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*Beth*
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Default Jan 15, 2021 at 03:41 PM
  #21
I have a dear friend with whom I've been friends for 52 years. That said, I have to set boundaries with her. She's extremely needy. I have repeatedly suggested that she seek therapy - and an antidepressant. She's always "trying" to do both, but "never can find the time." Although she knows I go to bed early (about 9 p.m.) she repeatedly calls me around 8 - 9 at night. Uh-uh. I do not answer, and I will not answer. Never. Period. I don't make excuses. I just plain do not pick up the phone after a certain time. To call you, Rose, at 10-something at night? You have got to be kidding!!! Just no.

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Default Jan 15, 2021 at 04:14 PM
  #22
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You could also put phone on airplane mode when you don't want to be bothered so it won't ring. I know not everyone can in case of emergencies, but that's what I do at about 10 PM. I just keep the Wifi connected and only have sound notifications for WhatsApp where close friends and my immediate family can contact me if there were something urgent.

As far as going over to a neighbor's, I haven't been to anyone's house since COVID started. I've had to talk to neighbors about a few things, and we always do that outside. My husband and I are being careful, but the country where I live has been through the wringer with the virus since last March. Not as bad as the US, but we seem to be heading into a second wave and possible new lockdown. You just never know how careful others are being.
Thanks for explaining about airplane mode. I didn't know that. I'm not techy at all.

Another wrinkle is that I also have a landline with no caller-ID attached to it. My friend tries one phone and then the other. But I often ignore my house phone because mostly, when it rings, it's just robo calls.

I am deciding to be less casual about COVID precautions. I can't let others impose risk on me. I am telling people that I plan to socially distance more, and I need to stick to my guns on that. Going into my neighbor's apartment is an unnecessary risk. Both my friend and my neighbor take more risks than I do. During the holiday season, I didn't want to be too isolated. Now I'm finding out that I am okay on my own and not really feeling lonely. I've always liked more solitude than most people I know. That's kind of working for me during these times.
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Default Jan 15, 2021 at 04:33 PM
  #23
Some people are just very needy. Being so needy makes them self absorbed. They just can’t help it but make everything about themselves. They might not even realize that they do it. They might lack awareness. Reciprocal relationships are nearly impossible with people like this. They lack give and take reciprocity. Having said that, it doesn’t mean they can’t learn boundaries or that relationship cannot sustain itself in some limited fashion.

Situations like daily calls or late calls could be remedied by not answering the phone. It’s a common courtesy to not call late so she knows it’s not appropriate. If you don’t answer, she’ll stop calling late because it will serve no purpose. As about neighbor, surely pandemics is a valid reason to keep the distance
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Default Jan 15, 2021 at 04:46 PM
  #24
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No reason to ever feel guilty when you are doing self-care. You are entitled to your space & your time whether they like it or not.

I have a friend I have kinda distanced from with all the care for my animals that is needed now. She constantly needed outside validation that others weren't mad at her when we weren't the one calling her. Not my job to take care of those needs. I haven't had time to call for a few months because when I am done taking care of my fur baby family including my horse I am exhausted & really don't feel like talking on the phone. Absolutely NO guilty feeling cause I am doing what I need to to to take care of me first so I can function in my own life. We have to do what we have to do for our own well being & that has to be our priority. Just like oxygen on the plane. If we don't use it first we are no good to be there for anyone else needing us
I had a friend who was a validation-hound, and it got wearying. She moved out of state, but would call me everytime she experienced friction at her job. Then call after call would be the same story re-cycled over and over. After hearing her and reassuring her, I would start talking about my life. That's when she would say, "Well, I guess I need to get going." Finally I flat out told her that I was tired of being cut short. She denied that she ever did that. Some people have such a defense system that there is no getting past it. They are immune to gaining new insight. She was like that. She had been in therapy, but stopped because of the cost. I felt like she was treating our phone chats like therapy sessions. She had been reared by an abusive mother. Self-disclosure can be interesting. I don't mind a friend revealing childhood trauma. However, we grow up, leave home and make our own lives. What was was. If a person gets stuck in the past, that's an issue to address with professional help. Peer support from others with similar issues can also be helpful. But I've learned that being attentive to a broken record just reinforces someone living in the past.

Another friend I saw a lot during the summer kept telling me about her abusive mother. Finally I told her that, since her mother had died a very long time ago, it was time she buried Mom. For months now I haven't heard from her. I can't say I miss her.
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Default Jan 15, 2021 at 04:59 PM
  #25
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I have a dear friend with whom I've been friends for 52 years. That said, I have to set boundaries with her. She's extremely needy. I have repeatedly suggested that she seek therapy - and an antidepressant. She's always "trying" to do both, but "never can find the time." Although she knows I go to bed early (about 9 p.m.) she repeatedly calls me around 8 - 9 at night. Uh-uh. I do not answer, and I will not answer. Never. Period. I don't make excuses. I just plain do not pick up the phone after a certain time. To call you, Rose, at 10-something at night? You have got to be kidding!!! Just no.
Thanks, Beth. The time before going to bed is when you want to wind down and not have to cater to neediness. I tell everyone that I'm a night-owl, which may be part of the problem. She may have taken that to mean I'm available late in the eve. I have given her mixed signals. Now I see you can't do that with everyone. I'ld hesitate to telephone anyone after 8:30 p.m. 10:15 p.m. is not in any gray zone. It clearly is later than socially appropriate.
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Default Jan 15, 2021 at 05:01 PM
  #26
Yes....I we are the ones that have to learn to know how to limit our involvement

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Default Jan 15, 2021 at 08:38 PM
  #27
My grandma used to say all problems come when people don’t have balance and boundaries. Nothing wrong with complaining and venting and calling friends and talking about job and family. All of that is great. Good and bad. Listening and helping friends in need is a big part of friendship. That’s what friends are for! Issues start when it’s excessive, inappropriate amount, excessive length and wrong timing and recycling the same story on and on, then it’s not balanced and people’s boundaries aren’t respected. And people can only take this one sided neediness that much. It becomes enabling people to stay stuck instead of helping. That’s when therapy should come in to place.

Well I hope your friend curbs her calling pattern but remain a friend. She could learn appropriate boundaries and stay in your life
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Default Jan 15, 2021 at 09:07 PM
  #28
divine - sounds like you had a wise grandma.
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Default Jan 15, 2021 at 09:37 PM
  #29
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divine - sounds like you had a wise grandma.
Awe thank you. She had ton of wisdom. Lived amazing life had a lot of wisdom to teach to people. We all quote her a lot
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Default Jan 15, 2021 at 10:06 PM
  #30
So she called me today wanting to drop off some take-out pizza. I declined. Told her I've got lots of food to use up. Then she stays on the phone for 33 minutes talking about nothing. (Some soup she ate yesterday gave her a belly ache.) In between these fascinating revelations, she pauses like she's trying to think of where to go next. I can hear the wheels spinning in her head - like she's thinking "What else can I try?"

I offered some small talk. Then I got quiet. Eventually, she had to give up. Instead of saying that I had to go, I just quieted up and left it in her lap to figure out how to prolong the contact. When I wouldn't keep volleying words with her, it got too obvious that she was just keeping me on the phone for nothing. So she gave up.

I should not have yielded 33 min of my day to this nonsense. This person is kind of into head games. That's what this is starting to feel like. She is very competitive and likes to provoke people. I used to think it was just her sense of humor - that she liked to tease people. But some of the zingers she tosses out are not cute, but intended to be very invalidating. I've learned not to take the bait because she gets a kick out of upsetting people.

Two months ago, she said that I sounded so uninterested in talking to her when she called. At that time, I was unwell, and she was waking me out of being sound asleep. I had been being very nice when she called, but she was catching me at very inopportune moments. I reassurred her she was very welcome to call. Now I see that as the start of the game. That was a test to see how defensive I would or wouldn't get. She gets obsessive. Years ago she got a crush on a guy-friend of hers. She went on to stalk the heck out of that guy. She had him jumping through hoops responding to her need for this and that. Eventually, he abruptly cut off all contact with her.

I don't want to be unkind to someone who may be genuinely very lonely. But I'm starting to grasp why even her close relatives pretty much have nothing to do with her.

I invited her to have dinner with me on Thanksgiving, which I cooked. It was nice. Then I invited her for dinner on Christmas eve. I had a nice meal planned. That day, when I called to encourage her to stop by, she said she felt sick. (She has this longstanding habit of not wanting to accept Christmas invitations.) So I told her that was okay. A few hours later she called wanting to come by. I told her I was concerned she might have COVID and that she should stay home. I only said that because I was sick of her accepting, cancelling, then uncancelling holiday plans - which she's done before. I don't like being jerked around. I feel that, if you back out of a planned get-together, then stay backed out. Especially when it becomes a pattern.

Another day, when she knew I was in the midst of a big cleaning job, she called to say she was having an anxiety attack and wanted to come sit in my apartment, but wouldn't bother me. It sounded like a stunt, but I will go a long way to humor a friend. Over she came. I sat and talked with her. Next I was serving her tea. More talk. Next I was making dinner for the both of us. Eventually, she departed, saying she regretted interrupting my cleaning project. It felt like it had been a test.

Anyway, she is taking up way too much space in my head. I have much I need to attend to.
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Default Jan 15, 2021 at 10:43 PM
  #31
I am sorry, I laughed, she called to tell you what soup she ate yesterday. It gave her belly ache. Sorry it’s kind of funny. She needs to get a life. I get that people are lonely. But she needs a project. I don’t know how old she is but my 83 year old father keeps busy.

She needs to find something to keep busy. Could be something mentally engaging, doesn’t need to be busy like running around. Read a book.

Of course my dad gets lonely but even he in his old age doesn’t just talk about soup he ate. Hahah Although today he and I talked about grapes at length lol my dad is trying to eat a bit more different fruits so my husband keeps buying him different weird grapes like candy snaps and carnival and champagne ones, dad seems to be liking those now. But that’s my dad! And it’s not all he talks about! He is busy with more meaningful things!

I wonder if this lady is this way with other people too? I have a lady at work who is in abusive marriage. She isn’t shy talking about it. She then stopped telling other people about it because they expressed irritation listening to it. I became the only person who’d listen because I felt bad and worried about her but it became so overwhelming. Like I don’t have time at work listening about her marriage. I don’t have time to use the bathroom or eat! She’s been talking about same thing for 10 years if not more!
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Default Jan 16, 2021 at 12:32 AM
  #32
That's quite some array of fancy grapes they got in your neck of the woods. I like the Cotton Candy flavored ones the Sam's sells in summer. Never heard of those others. See - I'm not above shooting the breeze about trivia. Sometimes it's refreshing to chat about what is truly unimportant. We all need an occasional break from considering how not to end up on a ventilator.

She only recently got a smart phone. (That's a whole other story.) I've encouraged her to learn the joys of texting. I text her now and then, but she never texts back. She'ld rather call.

Her problem is she misses her job that she got let go from. She was there for years in the accounting dept. She insisted on picking fights with people over what she considered inappropriate expenditures. She may have been correct, but she kept challenging someone who had more power than her. That person arranged her dismissal. She kept provoking this supervisor by challenging her use of money. She loved playing a game of gotcha. She discovered that her supervisor charged a Sonic hamburger to a business expense account. She made an issue of it, saying the supervisor had no authorization to use that business charge card for buying lunch. Her supervisor had the last laugh. That's why I say she gets into foolish rivalries to see who will have the last word. It all seems to be a game with her.

She believes in a lot of stuff I consider superstition. Last week she called me to say that some astrologer friend told her that a lot of current lawless behavior was being caused by the position of the planets. She knows I have zero interest in astrology. Years ago I used to argue with her about stuff like that. Then I suspected she was partly pulling my leg. So now I don't get lurred into debating anything with her. I just say her astrologer friend might be onto something.

She has been a decent friend to me from time to time. I don't want to lose site of that. Ideally, I want to keep alive the bond between us, without feeling several times a week that I'm kinda being played. Maybe I need to take more initiative in giving her some quality time and attention on my terms, so she may feel less need to seek reassurance that I'm here for her.
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Default Jan 16, 2021 at 08:47 AM
  #33
She sounds entertaining. Is she also into conspiracies and extreme political views? Although it sounds like she might be the kind of person to say things to just get people going so she could argue and get her juices flowing and negative emotions released. Especially knowing that she liked to fight at work.

Actually it’s a good idea for you to initiate contact and give her attention on your terms. It might satisfy her need for attention and lessen her desire to excessively bug you at wrong times.

PS Interesting how she doesn’t text. My future son’s in law grandpa is 93 and he texts and does family zooms so does his brother who is 95. Hilarious. Too cute. But then we are a group of four girlfriends and one in our group just doesn’t text unless to confirm a meeting time. Some people just not into technology. She isn’t even backwards or old fashioned, she is professionally employed and sure is very tech savvy. Just not her thing. It also depends on a life style. I commute a lot so it’s a perfect time for calling people, can’t exactly text driving. And when I get home I have zero desire for small talk

Yeah let us know if initiating occasional contact with her and give her either meaningful talk or just shoot the breeze on your terms is working. Good idea!
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Default Jan 16, 2021 at 03:00 PM
  #34
One movie I like a lot is a movie called "The Help". I like it because it's not all black and white, but instead addresses a lot of grays that are very important. The truth is anyone, no matter what their color or culture can be marginalized and considered unworthy or some kind of threat in some way. The author of the book this movie was based on is Kathryn Stockett who actually grew up in Jackson Mississippi during the 1960's so she did see many of the aspects she writes about in her book. It's been very well received and became a very popular novel, however, it had been turned down by 60 different publishers before she finally found a publisher that would agree to print. It was so good it ended up being made into a movie and IMHO, they did a good job capturing the feel of the book.

What I liked about it is that it is an example of how not all X's are. One would think it is, however, the author herself is proof that is not the case. A lot of people are self absorbed and their favorite topic is often themselves. That is why Facebook is full of all kinds of people constantly sharing their favorite topic which is themselves. What I appreciate about this author is that not only does she show a lot of different behaviors, but, she also shows the "whys".

What can be desired when it comes to a good story is when an author captures different characters and their behaviors and how SOME characters end up becoming "self aware". This was something that was so touching in the movie/story of "Driving Miss Daisy". The journey that slowly unfolded in this story was in fact the journey of Miss Daisy finally becoming self aware.

The problem with this friend you are discussing is in fact her lack of self awareness. All the things she does that you have shared are revealing her lack of self awareness. However, part of this problem stems from the kind of individuals her parents were and her mother that remains a psychological thorn in her. Self awareness is not the same thing as self absorbed. Actually, when you shared how your friend can say things determining her opinion of others she feels are not respecting how to properly respect expenditures, I am willing to bet that this was instilled in her by her mother. This was something discussed in the movie/book "The Help" too. This was something that one of the women described as even though she cared for children in a loving caring way, they always ended up just like their mothers which is basically "entitled, selfish, and not self aware". That is part of why you mentioned her being a bit narcissistic.

It's very lonely and painful when suffering a significant loss as you have shared Rose. You had a relationship where you learned how to compromise because despite whatever was not perfect about your SO, you knew he did love you and you loved him too. Things you have shared about how you were welcomed after being away from him were very touching when you have experienced how another person can look at you genuinely being glad to see you. It means despite what isn't perfect, there is a genuine heart connect. It may be this woman never really experienced that with someone, so she won't be able to really sit with you in a genuine way. Perhaps she has a bit of bitterness about her that comes out in her behaviors as is often the case. She may never be self aware enough to realize that about herself therefore she will be lacking in her ability to empathize and be the kind of friend you would genuinely value. Those that poke and prod the way you describe of her tend to do so out of personal frustrations they themselves are not aware of. That's when it requires a certain amount of acceptance with the understanding that it's not so much a personal invasion on you but instead part of how she is as a person that will most likely always lack the ability to connect in a more personal way with others regardless of how educated she is. This is something that was addressed in the movie Driving Miss Daisy. The casting of Jessica Tandy and Morgan Freeman was excellent as both these individuals captured exactly what this story is trying to portray.

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Default Jan 16, 2021 at 07:11 PM
  #35
O.E., when I met this friend over 15 years ago, her parents were both passed away for a long time. So I never observed their family dynamics. She speaks very tenderly about her mother who sounds as though she were a dear and gentle person. I'm sure how anyone turns out is affected by who their parents were. I have no idea how much of my friend's personality is similar to that if her mother's. From what she's told me - not much. She seems to be the opposite of her mom.

"The Help" was a good movie, IMO. It's a while since I've viewed it. But I don't see how the themes of that movie serve to illuminate my issue with this friend.

So "not all Xs are" . . . what? Are you saying not all blacks are the same? Not all whites are the same? Not all maids are the same? I'm afraid I lost you there.

My friend knows she rubs people the wrong way. She says she can see why this supervisor got her terminated. Her problem is she just can't resist the temptation to lord it over others at work.

She was in a longterm relationship with someone she got very close to.
My suspicion is that she wanted the benefits of having an S.O. but not the responsibilities. She seemed to think I was kind of foolish to spend years caregiving.

Even, after years of knowing her, I have no idea how she got to be the way she is. I suspect she was a bit spoiled. I don't know how people being marginalized in 1960s Mississippi relates to my friend. You lost me there.

My friend is inclined to be entitled and selfish. She tends to be a taker. I've seen her use someone else who was very giving toward her. Now and then, though, she does something nice. I think she's very on guard against being taken advantage of. (I don't know why.)

Some things are just a mystery. I think it's foolish to overexplain things that we don't really understand. I'm focused more on how to deal with her behavior than with how to figure out what formed her character. Sometimes we just don't have enough information to figure somethings out.
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Default Jan 17, 2021 at 10:37 AM
  #36
It must be another friend you talked about that complains about her mother alot even though her mother has been gone 10 years that I was thinking about. It could very well be that this friend who had a sweet mother was spoiled and had a lot done "for" her. So, she grew to expect that from others in relationships. When you shared about her visiting you and you making her tea and then ended up making her dinner, that's probably something she feels is ok because it's what her mother did for her. That is most likely why she felt that what you did for your SO was too much and remarked how it's nothing she would ever choose to do. Truth is, people tend to be what they know.

That is why I brought up those movies too. It was more about human nature then what happened in the 60's. Truth is it could be at any time because it's something human beings tend to practice. It's very much today as it was then. It is not just black and white, instead it's white and white and black and black and yellow and yellow etc. Truth is, one could change the color of all these individuals and still show the very same behaviors.

So what does that have to do with you and this aquaintance? Perhaps nothing more than to understand how this individual is only going to give you what she knows. This aquaintance is not going to be self aware enough to truly understand her short comings and how that affects others. Also, that this individual won't truly cry for you, but will most likely only be able to cry for herself.
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Default Jan 17, 2021 at 12:02 PM
  #37
Yes, OE, I have another friend who liked to talk about how her mother was cold and very strict. Her mother sounded like someone who was mean. The mother was long gone, and I ended up telling my friend that it was high time she buried her mother. This was the friend who is always preaching religion. We had worked together on a home care case. The reason I liked her was because she was one of the best, most hard-working caregivers I'ld ever worked with. She was extraordinarily kind and loving toward our patient. I believed she was that way toward any patient she worked with. She really was one of the most good-hearted people I've ever met. Based on how she described her childhood, she seemed to be the opposite of her own mother. I'ld love to know what influenced her to be such a caring person, but I haven't yet figured it out. Some people grow up to be replicas of their parents. Some turn out to be the opposite. Others follow a path in between.

I'm fascinated to try and understand what has influenced the formation of a person's character. Sometimes an explanation eludes me. O.E. you tend to define people by what psych diagnosis they've been given, or by which one you think they might qualify for. Human personality is more intricate than that. I find you greatly oversimplify things by trying to plug in some pat explanation. You're in too big of a hurry to say, "Oh, I know, I know." when you don't really know.

My friend who I describe in this thread actually has a good deal of self-awareness. That's one of the things I like about her. Shortly aftet we first met, she told me that her career had gone off the rails, and she explained that a lot of people at her jobs had come to really dislike her. She told me she tended to lord it over her subordinates and was considered smug and stuck up. She tells me now that she used to consider a lot of people beneath her. She even says now, "No wonder I got fired." That's a fair amont of self-awareness.

You can't pick one theory of personality and just apply it across the board to everyone. The thing I notice about this person is that she can be very thick skinned and hard-butted. Yet she's always on the lookout for sensitive, giving souls who she can recruit into doing things for her. She likes to exploit people. Right now she seems unsure of what to make of me. I've been very giving toward her on many occasions, but I'm capable of saying "No" and turning away from her. She seems perplexed by that and keeps doing these little tests, like she's trying to figure out how available I am to respond to her needs. From how she has described her workplace relations, it sounds like she is manipulative and likes to play games of seeing who will come out on top. She loves coming out in top. I don't say that her phonecalls to me are about that currently. Instead, I think she's lonely because she's alienated a lot of people.

Some people are takers. She kind of is.
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Default Jan 17, 2021 at 01:00 PM
  #38
That is always an interesting topic why and how people are who they are. Sometimes there is an explanation and sometimes there is none or no one knows enough and it’s unwise to assume. I’ve met quite a great number of people who made a conscious choice to be nothing like their parents (for a good reason) and I’ve met people whose parents are an inspiration for them and then there are people who simply aren’t aware and just live their life in oblivion. The whole nature v nurture just too complex of a topic to ever have a clear cut answer. It’s not all simple cut and dry

One of my nephews is adopted, family adoption on my sisters in law side. He was adopted quite late in the beginning of his teen years, my bro and sis in law were guardians for awhile. He is an adult now and is so great in every sense of the word, he made conscious choice to be nothing like his biological parents and when he has kids, he’d raise them well. Me and my brother wonder sometimes if he’d turned out this awesome if they didn’t take him in? We suspect he maybe would do well regardless, just because who he is. But maybe not. It’s scary to think how he’d turn out if he didn’t come live with my brothers family. Who is to know. Nature v nurture. No clear cut answer

Yes some people are just takers. I’ve met people who were takers and were aware that they are, but just kept on being takers (amazing isn’t it). And I’ve met people who weren’t even aware that it’s wrong and thought others owed them. Entitled. It’s a lonely life at the end as it turns people off.

It is kind of you to be her friend despite her shortcomings (but good for you to set boundaries and say no)
divine1966 is offline  
 
Thanks for this!
Rose76
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