support of my entire family.

Sure denial is a big part of addiction but it is with just about anything uncomfortable within ourselves. Denial over being too fat, too thin, too dumb, too ugly, a million things. Some of us accepted it completely and so desired a change but were physical slaves to it.

@sarahsweets, thank you for your input and sharing your perspective. I do try to be mindful and say "tend to" and "may". Actually, I probably have a lot in common with your husband as I "loved" someone who had a problem with alcohol and I did not care to drink and use drugs. I wanted to find someone who "stayed" and helped their partner as their partner learned how to live their life "sober". I could not find such a person and that is because of the high divorce rate due to the emotional strain on the person who loves the alcoholic. The only person I did find that stayed was themselves a recovering alcoholic.

My personal challenge with my husband is that my husband was a binge alcoholic. So with my husband it was not the typical red flags of an individual that was a daily consumer of alcohol. Over the years of meeting different individuals via my husband being active in helping others learn to live sober, I have learned more and there is more to the challenge in that there can also be an underlying personality disorder or other mental health issue. And you are correct about there being a more daily physical dependence that makes it even harder to break away from. For myself, my husband was not yet totally alcohol dependent where he developed the everyday physical need.

Yes, there are alcoholics that prefer wine as wine gets absorbed in the esophogus and the person experiences the affects of the alcohol faster. My father became a wine drinker and used the excuse that drinking red wine is healthy for you. Thing is, a person can't get away with that when they are in an environment where others at a job can smell the alcohol. So the choice becomes Vodka in hopes to avoid revealing the odor that shows there is a problem.

My father was an alcoholic. We never called it that and I don't know why. Just hearing the can pop open would make me so angry and I had to get away from him. Maybe my parents didn't refer to it as alcoholism bc of denial. He was also and still is very self involved and emotionally unavailable and emotionally unintelligent. Our relationship is very complex and the way I feel about my dad is very complex. I don't usually tell him I love him, and while I do care about him, I don't know if I love him. I definitely didn't in the past. He has stopped drinking (at least, in front of us), and is more manageable to be around.

I think a lot depends on the generation @WovenGalaxy. The consumption of alcohol was more acceptible in my parent's generation for example. It's really understandable that you have these complex feelings you describe about your father.

Actually, what I learned about is how statistically the marriage ends in divorce after a period of a spouses sobriety. This is due to how the nondrinking spouse does CARE about the alcoholic spouse and once they feel their spouse is gaining they finally feel confident enough to walk away.

What you have shared is common in that "often" the parent who is alcoholic is not emotionally available to their child/spouse. This disease itself is consuming and the alcoholic tends to be very self absorbed.

That being said it's very complex in that often there is an underlying personality disorder as well. Or, some other mental health issue where at first the alcohol is used an escape or self medicating coping method.

I know that for myself, I had to learn that my husband's emotional maturity level was around the age of 13 when he began using alcohol. I was told he would push my buttons to mother him and that I would have to resist these buttons.

What is hard for the child of the alcoholic is that without knowing it they become codependents where they often parent the parent who is alcohol dependent. They are also encouraged to be enablers not even knowing what that means.

When I began this thread, I wanted to do so with respect for this disease as I mentioned. Yet, in my own life I have suffered due to someone in my life that had a problem with alcohol. Because of that there are times where some personal anger comes out not so much for the person, but for how this disease affects that person and how their disease and behaviors affected me personally.

With that, I am not trying to come off as a professional or know it all. Instead I have had to learn to understand this problem and I even reached out for help with therapy too. @sarahsweets, I appreciate your perspective too because you have had the challenge personally so you offer a different perspective.

It's complex because people with different challenges can develop alcohol use disorder. A person can have an underlying social anxiety challenge, or have bipolar and begins using alcohol only to become addicted. A person can have a personality disorder and use alcohol to cope and develops a dependency problem. There are narcissists that develop alcohol dependency. So it's not a all X's are because it's actually more complex and the only thing that is common is the progression of the disease and the damage it causes to someone physically and psychologically. These changes can be very hard on the person who is the child or the spouse or family member.

@sarahsweets the weeping is because alcohol is a depressant and reduces serotonin in the brain. You were trying to chase the dopamine and all the while slowly reducing your serotonin levels. Your body was dependent on the alcohol to function, all the while it was making you more and more depressed. And a person also has to consume more and more alcohol to gain the dopamine euphoria they are chasing to feel good.