Describing others as toxic people

Open Eyes · May 06, 2021 at 07:40 PM

It became one of those buzz words and often is used in the media and in the political world and even articles actually titled “toxic people”.

Just Google “what is a toxic person” and there are plenty of articles you can read.

AzulOscuro · May 06, 2021 at 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

It became one of those buzz words and often is used in the media and in the political world and even articles actually titled “toxic people”.

Just Google “what is a toxic person” and there are plenty of articles you can read.

I see.
I have the luck that people around me, noone is what is called “toxic”. I won the lottery so.

AzulOscuro · May 06, 2021 at 08:42 PM

I can’t avoid to think that the term -toxic- has to do with a hedonistic society. Where the individual only cares about himself.

eskielover · May 06, 2021 at 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

@AzulOscuro I respect your effort to try very hard to interact in English when it’s not the language you normally speak. I think you try very hard and tbh I don’t think I would do all that well if I was trying to interact in your language.

We can’t just expect other people to navigate the way we need. People are all different and develop their own ways of navigating.

I struggle with ptsd and it can be extremely hard to manage. I have had to reach out for help and therapy and have had to do a lot of reading in an effort to understand it. I have shared and ongoing challenge with my older sister and I will say therapists have used the term toxic and disordered and narcissistic to describe the behaviors that have actually traumatized me. So I have probably used the word toxic myself from time to time. I had never used those labels before. I think that my therapist gave me those labels to help me see that her behaviors were bad because he noticed I was being treated badly and he wanted me see that instead of trying to empathize so much.

Now I can look back and realize that many of her behaviors were due to how she was actually stealing and did not want me to find out.

I have noticed how people do use the label toxic too much. And people also use the label narcissistic a lot too. More than one therapist used that term a lot as well. A lot of people have labeled her Evil and a witch and some words that won’t come up in print. Entitled is another word used a lot.

I do think it is important to pay attention to one’s own behaviors that may contribute to our challenges. People are complex and all our lives we will come across behaviors in others that can be a challenge to navigate around. It’s called learning to be self aware and seeing our own part when having challenges with others. Not everything that challenges us is external.

That’s what I noticed about my sister. She blames too much of her own issues on others. When someone is like that it’s often a waste of time to convince them otherwise. Therapists have told me that as well.

The section I made bold says a lot. I think a lot of the terminology has come from the use by our therapists to help us understand what we had been dealing with that has caused us problems. Then instead of just applying it to our situation for understanding, we tend to start labeling others that seem to be similar to what we dealt with that caused us problems, then we start labeling situations the same way.

OK, I am guilty of using the term "dysfunctional" way too much because it actually described my parents & also my now EX husband. My T helped me understand that they were dysfunctional & that the way I reacted to them was because their behaviors were NOT normal & that my reaction was actually an appropriate response to behavior like that. So then I tended to start saying that anyone who behaved in a similar way was IMO, dysfunctional & in reality that is just the same as the overuse of the term "toxic".

Another term that I remember learning in therapy is about "validation". Good to know when we need validation from others or self-validation is better. It is important to know that what we are thinking is along the right path but even that is a term that can be overused.

Having had 2 years of intense DBT therapy, it was good for me to learn terms that could describe what I had experienced & was experiencing to help me learn how to express my thoughts & feelings. But when we take it past that & start applying it to everyone else & every other situation we come across, I think that is where the problem comes in.

I honestly NEVER heart the term "toxic" ever used in the 2 years of DBT or with any of my good T's I have had since moving here. Probably why I never apply that term to any of the situations I find myself in because they seem to me to be more dysfunctional than toxic which is based on our own personal experiences how we see our situations.

Open Eyes · May 06, 2021 at 09:41 PM

A word my therapists used a lot was “disordered”. Yet there was a period that “narcissistic” was used too. I think many are reconsidering using that term because it sounds too much like a diagnosis and that can cause problems in it can be repeated when it’s not meant as an actual diagnosis but instead a behavior.

Actually I never used these words until I began working with therapists. Yet I also noticed tons of articles describing narcissistic behaviors. That being said there are popular long running series that describe certain behaviors that criminals exhibit.

Bottom line is we all have to learn how to navigate around people that have varying behaviors. We cannot expect everyone to navigate around our needs and if they don’t deem them toxic and go on a rage rant.

AzulOscuro · May 06, 2021 at 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TunedOut

Thanks for this thread AzulOscuro. I just looked at it. Like you, I agree with the comments. I agree that we have to be careful to label behaviors rather than people.

I want to add that I have struggled for a long time about whether or not others were toxic or I am the one who is toxic. In the beginning of my back and forth thoughts, a lot of it was about others but I finally began to look at ways I was behaving badly too. I think I have improved my behaviors and improved my boundaries and have noticed that now others are behaving and doing better. I don't know if I can take any credit for their improvements but do know that we eventually take on some of the behaviors of the people we are with if we spend a lot of time with them. However, we can't change others, we can only change ourselves. Most people have both good and bad behaviors. I know I struggle with not having sympathy for others excuses when they also clearly did something wrong. I have learned that when a person blames, excuses their own bad behavior and guilt trips me or others--it is time call them out on the specific recent behavior they are trying to deflect from or to have a time out from that person. Also, if I allow them to deflect an issue by blaming another person, then I am also contributing to allowing others to be blamed for their inappropriate behavior. I should say something like, "that is not the issue" or "have you talked to them?" And even if they have a valid point about someone else, many times I have been put in situations where others are asking me to change others in a way I do not have the power to do. I am learning to not feel as responsible for things I cannot change. For me, it has been very challenging to be in "fights" between three or more. When it is just between two people, things are so much easier to work out. It is important not to pile on to anyone. Perhaps some of their accusations bear consideration but there are some situations that I shouldn't get in the middle of. Dare I say these are "toxic" situations?

I am trying to monitor myself also so that I do not behave badly either.

Thanks to you for your contribution.

I see as so amazing the fact that you have the guts to look at yourself, in case you have something to fix.
It worths of a lot of credit. Me too. I’m trying to learn. I have so much to learn. There was a time, just before going to my first psychologist that I used to blame everybody for my issues. I was so lost.

Then, I went through a phase when I considered myself the worst person in the world. You know....I thought I was one if those called “toxic person”.

Now, as you, I got some kind of balance.

TishaBuv · May 08, 2021 at 06:30 AM

Yes, I remember one of the first psychology buzz words that became popular was ‘dysfunctional’. Did it mean people who don’t function? Families that don’t function like a family should? What does it even mean?

My mom calls it psychobabble and people who are looking at themselves and others behaviors are (sorry guys) “looking up their own azzes!”

Have Hope · 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TishaBuv

Yes, I remember one of the first psychology buzz words that became popular was ‘dysfunctional’. Did it mean people who don’t function? Families that don’t function like a family should? What does it even mean?

My mom calls it psychobabble and people who are looking at themselves and others behaviors are (sorry guys) “looking up their own azzes!”

Yeah, it's interesting how many call what psychologists do, say and study as "psychobabble".

Psychologists are experts in human behavior. The DSM exists for a reason, and psychologists have the professional education to back up their theories, diagnoses and terminology.

Not saying this is YOUR mother, but I find that people who call it psychobabble are really just unaware and ignorant of the field of psychology and how theories are formed and based. They're based on scientific studies of human and animal behavior.

So the term "toxic" itself is widely used within the field of psychology, and so is the term, dysfunctional. "Dysfunctional" is used to describe the breaking down of expected and normal human behavior, human systems, governments, work environments, family dynamics, relationships, etc, also used within the field of psychology.

eskielover · 11:42 PM

However when someone feels trapped in a toxic situation, I know I for one have responded in a toxic way myself which only adds fuel to the fire. Two toxic's don't make it cancel each other out, it just makes a toxic situation more toxic.

Like with anything toxic, removing ones self totally is actually the ONLY good solution. Also working on ones OWN awareness & responses to situations can help to not get into situations like that in the future. I know it has worked in my situation but I also know that the way I reacted made the bad(toxic) situation worse. I have now learned to respond differently to people like that & keep them at a distance & it has made a huge difference in MY life & I don't have that horrible feeling that I was just as toxic in my own way in relationship as the person I disliked for being toxic. I also know many who would not have found what was "toxic" to me, "toxic" to them[/SIZE][/FONT]

Have Hope · May 08, 2021 at 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eskielover

However when someone feels trapped in a toxic situation, I know I for one have responded in a toxic way myself which only adds fuel to the fire. Two toxic's don't make it cancel each other out, it just makes a toxic situation more toxic.

Like with anything toxic, removing ones self totally is actually the ONLY good solution. Also working on ones OWN awareness & responses to situations can help to not get into situations like that in the future. I know it has worked in my situation but I also know that the way I reacted made the bad(toxic) situation worse. I have now learned to respond differently to people like that & keep them at a distance & it has made a huge difference in MY life & I don't have that horrible feeling that I was just as toxic in my own way in relationship as the person I disliked for being toxic. I also know many who would not have found what was "toxic" to me, "toxic" to them

But that's exactly what happens when you engage or interact with someone who is toxic - the toxic person causes a natural reaction of anger, rage, resentment by their poor treatment and behaviors. It is only natural to react to it and sometimes in a way that meets them at their level.

After noticing the dance that then becomes even more toxic, since the toxic person doesn't know any better, the one who is on the receiving end then has to make an adjustment in how they choose to interact with that person. The only option is to remove oneself from that person and to no longer engage.

seesaw · May 08, 2021 at 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eskielover

The section I made bold says a lot. I think a lot of the terminology has come from the use by our therapists to help us understand what we had been dealing with that has caused us problems. Then instead of just applying it to our situation for understanding, we tend to start labeling others that seem to be similar to what we dealt with that caused us problems, then we start labeling situations the same way.

OK, I am guilty of using the term "dysfunctional" way too much because it actually described my parents & also my now EX husband. My T helped me understand that they were dysfunctional & that the way I reacted to them was because their behaviors were NOT normal & that my reaction was actually an appropriate response to behavior like that. So then I tended to start saying that anyone who behaved in a similar way was IMO, dysfunctional & in reality that is just the same as the overuse of the term "toxic".

Another term that I remember learning in therapy is about "validation". Good to know when we need validation from others or self-validation is better. It is important to know that what we are thinking is along the right path but even that is a term that can be overused.

Having had 2 years of intense DBT therapy, it was good for me to learn terms that could describe what I had experienced & was experiencing to help me learn how to express my thoughts & feelings. But when we take it past that & start applying it to everyone else & every other situation we come across, I think that is where the problem comes in.

I honestly NEVER heart the term "toxic" ever used in the 2 years of DBT or with any of my good T's I have had since moving here. Probably why I never apply that term to any of the situations I find myself in because they seem to me to be more dysfunctional than toxic which is based on our own personal experiences how we see our situations.

Well the reason you didn't hear the word 'toxic' in therapy is because it's nowhere in the DSM 5. It's a buzz word, and a lot of people have written about how it's used as a label to "other" the person being labeled and allow people to create a victim mentality for themselves.

I find it predominantly used by people who want to avoid responsibility for their own behavior and blame it on others. Typically people with poor conflict resolution skills.

It never helps to label others in our healing because you can't do anything about other people or their diagnoses, nor can we diagnose other people. As you suggested, Eskie, we have to address our own behavior and make our own choices about dealing with people we don't like. These are our choices that we need to take responsibility for and not blame on others by labeling them. Why do we have to label a person toxic and make it about them instead of simply taking responsibility for how we feel and saying we don't like them? Same with jobs and other situations that get labeled toxic.

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Open Eyes · May 08, 2021 at 09:53 AM

I agree with both eskie and seesaw in that it’s important learn how to interact with others that may not have the social skills preferred. The idea of needing to win can result in further participating in engaging with another person that is unhealthy.

I know for myself that it’s pointless to engage with someone that has to feel they are the winner with every interaction. That is when one has to learn to develop better ways to deal with conflict where it reduces continuing the futility.

eskielover · May 08, 2021 at 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Have Hope

But that's exactly what happens when you engage or interact with someone who is toxic - the toxic person causes a natural reaction of anger, rage, resentment by their poor treatment and behaviors. It is only natural to react to it and sometimes in a way that meets them at their level.

After noticing the dance that then becomes even more toxic, since the toxic person doesn't know any better, the one who is on the receiving end then has to make an adjustment in how they choose to interact with that person. The only option is to remove oneself from that person and to no longer engage.

Now I am wise enough to see people with those kinds of personalities & never engage with them & now keep them out of my personal life. It is not everyone's natural response. Some know skills to deflect those kinds of people & not engage with them in the first place.....& some don't want to offend so they just quietly deal with it rather than engage at the other person's level & sometimes internalize the whole situation. Neither striking out or internalizing are good coping skills.

Open Eyes · May 08, 2021 at 10:11 AM

Some people will let you know what is expected of you by what they say and the key is Believe them. I have learned when someone says “oh and did I tell you this person is an X” they are telling you they are assuming you are supposed to see this other person in a negative way too. Sometimes the person may not even realize they are interacting with someone who has been nice to them but happens to be this X. This is even worse when doing online engaging. It’s showing no thought or respect of who may be reading or engaging that may be an X of some kind.

TishaBuv · May 08, 2021 at 10:16 AM

There are times we choose to maintain a relationship with a person who is chronically negative and abusive. They would likely be diagnosed with a disorder by a professional, if they would seek help, which they wouldn’t, and don’t even want to hear there is anything amiss with them. But, if they are someone important enough to you that you choose to maintain contact anyway, we need to have compassion for them. They may be ill. While we can protect ourselves so they don’t get to damage us, we can do what we can to be there for them and be kind to them. You wouldn’t abandon someone because they are ill, you can have some compassion. As for people we can leave and not have to deal with anymore, of course, leave when you can if they do nothing good for you and are only harmful.

divine1966 · May 08, 2021 at 10:53 AM

I think in absence of actual diagnosis many things are subjective. A lot of is an opinion.

Some people describe some horrendous unacceptable events in their lives and claim it’s all good and dandy while I am mortified to hear such things and some describe events as toxic while I think it’s just everyday routine that everyone deals with on a daily basis. .

So it all depends. Much of it is a perception. Unless of course it’s an actual diagnosis or something universally unacceptable, which are very few things.

eskielover · May 08, 2021 at 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TishaBuv

There are times we choose to maintain a relationship with a person who is chronically negative and abusive. They would likely be diagnosed with a disorder by a professional, if they would seek help, which they wouldn’t, and don’t even want to hear there is anything amiss with them. But, if they are someone important enough to you that you choose to maintain contact anyway, we need to have compassion for them. They may be ill. While we can protect ourselves so they don’t get to damage us, we can do what we can to be there for them and be kind to them. You wouldn’t abandon someone because they are ill, you can have some compassion. As for people we can leave and not have to deal with anymore, of course, leave when you can if they do nothing good for you and are only harmful.

Yes! Good points

Sometimes we stay until the harm they do is more than we can continue tolerating or we learn better skills to handle the situation we choose to stay in. I know personally if I had stayed in my marriage I probably would not have chosen to survive staying (that would have been my choice) cause even with the skills I have learned I know living in that situation was not something I could tolerate even if I was the most compassionate person in the world. (Someone else may have been able to but not me)

Sadly he has run his life into the ground & is still messing me up financially even after divorce. Never figured that would be possible.

What I have found is that I stay clear of anyone who even on first meeting shows any similarities to what I lived with for too many years. Will be nice but definitely not allow into my own personal space. Probably a protective wall I build so I NEVER end up in that same place again.

We definitely make choices on who we allow to stay in our lives & how we handle the situations we find ourselves in.

eskielover · May 08, 2021 at 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by divine1966

I think in absence of actual diagnosis many things are subjective. A lot of is an opinion.

Some people describe some horrendous unacceptable events in their lives and claim it’s all good and dandy while I am mortified to hear such things and some describe events as toxic while I think it’s just everyday routine that everyone deals with on a daily basis. .

So it all depends. Much of it is a perception. Unless of course it’s an actual diagnosis or something universally unacceptable, which are very few things.

Totally agree.

Also, Perception is relative to our own personal skills of being able to handle certain situations. I know certain situations I find myself in it is just a matter of figuring out what action I need to take while for others it would be totally overwhelming.

Even with a diagnosis or universally unacceptable behavior sometimes the way we react to someone keeps those types away from us because they KNOW they won't get the response they want & go looking for another place they can

Have Hope · May 08, 2021 at 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eskielover

We definitely make choices on who we allow to stay in our lives & how we handle the situations we find ourselves in.

Absolutely 100% agree.

ArtleyWilkins · May 09, 2021 at 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seesaw

Well the reason you didn't hear the word 'toxic' in therapy is because it's nowhere in the DSM 5. It's a buzz word, and a lot of people have written about how it's used as a label to "other" the person being labeled and allow people to create a victim mentality for themselves.

I find it predominantly used by people who want to avoid responsibility for their own behavior and blame it on others. Typically people with poor conflict resolution skills.

It never helps to label others in our healing because you can't do anything about other people or their diagnoses, nor can we diagnose other people. As you suggested, Eskie, we have to address our own behavior and make our own choices about dealing with people we don't like. These are our choices that we need to take responsibility for and not blame on others by labeling them. Why do we have to label a person toxic and make it about them instead of simply taking responsibility for how we feel and saying we don't like them? Same with jobs and other situations that get labeled toxic.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

I’m not sure I agree. Knowing a person is “toxic” to me - basically poison to physical, mental, and/or emotional health - doesn’t make me a victim at all. It empowers me to make wise decisions to distance myself from that person for my own safety. It has absolutely the opposite effect to creating a victim mentality for me; it helps me make wise choices. That ability to make and hold healthy boundaries so that those individuals don’t continue to hold that power over me is perhaps the healthiest skill for living sanely and safely.

I don’t get into labels either, but I don’t see this so much about the label as it is in knowing that sometime there are people or environments that we have to separate from in order to be healthy.

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Open Eyes Legendary Wise Elder Member Since Mar 2011 Location: Northeast USA Posts: 23,111 (SuperPoster!) 13 21.3k hugs given	May 06, 2021 at 07:40 PM #41 It became one of those buzz words and often is used in the media and in the political world and even articles actually titled “toxic people”. Just Google “what is a toxic person” and there are plenty of articles you can read.
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AzulOscuro Grand Magnate Member Since Nov 2014 Location: Spain ( the land of flowers and gladness, lol!) Posts: 3,825 9 1,758 hugs given	May 06, 2021 at 08:42 PM #43 I can’t avoid to think that the term -toxic- has to do with a hedonistic society. Where the individual only cares about himself. __________________ Social Anxiety and Depression. Cluster C traits. Trying to improve my English. My apologies for errors and mistakes in advance. Mankind is complex: Make deserts blossom and lakes die. ( GIL SCOTT-HERSON)
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