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Default Feb 07, 2021 at 12:12 PM
  #61
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Some individuals have both Narcissistic Personality Disorder and an active addiction. Coping with someone with a dual diagnosis can be more difficult than if that person suffered from only narcissism or untreated alcoholism.

The following approaches can help you cope with someone who is a narcissist, an alcoholic, or both:

Recognize that people with personality disorders and addictions hold self-serving and distorted views of themselves and others that they are resistant to give up.
Recognize that you can’t stop another’s narcissistic or alcoholic behaviors.
Recognize that you don’t cause someone else’s narcissism or addiction.
Don’t make excuses for the dysfunctional behavior or narcissists or alcoholics.
Don’t try to protect narcissists or alcoholics from the consequences of their dysfunctional actions.
Be clear on what you will and will not tolerate from a narcissist or addict.

Also, it's important to understand that once you do set a boundary you may be subjected to rages and anger and efforts to make you out to be "the bad guy".

It simply may have to be that YOU are at fault and deserve being REJECTED.

Last edited by Open Eyes; Feb 07, 2021 at 03:19 PM..
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Default Feb 08, 2021 at 10:10 AM
  #62
Alcoholic Spouse | What To Do If My Spouse Is An Alcoholic

I have been sitting here for a while this morning and reading about what it means to love someone who has the disease/illness of alcoholism. There are a lot of challenges it causes to someone who is sober, be it a child of an alcoholic, a spouse of an alcoholic, a parent of an alcoholic, and a sibling of an alcoholic, or even having a friend with the problem.

I have most definitely suffered from a lot of cognitive dissonence because of this challenge. I have also suffered a lot of emotional abuse too. Someone who has this problem can "seem" nice and then they can have a darker side too. There is definitely a Jeckle and Hyde that presents with this challenge and I have been on the receiving end of it many times throughout my life.

I do believe that individuals that suffer from alcoholism deserve to get help. It's true that these individuals are at war with themselves just as Jamie Lee Curtis describes in her recent discussion about being sober for 22 years. The problem with this challenge is in how consuming it is and how there is very little room for the person who is on the recieving end. I do believe that people that become alcohol or drug abusers don't start out by wanting to become the addict. I think at first the person simply enjoys the high and relaxed feeling they experience from alcohol/drugs and it's possible that individual doesn't realize how they begin engaging more and more.

When I talk to my older brother, he expresses a lot of anger. At times it's hard to listen to what he shares too. He has been very respectful and had helped me with some extremely challenging situations when it comes to my older sister. Yet, at the same time there is a limit to the emotions I am able to express. And that is indicitive of what it's like when it comes to growing up or being around an alcoholic.

There is always this golden rule I had to follow that I didn't even realize, "always make sure you stick to talking about THEM". I have to remember the importance of making sure I keep things directed towards THEIR NEEDS because if I don't I will most definitely face some kind of blow back. Yup, as long as I keep things about THEM AND THEIR NEEDS, it's safer for me. Did you ever have someone tell you they have no respect for you and yet that individual had a problem with alcohol addiction?

There is this commercial that comes on where someone is singing "Walk a mile in my shoes, Walk a mile in my shoes". And one of the things that has come VERY CLEAR to me is how quickly people can judge you when they have NO IDEA what your life has been like.

I was the last one to leave home and there were many nights where I would come home and my father would be in the kitchen with a fire lit drinking his wine alone. I often sat and talked to him until the sun began to come up. I did not do much talking about myself, but instead I listened to him talk. There were a lot of things he experienced in his life. To KNOW someone is being able to sit and LISTEN and I did want to know my father. I did not think about his sitting there drinking that wine as alcoholism. Instead there was something "lonely" about what he was doing. I learned that by sitting and listening to him, which I did do several times, that I got to walk in his shoes, sort of like reading a book about him and what his life was like. I look back and think that he had to face a lot of challenging things in his life despite being very young. He tended to be very much into "self" with all these things he shared. I think he did need a presence he could talk about it all with.

Years later when he could no longer sit and drink his wine because he fell down one time too many and broke some ribs, I was at my sister's house and noticed him quietly sitting alone by the fire. So I sat with him and began talking to him about his past. I pretty much got so I could tell he was staring into that fire and recalling his past (something he did a lot). I guess I knew he was alone with it so I sat with him so he would not be so alone. And that last time as he was sharing things with me, some of which he was repeating, I thought about how very young he was when he experienced all these things. I said to him, "My god daddy, you were only 17 and so young, that's really just a child yet". And I actually knew this being a mother of a 17 year old and KNOWING how young that really is. And for the first time he looked right into my eyes, and this time the one I was talking to was that very young child that had to see and understand things even though he was really just still a child. It was that young boy that waited his entire life to have someone else recognize how hard it was for him when he was so very young. Actually, I came across a picture of my father dressed in his uniform and OMG he really was just a boy in that uniform. We tend to think of them as men, but that's NOT what I saw in this picture. No, this was really just a young kid.

Back then no one talked about how the war affected them. These young boys that came back home as men were expected to JUST move on and get a job and be a functioning civilian again. They were expected to JUST MAN UP and my father tried to do just that. Yet, it was clear he was alone with all the things that young boy experienced and witnessed.

Yes, my older brother has a lot of anger, and I do know he has a right to his anger. My father's history most definitely created a person who genuinely did not have the ability to be a good parent to his son.

There are a lot of things about my parent's generation that created challenges. There were a lot of parents that drank too and it was something many in that generation engaged in. My father never really got over what he saw and experienced during the war. He went to serve before he got to finish his senior year of high school and that's what he had to complete when he came home from war and then he put himself through college. His father served in both WWI and WWII and his father was an alcoholic, and a mean drunk. So my father did not really have a very good example of what a healthy father is like.

There are a lot of things my generation did not have an understanding of. I never used the terms toxic, triggers or abuser or this person and that person is narcissistic like is so widely used now. Most in my generation just learned to work around different social challenges and personal family challenges. My parents pretty much taught us that it's ok to love someone who presents challenges. My mother was one who constantly said "you have to accept people for what they are". It's very different today than it was when I was younger. We certainly have more knowledge about what alcohol use does to someone's brain. It's actually been rather triggering for me to read and learn about it and remembering what I dealt with in my past that frightened and confused me.

I also have some anger myself. Mostly anger about what it does to people and how that has affected me very deeply as a person. I had a lawyer who had a problem and was at the point where he developed the shakes, lack of sleep, lack of being able to remember and he HAD been a top lawyer and very well known. His years of drinking was taking a toll and he should have retired but didn't. And he made a mess of my case and I literally could not find ANY lawyer for a very long time to help me. As soon as they heard his name they ALL declined. I would sit with my therapist trying to get help and at one point my therapist said that he had been wondering if I was dealing with an alcoholic. Yes, but it was more than that because he was mentally declining as well. People knew but chose to look the other way, after all, he was at one time highly regarded and no one wanted to see the reality. They just all distanced even his own son who also practiced law. What should have taken two years to settle ended up taking nine years. And that's only because I did finally find a lawyer that COULD see it and COULD look at my case which at that point was going to get thrown out because of how he was failing. He ended up having 11 suits against him for malpractice and finally he got caught driving drunk.

When I say ANYONE can have a problem, I AINT KIDDING.

Last edited by Open Eyes; Feb 08, 2021 at 12:05 PM..
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Default Feb 08, 2021 at 10:20 AM
  #63
It’s a good thing groups like Al anon and Al ateen exist.

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Default Feb 08, 2021 at 11:15 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by sarahsweets View Post
It’s a good thing groups like Al anon and Al ateen exist.
I did try that when I was younger because I did need help. However, at that time when I went there was a lot of encouragement for me to end my marriage. Because my husband did stop and committed to going to meetings I did not want to leave him because I respected the fact that he was trying.

At that time it was VERY stigmatized and when people found out there was a challenge I was pretty much black listed. People can be VERY cruel. Things were a lot different 30 years ago.

I gave my husband an ultimatum and he went to an AA meeting that same night and has not had any alcohol since. He admitted he had a problem and since then has been involved in staying sober and helping others to do the same. If he did not stop and see he had a problem, I would have divorced him. But he did not do that.

It IS important to get help if you stop drinking otherwise a person can become a dry drunk where they still behave badly even without the alcohol. Dry drunks can exhibit horrific behaviors. I think that is part of my older sister's problems. My husband has said several times that he wondered if she was a closet drunk or a dry drunk due to how off the wall her behaviors got.
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Default Feb 09, 2021 at 03:20 AM
  #65
You were encouraged to end your marriage??? That’s seems really harsh on the other group participants! I never felt it was my business to tell another woman what to do with her marriage you know what I mean? I’m sure you can understand the alcoholism doesn’t mean it’s the end of everything right? I mean I know there are people that have to go there I think it’s admirable that you stayed with your husband as long as you did. And my husband see with me although I don’t know that I would be considered a horrible alcoholic in the sense of what other people have experienced, I feel like it’s traumatic for anybody who is not the alcoholic in the relationship.

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Default Feb 09, 2021 at 04:25 AM
  #66
YES!! People told me "you are still young, divorce him and save yourself". I was in my early thirties at the time and I agree about not telling someone to divorce their husband unless ofcourse there is physical abuse and the husband is dangerous in some way. It was different 30 years ago, there was a lot of stigma, a lot of social shaming. It was actually a very lonely time for me.

Keep in mind there was no internet or even cell phones back then. I think people tend to think in the now with all that is available now rather than what it was like back where there was none of what is so common today.

I have been married 40 years.

Last edited by Open Eyes; Feb 09, 2021 at 05:00 AM..
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Default Feb 09, 2021 at 04:40 AM
  #67
As an aside my own experiences with some AA groups have included shaming much to my dismay particularly when it came to medications for mental health and illness treatment. Also in particular a book used at a meeting I used to go to called “living sober “ addresses the fact that “we are not doctors “ and that medication management should be left up to a professional.
When I first got sober years ago I began by going to all noon meetings around me. They were mostly all men, many retired and some women. 85% of them or so were full of kindness and wisdom especially the older retiree grandfather types. Unfortunately the younger, perhaps more suffering ones were the ones who seemed to get on their soap boxes and rail against the evils of big pharma lumping crucial medications like antidepressants in with easily abused medications like opiates and benzos.

It’s not my business or job to tell anyone what they should take. I’ve never been one to completely write off a certain med or class of meds as big no-no’s. I’ve had 5 surgeries in 2.5 years. I’ve needed pain medicine while recovering. My doctors were all in on my history. I took my meds and all is well now. I would listen to some of these younger holier than thou people preach nonsense and I would even question my own treatment even though I’ve been stable now for 20 years. At the time in my early days maybe I had been stable for 12 years or so. Thankfully I had a good sponsor who knew that what I needed medically was a doctors job. My sobriety was a AA person’s “job” as far as advice goes. Anyhow I guess this is all just me rambling.

My husband was advised to try our local alanon. He’s very private and quiet and was already in therapy. He went once and came home and told me it wasn’t for him. He said the amount of what he perceived as self aggrandizing and self pity was detrimental to his own needs. That combined with overwhelming questions and bombardment after the meeting turned him off. He stuck to therapy. My daughter though really benefited from Alateen.

My sponsor also had a drug addict ex husband and daughter and even though she was in aa she said alanon was invaluable to her learning to deal with them. So it’s not always bad and works for many. I can’t figure out why I’ve seen various forms of shaming in recovery communities. Not tons of it but enough to make many people afraid of being truly open.

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Default Feb 09, 2021 at 05:20 AM
  #68
I don't see your input as rambling at all. I guess I am more like your husband as I did not care for the depression I experienced at the alanon meetings. I actually needed to be with others who chose to stay and support their husband who is committing to sobriety. I wanted a strong presence to mentor me, but I did not find that and that's because the divorce rate was so high. The couples who did stay tended to both have alcoholism issues and were both working on their sobriety and also attended alanon meetings.

Yes, my husband got a lot of help from older individuals that mentored him like you described. They were kind, good caring people. My husband was young too, many at that time his age did not want to admit they had a problem. Years later my husband would come home and say "you will never guess who I saw at a meeting", and often it was people that distanced and were not so nice way back when. It was a challenge when his mentors passed away. As you know, there ARE good people in the rooms that mentor others. My husband is now one of them.

They really work hard at trying to have meetings too despite how churches shut doors due to Covid.
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Default Feb 09, 2021 at 05:31 AM
  #69
Recovering from surgery is a challenge. People can develop addictions to pain medications. Doctors are more careful now about medicating with morphine. However, when having a very invasive surgery, morphine is the only thing that can help as the pain can be horrific. I was completely opened up due to my body being full of toxins from a leaking appendix. It was horrific waking up to what was done to me. I do wish they had told me they would be taking the morphine away. Nothing else works like morphine, that much I know first hand.
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Default Feb 09, 2021 at 05:46 AM
  #70
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I can’t figure out why I’ve seen various forms of shaming in recovery communities. Not tons of it but enough to make many people afraid of being truly open.
A lot depends on who is running the meeting. Some individuals are know it alls and try to change the format when the format, if followed really works well and is tried and true. They often ask my husband to chair meetings because he prefers to run them the way that his mentors did that helped him. Also, not everyone attends willingly either, sometimes they have to because they got in trouble and lost their license. Also, those that are more narcissistic often feel it's beneath them and don't care to open up and share. They are more apt to walk away deciding those in the rooms are a bunch of losers. It is this type that tends to be angry drunks too. These are the die hard deniers that tend to practice shaming.
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Default Feb 09, 2021 at 10:39 AM
  #71
I think that my childhood prepared me to expect certain things and learn how to go it alone at times and make the best of it. All those years of witnessing how badly my older brother was treated and shunned and also being shunned because I was his sister prepared me for how other people can be. What I learned is how that doesn't really change. Truth is people can be cruel. My brother's biggest problem other than his older sister hating him was that he had ADHD and could not sit still and pay attention normally. They did not know anything about that when we were children.

So, I was not a stranger for being shunned and loving or caring about and supporting someone anyway. My husband worked two jobs and went to meetings and working on staying sober. I created my own small business out of my little farm so I could he around for my daughter to help her with her learning disabilities. It was not easy for my daughter either as there were piers that shunned her for having "special needs". Ironically, my daughter's IQ was extremely high for her age.

I honestly was not sure about starting this thread. I don't want to disrespect those who struggle and take steps to get sober, I know that's a genuine challenge. Yet, at the same time this problem has affected me my entire life. Either way it's hard to talk about. And I have gotten used to doing it a lot on my own.
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Default Feb 20, 2021 at 08:19 AM
  #72
Another article about relationships and alcohol :

‘Malcolm & Marie’ and the role of addiction in relationships

Quote:
When he finally stood with a minute to spare, my temper erupted — succumbing to my impulses, I resorted to anger in order to escape my feelings and we rang in the new year with a fight.
This statement got me really thinking. Anger! to escape one's feelings?

I think it's important to explore WHAT personally leads a person to feel anger.

Usually it's about fear.

Did you ever sit and think about what makes you angry? What is it that you fear?

Last edited by Open Eyes; Feb 20, 2021 at 09:05 AM..
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Default Mar 07, 2021 at 01:00 PM
  #73
How alcoholics constantly blame others when things don't go THEIR WAY. Often they will insist the problem in the relationship is the other person and it's the other person who has to change. This tends to happen in other relationships as well, including working with others and blaming problems on others. I talked to someone about two weeks ago that was in a bad mood, thought they were mad at me or something. Turns out it was because their boss is an alcoholic and can be very hard to deal with for just this reason. I remember when my husband drank he was like that and my father as well. That type of behavior can trigger me. I also think that has contributed to how my sister behaves, not sure if she still drinks or is what is called a dry drunk.

Why Do Alcoholics Blame Others? | The Recovery Village Drug and Alcohol Rehab
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Default Mar 08, 2021 at 08:44 AM
  #74
Understanding that even though you want to help and please the alcoholic, you are not going to be heard.

How Do Alcoholics Manipulate Others
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Default Mar 08, 2021 at 10:00 AM
  #75
Came across this article and it does a good job explaining behaviors of someone who has developed alcohol abuse issues. It does a good job at describing how an alcoholic thinks.

Alcoholic Thinking - Understanding the Insanity of Alcoholism: How the Alcoholic Thinks

The other thing I read this morning is when it comes to an alcoholic, they don't actually "love" normally either. Instead it's the high they feel that is important to them. They protect that high just as they do with the high they get from the alcohol or other drugs.

There are so many behaviors that are so similar to that of a narcissist. And there are times where a person is both an alcoholic and a narcissist.

Last edited by Open Eyes; Mar 08, 2021 at 10:16 AM..
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Default Mar 15, 2021 at 08:36 AM
  #76
This is a good article to consider if the reader has developed a problem with alcohol. I just want to caution that it's not a good idea to just stop drinking if a person is very physically addicted to alcohol and has to drink daily to avoid feeling sick etc. In that case it's safer to have help while the body is going through severe physical withdrawls.

What to do if you'''re worried about drinking too much alcohol — Quartz
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Default Mar 15, 2021 at 08:43 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Open Eyes View Post
Came across this article and it does a good job explaining behaviors of someone who has developed alcohol abuse issues. It does a good job at describing how an alcoholic thinks.


Alcoholic Thinking - Understanding the Insanity of Alcoholism: How the Alcoholic Thinks


The other thing I read this morning is when it comes to an alcoholic, they don't actually "love" normally either. Instead it's the high they feel that is important to them. They protect that high just as they do with the high they get from the alcohol or other drugs.


There are so many behaviors that are so similar to that of a narcissist. And there are times where a person is both an alcoholic and a narcissist.
This article really validated my experience with my friend/ex-employee who was an alcoholic (and who I think is still sort of a dry drunk - while she no longer drinks she takes part in these behaviors).

The thing about using "probably" or "maybe" rang true as did the entitlement.

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Default May 25, 2023 at 02:58 PM
  #78
I thought I would bring this thread back as I have noticed a few members struggling with a spouse or family member that consumes a lot of alcohol.

What people don’t realize about using alcohol is that consuming alcohol actually produces cortisol and cortisol is what causes anxiety. So in effect, a person often drinks to reduce anxiety not realizing that as the alcohol wears off the with drawl creates anxiety and even depression.

Also people who turn to marijuana don’t realize that the THC in marijuana can not only contribute to anxiety but also bouts of paranoia. It’s not THE magic fix and both of these drugs can cause more problems with age. The body gets more sensitive with age and decline in hormone levels that begin declining in late 40’s.

NEVER mix psych meds with alcohol, especially antipsychotics as antipsychotics get processed though the liver as does alcohol and people are really risking liver failure.

Last edited by Open Eyes; May 25, 2023 at 03:31 PM..
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Default May 25, 2023 at 03:02 PM
  #79
There are good links throughout this thread to read for those members who are struggling to understand the often very narcissistic mindset of an alcoholic/addict.
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Default May 25, 2023 at 03:39 PM
  #80
I just want to add that if you are interacting with a friend, family member, partner don’t beat yourself up if problems happen.

When a person develops a problem they have mood shifts and can go from being fun and pleasant to acting out. Remember the world revolves around them when they are high so they are often not present for you the way you deserve. Not your fault.
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My Support Forums is the online community that was originally begun as the Psych Central Forums in 2001. It now runs as an independent self-help support group community for mental health, personality, and psychological issues and is overseen by a group of dedicated, caring volunteers from around the world.

 

Helplines and Lifelines

The material on this site is for informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis or treatment provided by a qualified health care provider.

Always consult your doctor or mental health professional before trying anything you read here.