advertisement
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Display Modes
Alive99
Veteran Member
Alive99 has no updates.
 
Member Since: Dec 2020
Location: Hungary
Posts: 505
3 yr Member
172 hugs
given
Default Jun 16, 2021 at 02:03 PM
  #41
Quote:
Originally Posted by AzulOscuro View Post
I was talking in a general sense. Only wanted to express you my comprehension in the sense that sometimes even when we know a person a lot, people may show reactions we don’t expect according to what we have known about this person so far.
*Want to make clear that when I talk about a person is in a general sense (I’m including myself in this group).

Hm, with family I don't feel this way, except for my brother maybe. With my mother, my sister I don't feel that I would get stuff from them that I don't expect. Well my sister did pull off a thing once that I didn't expect but she made up for it really quickly. So she didn't really go "out of bounds" on the whole. My brother went more "out of bounds" under that stress thingy (perhaps that was the reason for it), but he was able to go back too to his normal/default.



Quote:
You asked me a question and I’m gonna reply what I do think. The more you know yourself, the most possibilities you have to know and being open to know another person. This is my personal opinion, though.
I like that, that makes a lot of sense. My experience confirms your thoughts here.





Quote:
Originally Posted by AzulOscuro View Post
My psychologist recommend me this book years ago. Indeed, I have just picked it up from my library.
I’m giving it a quick check now to refresh a little. My last note was at page 207 so I guess I quitted it there. If I remember well, l left it because the proposed exercises were more complicated that the single techniques I learnt to practise mindfulness. And I didn’t want to be more focussed on whether I was doing correctly the exercises than the aim of the exercise themselves, when I already have chosen the technique I found that suited better with me.

I'm curious, what techniques were those? If you can quote a little from page 207 I can identify that part in the ebook I got (it does not have page numbers).



Quote:
Said that, this therapy is part and based on the same principles of that so called Third Generation therapies that it’s to first be aware of thoughts and emotions that appears in our minds, accept them, not fighting against them in order not to feed them.
I was reading a CBT book today. It was talking about: your thoughts will make you have feelings and then you will act on those emotions. I think mindfulness/DBT works the same way. And CBT, DBT, all that, they say that you gotta catch the automatic negative thoughts - that are emotional thoughts really - and not identify with them, or with the emotions either.

But I just feel like I'm wired the other way around.

I have feelings (hiding somewhere, god knows where) and then I have thoughts - indirectly - motivated by them and then I act based on the thoughts. I identify with those thoughts, I don't identify with or I don't fully identify with the emotions (I am a 3rd party/observer to them usually, when I do actually see, perceive and feel the emotions).

And it feels like the emotional thoughts run in their own separate thread that's usually blocked out. But ofcourse they are too blocked out anyway since cPTSD, it's not normal for me



Quote:
What happen with this? Which are the benefits? With practise, you learn to give these thoughts and emotions a relative relevance ( as a product of our over-protector brain) so once you get this, you are freer to go ahead with your life without having to carry a heavy burden. Your brain won’t ever be the same again. It will be working little by little as an alley. Not so over-protector. More objective and attentive to what’s really happening around you. It’s immense the plasticity of the brain.
I like the way you explain stuff. I don't think I ever would've understood this before my cPTSD though. I read up on a lot of psychology and related stuff and so I learned to make theories about emotions afterwards to try and make sense out of them.... Then as I got more in touch with the actual feelings, I realised the theories were arbitrary. Lol it was a BIG relief

So anyway...what I liked in your description was you talking about

1) "With practise, you learn to give these thoughts and emotions a relative relevance ( as a product of our over-protector brain) so once you get this, you are freer to go ahead with your life without having to carry a heavy burden." - This is my old self before cPTSD. I want to be back to my old self.
2) "being objective and attentive to what’s really happening around you" - This is again my old self before cPTSD. Yes I so I want to be back to my old self.

And your description gave me a perspective for a short second....I could kinda see what it must be like, when someone is starting from this pov. For me cPTSD made me a bit like it too but it's still not really "me".

I don't know if that made sense.
Alive99 is offline  
 
Hugs from:
Breaking Dawn
 
Thanks for this!
Breaking Dawn

advertisement
Bill3
Legendary
Bill3 has no updates.
 
Member Since: Mar 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 10,923
15 yr Member
24.1k hugs
given
PC PoohBah!
Default Jun 16, 2021 at 02:03 PM
  #42
Sure!

Okay let's say that you hear about an opportunity to go to a large food bank with many other people and help deliver food. You really want to do it, let's say, but you are blocked.

So instead you wonder if there is a very small way that you can involve yourself in food assistance. You then realize that you could bring three small items you already have at home, and can spare, in a bag to a local church that is a one-minute walk away. You see that as a small step toward your larger goal of helping with food assistance.

What would happen? Could you make that small delivery, of value in itself but also, you hope, as a small step towards bigger things?
Bill3 is offline  
 
Hugs from:
Breaking Dawn
 
Thanks for this!
Alive99, Quietmind 2
Alive99
Veteran Member
Alive99 has no updates.
 
Member Since: Dec 2020
Location: Hungary
Posts: 505
3 yr Member
172 hugs
given
Default Jun 16, 2021 at 02:35 PM
  #43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill3 View Post
Sure!

Okay let's say that you hear about an opportunity to go to a large food bank with many other people and help deliver food. You really want to do it, let's say, but you are blocked.

So instead you wonder if there is a very small way that you can involve yourself in food assistance. You then realize that you could bring three small items you already have at home, and can spare, in a bag to a local church that is a one-minute walk away. You see that as a small step toward your larger goal of helping with food assistance.

What would happen? Could you make that small delivery, of value in itself but also, you hope, as a small step towards bigger things?

OK I am going to try and translate this example to my everyday situations. So...I get stuck at,


"So instead you wonder if there is a very small way that you can involve yourself in food assistance. You then realize that you could bring three small items you already have at home, and can spare"

I mean this consists of a few steps:

1. Actually remember that I can try and find a small way (I forget a LOT of the time)
2. Believe that me finding a small way for now will help enough (be patient)
3. Believe that I can actually find a small way
4. Rev my mind up/put it into gear to find options (such as, finding these three small items), thanks to being able to believe these things, or being positive enough, having enough positive energy to rev it up or whatever?

I think I can sometimes do 1-2-3. I've practiced the 2nd step too a lot already.

But 4....Feels like a jump too much. Um, like yeah.... The very small jump I could do, but I can't really figure out what small jump/way to do because it's not natural to have to break things into these extremely small steps. No one does it like that normally. So there is no "instruction manual" on it either.

Or I'm just not sure how to apply this analogy in my everyday life.

But it is interesting that we are talking about this now because I realised this really recently. That I need the revving up to think of options like that to be adaptable again to situations and stuff. Needing to use positive energy for it. Because a lot of negative is hiding somewhere in my brain that gets in the way for that too. Um, yeah, after realising that, I've had a couple of moments where I was able to do it! Do this step 4, I mean. But I don't know how long it's gonna take before I can regularly do it. But I think I at least understand it more now

It's also because I've cleared out some more negative stuff from the bad past with those bad relationships. I've done more processing recently.


It does feel like being back to my old self, too. Being able to think up the options to take action and adapt to situations, life stuff.

***

TLDR: I like your idea, I just have an issue with the execution of it because it requires enough of my cognitive skills to be back & positive energy to be back (I lost a lot in cPTSD), to be able to think up these small things

Tbh that is why I am looking for external help. If they can give me a bit of positive energy then I can get moving for a while. On my own, I would have to take a long time to clear out the negative first before I can generate the positivity

There was a scientific experiment too, it was great: going from loss to gain (negative to positive) requires energy.
Alive99 is offline  
 
Hugs from:
Breaking Dawn
 
Thanks for this!
Bill3
Bill3
Legendary
Bill3 has no updates.
 
Member Since: Mar 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 10,923
15 yr Member
24.1k hugs
given
PC PoohBah!
Default Jun 16, 2021 at 08:42 PM
  #44
Quote:
"So instead you wonder if there is a very small way that you can involve yourself in food assistance. You then realize that you could bring three small items you already have at home, and can spare"

I mean this consists of a few steps:

1. Actually remember that I can try and find a small way (I forget a LOT of the time)
2. Believe that me finding a small way for now will help enough (be patient)
3. Believe that I can actually find a small way
4. Rev my mind up/put it into gear to find options (such as, finding these three small items), thanks to being able to believe these things, or being positive enough, having enough positive energy to rev it up or whatever?
Well! You went right into doing what I was talking about--you broke up the task into smaller steps!!

You are focused on your fourth step, coming up with the smaller tasks. That is something you can practice at home. Whenever something seems daunting around your place, you can practice by thinking up ways to subdivide it. Like for a basic example it is too much to clean your living space all at once, let's say, and you are blocked. How might you get started? Vacuum one room per day, dust a half of a room per day, do just one load of laundry, etc. There are many ways the task could be broken up. You could practice the step of coming up with smaller tasks by identifying many of those ways.
Bill3 is offline  
 
Hugs from:
Breaking Dawn
 
Thanks for this!
Alive99, Breaking Dawn, Quietmind 2
Alive99
Veteran Member
Alive99 has no updates.
 
Member Since: Dec 2020
Location: Hungary
Posts: 505
3 yr Member
172 hugs
given
Default Jun 17, 2021 at 06:23 AM
  #45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill3 View Post
Well! You went right into doing what I was talking about--you broke up the task into smaller steps!!

Heh it actually took me a few months of recent observation, that's what I used to write out this list of steps here.

And I kinda have to practice always remembering that I can get to believe in the first 3 steps. Like, I always forget still. It needs a lot of practice lol.

But yeah, it helped writing out those mental steps.



Quote:
You are focused on your fourth step, coming up with the smaller tasks. That is something you can practice at home. Whenever something seems daunting around your place, you can practice by thinking up ways to subdivide it. Like for a basic example it is too much to clean your living space all at once, let's say, and you are blocked. How might you get started? Vacuum one room per day, dust a half of a room per day, do just one load of laundry, etc. There are many ways the task could be broken up. You could practice the step of coming up with smaller tasks by identifying many of those ways.
I mean, I did this fine before trauma hit me too much. I'm trying to relearn what once used to be automatic and easy. lol but yeah.

You are making me think about this again though.

So the cleaning example is simpler because it's like, familiar too. My biggest issue is with tasks that involve a completely new topic. A lot of my remote work stuff requires that.

That is what I have to relearn the most, dealing with new stuff.

Where you mention that there are many ways to break up the task into parts/ways of doing it, and you identifying those many ways is how you can come up with the way to do the actual task... That was interesting.

That is basically exactly like what I mentioned in my post above... you are revved up enough to think of all that (or at least a few of the most sensible options) and juggle all that and then quickly put together what fits best. Being adaptable and flexible in this way.

That's how I used to be.

That's what's required for all those work tasks involving a new topic/whatever new thing.

I do have one recurring work task that's basically always the same thing, very repetitive. I find it's easiest for me to do that task.

But everything else...even if just a little new stuff..... um, yeah. Have to relearn this and have enough positive energy for it. That's where social support was coming to mind lol.

Also... Today I got up feeling okay, tired because I still have sleep debt but I felt good. And I felt like I could do this a bit, this "revving up" and "juggling stuff" and all that. The positive energy was there....it's also tiring me out though. I'm tired out already lol.

I want to find out how to be like, not let it tire me out. It's probably because the positive energy - if it comes from myself - "invalidates" the negative emotions (the ones that are still unprocessed). I know depression etc can be like that.

I am not sure why if it comes from others, the positive energy, why it then isn't "invalidating" but instead I take it up fine and it helps me. Weird. Does anyone have any idea on that? Or is it just simply how humans work, needing the social support for more positive energy?

I understand there are limits to social support too, of course. And I'm able to accept that if I do a lot of this stuff alone then it takes a loooong time to get to fully recover/recover enough anyway.

I wrote more here but I put it in my journal thingy instead because it was going too far from the original topic.

So yeah.... It's gonna take time on my own to get back to fully normal with it.

But talking about how to learn & relearn all this also helps, it gives me hope too, and like, just a little step forward each time. So thank you for all your input! If you have any other thoughts, feel free to add more, if not, that's fine too, just saying.
Alive99 is offline  
 
Thanks for this!
Bill3
Alive99
Veteran Member
Alive99 has no updates.
 
Member Since: Dec 2020
Location: Hungary
Posts: 505
3 yr Member
172 hugs
given
Default Jun 17, 2021 at 06:32 AM
  #46
I think I do actually have a real question....pertaining to the topic, lol. What are the proper boundaries for social support? With family and people who do truly care about me?

I get it that with most friendships, they are loose enough that you can't really ask for anything at all, if you can't have good times with those friends then don't be near them, while not being able to have good times with them. I get that. I lost the IRL friends because I didn't understand that they were only good for that. I was there for them when they were acutely suicidal, when they were being majorly deceived by a guy, when they needed money to finish their college degree, or even to just buy more wholesome food, etc.... Yeah maybe I was there for them too much because that's why I had to quit these relationships when they weren't there for me. (One of them was a toxic relationship, the other one wasn't toxic but wasn't there for me anyway & tried to just do a personal attack on me instead)

But it's whatever. What are the normal boundaries for family / for people who do truly care? What is too much to ask for, "out of the ordinary" when supporting someone with depression&trauma&cPTSD?

Does this question make sense? Is there a way to summarise an answer to it? Are there resources, articles about this, I don't know? I've never seen any.
Alive99 is offline  
 
Thanks for this!
Bill3
ArtleyWilkins
Magnate
ArtleyWilkins has no updates.
 
Member Since: Oct 2018
Location: USA
Posts: 2,786
5 yr Member
7 hugs
given
PC PoohBah!
Default Jun 17, 2021 at 05:15 PM
  #47
Friends and family aren't therapists. They are going to have personal reactions to whatever is shared, not "therapist" objective responses. They are going to have limits because they aren't really trained to deal with mental health issues. They are going to make mistakes because they're just lay persons, not mental health experts. They are going to have their own personal stuff get mixed up in the other person's personal stuff, and that can be a mess.

It is easy to burn out a friend or family member with just too much heavy stuff. Honestly, people have to be careful to save the particularly heavy mental health stuff mostly for the experts, and from the other direction, it's okay to tell someone close to you "I don't know how to help you with that." That is honestly kinder and more truthful than trying to do so much that we get buried under someone else's issues and start feeling responsible for them, or we make definite errors in what we say or do (with the greatest of intentions) because we really are in over our head.

Teaching has taught me to have boundaries. Teenagers can latch on really quickly to teachers who try to be a "friend" or "counselor" to them, and it really can become a disaster. It's taught me I can listen to a point, but there comes that point when my response becomes, "Why don't we go to your counselor and you can speak to him/her about this? I'm really not quite equipped to help you with this." It's the kindest and most honest thing I can do in those instances. You can do that with friends and family also. There is a point when you have to know "this is just too big."

As a parent, I've been in some pretty serious discussions with my kids (more than I ever have with any other friends). Even there, the point came when I knew I needed to help them seek more professional help. I knew what I "could" do, and I also knew what was beyond even my ability as a parent (which is probably much more than you would run into with a friend). We ALL have limits, in ability and/or in capacity.

If a friend is asking too much, as a good friend you let them know. People have their own personal limitations, and we have to respect their personal boundaries about what they are willing to hear, to do, to help with. It doesn't necessarily mean they don't care. They have their own reasons for their own limitations. It's important (and very difficult) to not take their boundaries as a rejection, but that is what we have to learn to do to maintain healthy relationships long-term.
ArtleyWilkins is offline  
 
Thanks for this!
Bill3, Quietmind 2
Alive99
Veteran Member
Alive99 has no updates.
 
Member Since: Dec 2020
Location: Hungary
Posts: 505
3 yr Member
172 hugs
given
Default Jun 17, 2021 at 07:59 PM
  #48
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins View Post
It is easy to burn out a friend or family member with just too much heavy stuff.

(...) trying to do so much that we get buried under someone else's issues and start feeling responsible for them
That's what I did for 4 years with that "best friend" I had. That is, the energy was drained out of me with me trying to help her so much.

As for the rest of your post. I know what to avoid. So you don't have to tell me any of that.


But I don't know what is okay to ask for from family. Friends are not relevant here as it is now, I don't have any IRL friends left.

As you can see, my thread title's about that too (how to find social support).


So, instead of the avoidance mindset, I would like to have the approach mindset here.

I know what's too much, but I don't know what I CAN ask for. What fits with the normal boundaries.

I did not know I shouldn't put so much energy in with that "best friend" (and another friend but that was less extreme thank god), exactly because I don't know from experience about what's a truly quality friendship and so yeah, I don't know what I CAN ask for. (This includes family too, like I said I don't have IRL friends left)

Especially as since cPTSD I have a problem with handling conflict, the more personal it is, the worse my ability. So I don't really want to learn the hard way always, like, if it looks like I'd have to have a fight about it if family doesn't feel like helping me with something, ....I'd rather not even ask for it.

So I'm asking here what's ok and normal to ask for.


I may not have worded my original question about this clearly enough because it sounds like I was asking about the "avoidance part", but I hope it is clear enough now. Thanks.

Last edited by Alive99; Jun 17, 2021 at 08:20 PM..
Alive99 is offline  
 
Hugs from:
Bill3
 
Thanks for this!
Quietmind 2
Alive99
Veteran Member
Alive99 has no updates.
 
Member Since: Dec 2020
Location: Hungary
Posts: 505
3 yr Member
172 hugs
given
Default Jun 17, 2021 at 08:36 PM
  #49
-deleted a lot here-

Because I realised I didn't like the idea that family or anyone who truly CARES will EASILY burn out.

I was asking about people who do truly care.

People who do truly care do not EASILY burn out.

I didn't EASILY burn out either, I put in a whole 4 years first. Because I cared.

So yeah, nevermind this topic. I don't want to discuss how easy or how hard it is for people to burn out. I know first hand. So it wasn't what I was asking about at all. I understand you focused on other people in your response, but that's not useful to me because I already overfocus on other people. I don't need to have EVEN MORE empathy focused on other people. I have to learn to focus it on myself.

Last edited by Alive99; Jun 17, 2021 at 09:02 PM..
Alive99 is offline  
 
Hugs from:
Bill3
Alive99
Veteran Member
Alive99 has no updates.
 
Member Since: Dec 2020
Location: Hungary
Posts: 505
3 yr Member
172 hugs
given
Default Jun 17, 2021 at 08:48 PM
  #50
-deleted-
Alive99 is offline  
 
Hugs from:
Bill3
Bill3
Legendary
Bill3 has no updates.
 
Member Since: Mar 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 10,923
15 yr Member
24.1k hugs
given
PC PoohBah!
Default Jun 17, 2021 at 10:23 PM
  #51
Quote:
What are the normal boundaries for family / for people who do truly care? What is too much to ask for, "out of the ordinary" when supporting someone with depression&trauma&cPTSD?
Okay I will give it a try. I just thought about it and wrote down what occurred to me, I assume that there is plenty of room to comment on what
I said or to add more.

Note: There will always be judgment involved, there is always a risk that one inadvertently asks "too much".

What strikes me as less risky:

I liked what Artley Wilkins said. Part of what is okay to ask for is what is within someone's nonprofessional skill set.

Asking someone infrequently.

Asking in a real pinch (as opposed to a crisis) where practical help is really needed.

Asking someone where previous help has been more or less equal in both directions.

Asking someone who has not turned you down recently.

Asking someone who (as far as you know) isn't overwhelmed/very busy with their own issues.

Asking someone who has given you good reason to think that they don't mind being asked, or even like being asked.

Last edited by Bill3; Jun 18, 2021 at 12:04 AM..
Bill3 is offline  
 
Thanks for this!
Alive99
Alive99
Veteran Member
Alive99 has no updates.
 
Member Since: Dec 2020
Location: Hungary
Posts: 505
3 yr Member
172 hugs
given
Default Jun 18, 2021 at 04:55 PM
  #52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill3 View Post
Okay I will give it a try. I just thought about it and wrote down what occurred to me, I assume that there is plenty of room to comment on what
I said or to add more.

I really appreciate that! I find this helpful for sure. I do have some question too below where it's unclear etc.



Quote:
Note: There will always be judgment involved, there is always a risk that one inadvertently asks "too much".
Judgment by the person who I asked "too much" from?



Quote:
What strikes me as less risky:

I liked what Artley Wilkins said.
Yeah, less risky stuff, I was definitely asking about that

Yeah, Artley Wilkins had a good summary of the topic he/she was talking about, just it was not for my situation, but that's okay.

It would have been very good advice to me though at the start of those 4 years when I got pulled into helping that "friend". Because I feel like the advice was from the pov and position of the person that's being asked to help/giving the help/support. And I was in that position then.


OK, now I'll have some thoughts on the list you wrote out.

Quote:
Part of what is okay to ask for is what is within someone's nonprofessional skill set.

Yeah I think that makes total sense. But it's kinda a general idea too to me because people would need to state pretty explicitly what is within in their skills. Unless it's like, I know them very, very well and they've shared a lot about themselves...but then they probably have already stated it pretty explicitly anyway lol

Quote:
Asking someone infrequently.

How infrequently in the case of family?

Quote:
Asking in a real pinch (as opposed to a crisis) where practical help is really needed.

Yeah, makes sense.

I am not clear on the note on crisis though. What is different from this when it's a crisis?

Quote:
Asking someone where previous help has been more or less equal in both directions.

Over what timeframe does it need to be equal? In a day, in a week, in a month, in the whole relationship overall?

How about when it is about family? Parents?

Quote:
Asking someone who has not turned you down recently.
I noticed my mother has a er, propensity to first say "no" automatically.

Or to start up thinking aloud about what obstacles are in the way. Her mind immediately goes to other people, such as her husband, my sister, anyone else.

What do you think about this? I don't understand this thing of hers and that bothers me that I don't know what to make of it.

Quote:
Asking someone who (as far as you know) isn't overwhelmed/very busy with their own issues.

Yeah, that's OK.

Quote:
Asking someone who has given you good reason to think that they don't mind being asked, or even like being asked.
Refer to "Asking someone who has not turned you down recently"

So basically I'm having issues there. That's why I said I don't want to fight or anything like that.

And I'm having issues with trust because of it. I don't want to start thinking in the wrong way about all of it. I feel like I really have to figure this out.

Specifically, I start feeling paranoid that family members are going to start to hate me and stuff like that.

...

I know this is from the "best friend" crap, the person I helped like that for 4 years. She started being hateful towards me in the end. I even had an unusually clear emotional flashback this morning about it, that involved family and I instantly understood that it was from my experience with that toxic behaviour of that "friend". The way it affected me what she did eventually, that traumatised me outright on top of the cPTSD I already had. That is what I had the flashback about. And then I was like I wasn't going to allow that to ruin family relations!! I had another flashback or something like that afterwards but I can't even remember it now, very tired atm.

(I don't know if you saw the post I deleted, I was writing about stuff like that in that too)

***

Anyway. I have another concern here regarding context. So this list, it's a list for general social support yeah? For people who are like... mildly depressed? Or worse than mildly depressed? Severe depression? cPTSD?

This is relevant for me so thank you if you can give me a context on that.

***

My own context/background:

I am really not going to complain here but I DID consider several times to go to an inpatient facility, I got a referral from my psychiatrist, and I was rejected in a sense when I went in for the first interview. I mean....they did say they can try to take me in for 2 weeks and see if that works. Because they work in large groups and my disability doesn't allow me to be able to work with that (not a mental disability, I don't want to go into details). But that wasn't the worst. The worst was that during the interview, the person, a clinical psychologist, refused to accommodate my disability. I found it truly ludicrous. Like he seemed like an intelligent guy? But does this anyway?

That isn't where the experiences end... This was pre-covid, and then during lockdown I got a referral to a trauma centre. I went in for the interview with a young woman who was still training to be a therapist or something, I'm not sure, but she not only did not accommodate my disability but she went as far as abusing it. In a very sensitive setting, after all, it was going to be an interview about trauma. I was given a form to fill out about my trauma symptoms afterwards, it had a question about how strongly on a 0-10 scale I got my trauma active in the moment while filling out the interview. I put a 10.

So, I just am not able to go try again for a while with professionals and I only want to see if I can have support from family.

And my situation is, well, yeah, recovering from cPTSD, and like I am in a really strange mindspace or whatever, ....... My brain easily overloads, I fight sleep debt, and extreme stress, and so on. I'm not going to get into details. Because like I said the point isn't complaining. I am giving all this for background information.

It was a background information for this: I have to make a decision whether I really am just going to rely on myself only and not look for any support, but that then means I'd be taking up the "karma" or I don't know what it is, from the "best friend" who added to my trauma and who did somehow learn to not trust anyone and just became really sh*** to everyone expecting them to do everything for her and being angry and hateful if they didn't, she was just unable to have any real relationship anymore, and I do not want to end up there!!

Also if I decide to just be 100% self-reliant and zero support or zero close relationships then it's like.... I was working for years for the opposite goal. Do I just change my goal all of a sudden like that ?? Then what did I work for so hard ??

Last edited by Alive99; Jun 18, 2021 at 05:15 PM..
Alive99 is offline  
Bill3
Legendary
Bill3 has no updates.
 
Member Since: Mar 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 10,923
15 yr Member
24.1k hugs
given
PC PoohBah!
Default Jun 18, 2021 at 05:16 PM
  #53
Quote:
Judgment by the person who I asked "too much" from?
No, exercising good judgment as to what is "too much" and what isn't. What might be "too much" for one person might be completely fine with another person.

Quote:
But it's kinda a general idea too to me because people would need to state pretty explicitly what is within in their skills.
Well I sort of think that a lot of the nonprofessional help that one might need are really for the most part within people's skill sets. Practical, day-to-day stuff. But maybe for example someone is impatient and not a good listener, you know? That sort of concern.

Quote:
I am not clear on the note on crisis though. What is different from this when it's a crisis?
Not everybody wants to be involved in a crisis, and not everybody is calm and nonjudgmental in a crisis...

Quote:
Over what timeframe does it need to be equal? In a day, in a week, in a month, in the whole relationship overall?

How about when it is about family? Parents?
As to time frame well not in a short period of time like a day, week, month.

But now that you have brought this up I am thinking about it a little differently. (Thanks!) Now what I am thinking is that in each relationship there is a "normal". Normally perhaps we are overall givers to some and receivers from others. I think what I am getting at is that a request for help shouldn't be too far away from whatever "normal" is for that specific relationship. So maybe someone normally supports you and is okay with that, but if you asking for help for the fifth time in a week maybe that will get beyond their limits?
Including parents.

Quote:
I noticed my mother has a er, propensity to first say "no" automatically.

Or to start up thinking aloud about what obstacles are in the way. Her mind immediately goes to other people, such as her husband, my sister, anyone else.

What do you think about this?
It sounds like she doesn't really want to be called upon for help, or is too busy, too stressed, etc.
Bill3 is offline  
 
Thanks for this!
Alive99
Alive99
Veteran Member
Alive99 has no updates.
 
Member Since: Dec 2020
Location: Hungary
Posts: 505
3 yr Member
172 hugs
given
Default Jun 18, 2021 at 05:33 PM
  #54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill3 View Post
No, exercising good judgment as to what is "too much" and what isn't. What might be "too much" for one person might be completely fine with another person.

Ah okay. I think in my case my inability to do personal conflict since cPTSD, that makes things harder even if I have good judgment about this.


Quote:
Well I sort of think that a lot of the nonprofessional help that one might need are really for the most part within people's skill sets. Practical, day-to-day stuff. But maybe for example someone is impatient and not a good listener, you know? That sort of concern.
Yes, I'm interested in practical, day-to-do stuff here.

I'm not really looking to have family listen to issues of mine at length. I get nothing out of that sortof thing myself.



Quote:
Not everybody wants to be involved in a crisis, and not everybody is calm and nonjudgmental in a crisis...
I was involved/allowed myself to get involved in the crisis of the "best friend" in 2014. She wouldn't get involved in mine in 2018.


(2014: That was when I started helping her so much for 4 years.)



Quote:
As to time frame well not in a short period of time like a day, week, month.

But now that you have brought this up I am thinking about it a little differently. (Thanks!) Now what I am thinking is that in each relationship there is a "normal". Normally perhaps we are overall givers to some and receivers from others.
I'm glad if I had you think about it and if you got something out of that.

Interesting topic too. I don't know about the givers/receivers stuff. I think socially, for social relationships that are not deep, intimate, this is true, I will give to someone and will receive from someone else and so on. With close relationships, I think I prefer the giving/receiving to be balanced.

So much so that after the cPTSD started I was really uncomfortable with a person just wanting to play the giving role. I wanted a normal and balanced friendship with them and wanted to give back and she didn't want me to and it caused issues lol (also it was because for her it was social relating and for me I wanted it to be a close relationship, so she didn't mind it being not balanced and I did)

But by now I accepted that it's okay if I'm temporarily more supported maybe.... If I even want to be supported because it's like pulling tooth to try and find it for the more "close relationships" IRL. That's where the two IRL friends were gone too. Again, see my inability to do personal conflict



Quote:
I think what I am getting at is that a request for help shouldn't be too far away from whatever "normal" is for that specific relationship. So maybe someone normally supports you and is okay with that, but if you asking for help for the fifth time in a week maybe that will get beyond their limits?
Including parents.
I don't really understand this limits stuff.

That "best friend" asked me for help more than 5 times a week. There were many weeks like that. I never felt it was past my limits. But I think I did get too involved and allowed it to take from my life. But it's a long story....

So yeah, I don't think I understand the limits part. Not sure why not.

It's like... if I asked a family member once and they instantly said "no" then I instantly feel like there is absolutely no space, that the limits are immediate, or something like that?


I instantly feel like that it's nonnegotiable or that it's impossibly hard to negotiate. And I was not like this before the "best friend" added to my cPTSD. cPTSD itself did originally not make me that way, it was something the "best friend" added to it that made me feel this way. It's a big problem for me with this stuff.

It....it feels like people are just not going to help at all. It feels like if I tried to ask again then they WILL hate me. Especially if an argument was going to start up on the issue. Then I feel like they WILL hate me, that they WILL think I'm too....too anything, I don't know. Like, rejecting who I really am.


All that's just irrational of course but yeah



Quote:
It sounds like she doesn't really want to be called upon for help, or is too busy, too stressed, etc.
She's not too busy or too stressed. She's a pensioner and enjoys life and is very happy with her husband. She has a lot of positive energy and vitality. She maintains herself very well for her age.

She is okay with some basic routines that she doesn't find hard to do and when I "came out" about being suicidal (this was 2 years ago), then she was instantly very concerned and she really helped me there.

Does any of this give you more info on placing what this response means?



And I have another concern here regarding context. So this list, it's a list for general social support yeah? For people who are like... mildly depressed? Or worse than mildly depressed? Severe depression? cPTSD?

Or mental illnesses aside. For people who are constantly in a pinch? Constantly overloaded?

Or more like for people who sometimes feel like it's nice to get a little help here and there?

I think this is an important question here.

Last edited by Alive99; Jun 18, 2021 at 05:52 PM..
Alive99 is offline  
AzulOscuro
Grand Magnate
 
AzulOscuro's Avatar
AzulOscuro has no updates.
 
Member Since: Nov 2014
Location: Spain ( the land of flowers and gladness, lol!)
Posts: 3,822
8 yr Member
1,748 hugs
given
PC PoohBah!
Default Jun 18, 2021 at 06:43 PM
  #55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alive99 View Post






I'm curious, what techniques were those? If you can quote a little from page 207 I can identify that part in the ebook I got (it does not have page numbers).
Anyway my book is in Spanish so there are many possibilities that they don’t coincide in pages if you are using, for example, an English version.

I was only pointing out an example of an exercise where you get aware of your thoughts that freely appear in your mind for a limited time, in this case, along 5 minutes and you have to set them on a time line. From a remote past to a remote future.
To be honest, the book is pretty useful and go step by step, with practical exercises in order you to take conscious of how much our mind plays sometimes very bad games with us. Indeed, I’m thinking to give it another go. If I again stop it at the same page, never mind, I would like to refresh a little.

Then, the book propose some other exercises to help you disengage from the thoughts that may appear in your mind by using visualisation as picturing a train passing by and each one of the thoughts appearing are going in a wagon.
I don’t need that. I can see how my thoughts freely goes by when focussing on my breathing. I practise Breathing Mindfulness.
And sometimes I focus on the sounds I can hear from the outer. But, mainly I do it focussing on my breath.

I know you are not very fan of mindfulness, I know it for another of your threads. But, it has worked for me in many occasions.

I even think to remember that I wrote a thread here explaining the technique.

As I told you I never lived a deep limit situation that could create a trauma but I’m pretty sensible and let’s say that sometimes I haven’t been treat in the best way. So, I can’t compare myself with a person who suffered a trauma, this is the reason why I can’t tell you much more about how you can heal. Wished I could.

But, I love your attitude about being more open with people and trying to opening doors for them. I’m also in the same point as you.

__________________
Social Anxiety and Depression. Cluster C traits.
Trying to improve my English. My apologies for errors and mistakes in advance.

Mankind is complex: Make deserts blossom and lakes die. ( GIL SCOTT-HERSON)
AzulOscuro is offline  
 
Hugs from:
Alive99
 
Thanks for this!
Alive99
AzulOscuro
Grand Magnate
 
AzulOscuro's Avatar
AzulOscuro has no updates.
 
Member Since: Nov 2014
Location: Spain ( the land of flowers and gladness, lol!)
Posts: 3,822
8 yr Member
1,748 hugs
given
PC PoohBah!
Default Jun 18, 2021 at 07:28 PM
  #56
I see this topic, the main one in the thread, so interesting. Because, in the end we are social animals as you said.
I do understand that the deeper and harder your experiences have been, the tougher you will find to trust people. As an extreme example, see these kids who have been neglected or even abused when kids.
How could they trust or even picture themselves that someone is gonna care?
Ok. Consider that even the parent who neglected his/her kid ( with only few and pathological examples), they are not a basket-case. They did it the best they could under their circumstances.

Each person deal with their life as best as they can. They may fail and even let you down but believe me they don’t do t on purpose. They react as they can as we do. You who knows much more about Psychology for obvious reasons and also because you love to study how others behave (as I do), you can understand them better than most of people. Use this skill. Make it matters.

__________________
Social Anxiety and Depression. Cluster C traits.
Trying to improve my English. My apologies for errors and mistakes in advance.

Mankind is complex: Make deserts blossom and lakes die. ( GIL SCOTT-HERSON)
AzulOscuro is offline  
 
Hugs from:
Alive99
 
Thanks for this!
Alive99
Alive99
Veteran Member
Alive99 has no updates.
 
Member Since: Dec 2020
Location: Hungary
Posts: 505
3 yr Member
172 hugs
given
Default Jun 18, 2021 at 07:41 PM
  #57
Quote:
Originally Posted by AzulOscuro View Post
I see this topic, the main one in the thread, so interesting. Because, in the end we are social animals as you said.
I do understand that the deeper and harder your experiences have been, the tougher you will find to trust people. As an extreme example, see these kids who have been neglected or even abused when kids.
How could they trust or even picture themselves that someone is gonna care?
Ok. Consider that even the parent who neglected his/her kid ( with only few and pathological examples), they are not a basket-case. They did it the best they could under their circumstances.

Each person deal with their life as best as they can. They may fail and even let you down but believe me they don’t do t on purpose. They react as they can as we do. You who knows much more about Psychology for obvious reasons and also because you love to study how others behave (as I do), you can understand them better than most of people. Use this skill. Make it matters.

Thank you. I rationally understand what you are saying here. My emotions do not understand it.
Alive99 is offline  
Alive99
Veteran Member
Alive99 has no updates.
 
Member Since: Dec 2020
Location: Hungary
Posts: 505
3 yr Member
172 hugs
given
Default Jun 18, 2021 at 07:51 PM
  #58
Quote:
Originally Posted by AzulOscuro View Post
I was only pointing out an example of an exercise where you get aware of your thoughts that freely appear in your mind for a limited time, in this case, along 5 minutes and you have to set them on a time line. From a remote past to a remote future.

Interesting exercise. I think I'm always aware of when specifically something happened. So it seems like an easy exercise



Quote:
To be honest, the book is pretty useful and go step by step, with practical exercises in order you to take conscious of how much our mind plays sometimes very bad games with us. Indeed, I’m thinking to give it another go. If I again stop it at the same page, never mind, I would like to refresh a little.
Yeah I agree, the emotions in our mind can play very bad games with us.



Quote:
Then, the book propose some other exercises to help you disengage from the thoughts that may appear in your mind by using visualisation as picturing a train passing by and each one of the thoughts appearing are going in a wagon. I don’t need that. I can see how my thoughts freely goes by when focussing on my breathing. I practise Breathing Mindfulness.
And sometimes I focus on the sounds I can hear from the outer. But, mainly I do it focussing on my breath.

I know you are not very fan of mindfulness, I know it for another of your threads. But, it has worked for me in many occasions.

I even think to remember that I wrote a thread here explaining the technique.
Wow I think you've just explained more here about why you like the breathing exercises. I never understood why people like them or what works for them with that. Where you said "I can see how my thoughts freely goes by when focussing on my breathing". That. I do that by default, not sure why it works differently for me but I do that by default. I assume we are talking of emotional thoughts here though.

Basically what I do with them is I treat them as "working hypotheses". I entertain myself with having the emotional thought and then I put it aside and wait for more information to see how much truth it really has to it. I can have more than one such "working hypothesis" too

(Working hypothesis = "A working hypothesis is a hypothesis that is provisionally accepted as a basis for further research in the hope that a tenable theory will be produced, even if the hypothesis ultimately fails")


It's entertaining for me as long as it's about my own attitudes.


But when it comes to trust in people's attitudes towards me, that's something I'm having a very hard time with.



Quote:
As I told you I never lived a deep limit situation that could create a trauma but I’m pretty sensible and let’s say that sometimes I haven’t been treat in the best way. So, I can’t compare myself with a person who suffered a trauma, this is the reason why I can’t tell you much more about how you can heal. Wished I could.

But, I love your attitude about being more open with people and trying to opening doors for them. I’m also in the same point as you.
Thank you again. I'm trying to keep up this attitude, yes, but then I get like, I don't know, flashbacks and stuff, like I described above, so it's hard
Alive99 is offline  
AzulOscuro
Grand Magnate
 
AzulOscuro's Avatar
AzulOscuro has no updates.
 
Member Since: Nov 2014
Location: Spain ( the land of flowers and gladness, lol!)
Posts: 3,822
8 yr Member
1,748 hugs
given
PC PoohBah!
Default Jun 18, 2021 at 08:07 PM
  #59
Emotions are substances in the brain. That’s it.
This is the aim of Mindfulness, to disengage of these emotions and thoughts in order to see the whole picture, a more rational view.
You are able to see and understand the other person further more, because of your empathy. You have emotions. Some people (a few) don’t even have them.
You have them, in another way, you haven’t been hurt so deep. But, there’s a middle point in which you can begin to use these emotions as an alley by a balance with your rational mind.

If you give me to choose between a person who is emotional and a person who can’t feel emotions. I choose the first one by far.
The matter is to find a balance so your mind can’t lie you, even when it could try to protect yourself. Because your rational mind is also present.

It takes practise to get that.
What your therapist tell you? Or what techniques (s)he is teaching you?

__________________
Social Anxiety and Depression. Cluster C traits.
Trying to improve my English. My apologies for errors and mistakes in advance.

Mankind is complex: Make deserts blossom and lakes die. ( GIL SCOTT-HERSON)
AzulOscuro is offline  
 
Thanks for this!
Alive99
Alive99
Veteran Member
Alive99 has no updates.
 
Member Since: Dec 2020
Location: Hungary
Posts: 505
3 yr Member
172 hugs
given
Default Jun 18, 2021 at 08:10 PM
  #60
@AzulOscuro You mentioned opening doors.....It's extra hard for me because I am trying to rewrite the most earlier models of attachment and relationship models I think....? You know, from very young childhood. AND I have zero guidance in it other than me reading up on a ton of psychology and a ton of observing myself and idk, stuff like that and sometimes posting on here.

And I don't want to fu** up like with my family, I didn't have a relationship with them from age 4-5 anymore except my brother and then my brother stopped paying attention too sometime around when I started primary school.

(My brother and my sister are several years older than me)

I don't know it's just ****ing crazy, the whole thing, I don't want to be like fu** it up totally

I've seen some change and it's been awesome but then it gets like it's going to threaten me with complete loss of trust, I don't know if that makes sense.

And I'm feeling like I'd better not even interact to make sure it doesn't get worse

Or I just shouldn't look for any support or anything from family either and just be 100% self-reliant and that's ok but then I'll definitely not be open to people at all lol and that's how it was before too and then why did I spend several years working on all this?!?!

Really there's a few basic things you have to pay attention to get better with depression too. And one of the things is social support and I don't even know what social support means anymore. Because I was never able to get it consistently.

And I wrote an email to my social worker last winter because we were only emailing because of lockdown. And I told her how I'm really low and worse than overwhelmed, and it's too many conflicts with family if I try to ask for help or if they expect too much of me because they would not want to recognise how bad and nonfunctional my state was, and she wrote back that I should pay attention to my mother's needs and should be open and I don't know, she listed my mother's complaints basically (they do talk over the phone sometimes with my mother), and I was like....please

I've never had an email from anyone as invalidating as that.
Alive99 is offline  
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:02 PM.
Powered by vBulletin® — Copyright © 2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.



 

My Support Forums

My Support Forums is the online community that was originally begun as the Psych Central Forums in 2001. It now runs as an independent self-help support group community for mental health, personality, and psychological issues and is overseen by a group of dedicated, caring volunteers from around the world.

 

Helplines and Lifelines

The material on this site is for informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis or treatment provided by a qualified health care provider.

Always consult your doctor or mental health professional before trying anything you read here.