How do you find "social support"?

(Responding to the comment on not having been hurt so deep)

At age 18 I lost my emotions.

They are coming back but it's this mess. Like I described just now.

I don't even see part of the emotions well for now. I'm trying to look at it like, OK here's this picture of puzzles, each emotional thingy being a puzzle piece in it. And I can look at the whole picture and I can see some of the puzzle pieces are foggy, vague. And I can see other pieces are clear and I can feel them fully and as soon as I can feel it fully my rational brain is able to manage it, provided that I've read up on enough psychology to have the knowledge about what the emotion means.

I'm okay with some of the puzzles not being identified and being fuzzy. But since I'm doing all this without any real guidance outside myself, I have to pick up the pieces from everywhere myself, psychology books, articles online, psychology forums, talking with people on forums as well .


The only thing I'm not okay with it is if the fuzzy pieces jump at me suddenly

It also helps if I can actually get an emotional thought that talks to me loud and clear, because then the emotional puzzle is instantly more clear too and not fuzzy anymore. And then I can work on it with the rational brain



The issue with family now has too many fuzzy pieces. Both of my emotions and of their emotions.



I didn't understand about the mind lying to you. Do you mean emotional (biased) thoughts? Or do you mean the mind generating theories about the emotions that don't really amount to more than "working hypotheses"?



I don't have a therapist right now. I ran from the last one after a couple of years because I was about to be retraumatised

Not sure if I understood you.
It’s not about treating the thoughts (any thoughts without labels) as hypothesis and see which others are gonna come that may give a meaning to the other ones. It’s about letting them passed away. How? Accepting them, giving them a welcome and without judging them or the emotions that they may generate, letting them go by, when they want go. Without you engaging with them. Why? Because you are not your thoughts. And because many of them are there to make noise, only to put yourself in alert when is not necessary.
I’m gonna put you an example; a thought that uses to come to my mind, “you are rare, you are not as other people, you are less than them. Something doesn’t work in yourself” Something similar to this. Ok. I’m trying this thought stops being a belief, so I let this thought be in my mind and I treat it like something that it’s gonna be there and I’m not gonna fight against it. What I get if I don’t fight it, I’m diminishing its power over me. (I know it’s not easy, but it’s the only way I have to not feed it).
There’s another kind of Mindfulness that also add compassion. And it’s very helpful for people who are dealing with a difficult situation and have painful emotions. I also use it.

I meant about intrusive thoughts. I was referring to how we have kind of alert on our mind based on past memories (sometimes bad memories-that’s the problem-) and our mind works as a protector by generating messages that recall us of these bad experiences or based on the defence mechanisms create to avoid these bad experiences may happen again.

It’s curious. I also quitted therapy a couple of years ago. My psychiatrist always tells me that psychotherapy could help me a lot, much more than meds but I’m reluctant to go again.
Last time, I didn’t feel traumatised but I felt a big pressure and I couldn’t go faster. I had a depressed time and I progressed at the beginning but then, I felt I had to go to a different pace. And I felt pressure.

I feel I really am pretty mindful in a sense about the "hypotheses" I think to myself, yeah they are "hypotheses", let's work with them, and then they pass - and I may revisit them later and perhaps see and understand more then.

This approach helps me be flexible, not get stuck in an emotional thought. I accept it and consider it as, it must have a message for me, and I want to understand the message more, and I want to understand what the explanation for it will be (that's where the "hypotheses" come in).



What are "any thoughts without labels"? Do you have an example of a thought like that?






Hm well my approach is my rational thoughts are mine. My emotional thoughts are where I also try to use the rational approach and be flexible with the "hypothesis" idea. And yes, it means I accept them "as is".

Do you have an example of a thought that is not your thought and is just there to make noise? Putting yourself in alert sounds like you are talking about anxious thoughts.





OK so you mean the so-called Automatic Negative Thoughts (ANTs) that CBT therapy deals with?

I see there could be a misunderstanding here then When I talked about the hypotheses, that wasn't thoughts about my own person...more like my attitudes to things in life.

I hate ANTs and I kick them out immediately if I ever was to have one but I don't often have them.

I remember I even had an angry rant talking with the therapist where I told them how much I hate this idea of ANTs and how much I just dont even wanna hear about them. Because what the fu** their use is? Rhetorical question lol.

She said okay, then we don't have to talk about ANTs. And we didn't talk about them again. Thank god : ))

That just comes out of instinct for me. I don't feel like being negative. I want to enjoy things instead


And I did read that you do have to fight this self-critical inner voice, not give in to it. Like be willing to say to it "you are bull****, go away". I think I agree with that approach, like I said that's my natural instinct too.

So basically yah I'm not very mindful there lol, I just push away bull**** negatives

I strongly believe in having self-respect and self-worth.

And I sometimes totally feel like that in therapies, they need to teach more of the fight mindset

And I like therapies that talk about building up self-esteem too so there is no such critical inner voice.




OK that's where this is interesting, so for you if you fight it, get angry against it, tell it it's bull**** and push it away it gets worse for you?

I think the one case where fighting and pushing it away can make it worse is when the message from the emotional thought is something that needs to be investigated, find facts, look at the objective situation, or simply understand the emotional insight from it. So for example if you feel you have low value then you want to build up your self-esteem, your sense of self-worth and self-respect.

So I agree that sometimes you can't just push away negative emotions because they have a strong message so if you fight it it will just become stronger. And then you have to work with that message and do something about it. If you are not sure initially what the message is, you can use a "working hypothesis" there too



Self-compassion?

I can sometimes do emotional imagination for imagining that I have a negative emotion - not one that comes with thoughts devaluing my self-worth, but just simply negative feelings, sadness, feeling low, etc - and then I give it a hug.

But yeah, emotional thoughts that devalue self-worth, I'm not playing around with those. Those simply need to go lol and the solution is proactively building up self-esteem

You lost your emotions at 18. I didn’t know. I closed myself up to the world at 17. But, I didn’t block my emotions, only they were all negative.

Wished I could help you but I don’t know a lot about it. I don’t have any advice to help someone to unblocked her/his emotions.
That’s why I asked you about a therapist but maybe someone else here can give you a clue.

Ah OK I see. Yeah, I try to process these memories and flashbacks. So that there are no distortions left from them.




Oh I meant I was going to her for a couple of years. I quit last November.

And yeah I think it can take some time therapist shopping to find one that "gets" you enough. So no pressure like that.

I just haven't really recovered from the experiences yet (trauma centre was in January + this thingy in November). I finally met the social worker as lockdown ended but I was having a hard time going to meet her. After those invalidating emails in winter. But I steeled myself alright and it was okay. But she's not a therapist, there is no way she can give me guidance on these things lol

That's OK. I've been working on this for several years and it's slowly getting better.

Interesting that you closed up at 17....was it due to a specific event?


And yes for me I think I block negative emotions too easily so that's why I reacted like that and then a lot of the positive emotions went with them

(Going to go now, will respond to posts later)

I see you are more advance than me.
You even practise self-compassion. It’s great. You walked a long way.

Clarifying:
I said “thoughts with any label” because along an exercise of mindfulness may appear any kind of thoughts, not only meaningful ones. Not only related to emotions. Any kind of thought, even non meaningful ones. It will depend on the moment you are in. You never know. You can’t force this. It’s your mind the one that generates them.

I like what you said here: I think I did get too involved and allowed it to take from my life.

That is what I am getting at. The other person, at some point, finds that to much is being asked of them, they don't want to devote that much of their life to being a helper.

Right, it could be that.

Right, you are describing when it is risky to ask, when you have those bad vibes from the other person. If the vibes you are getting are just the opposite of those, then it is less risky to ask.

At the moment I'm thinking of it as applying generally. These are the types of things (I am imagining) that anyone might want to consider when asking for help.

Right, and you don't have to end up there. You can get support from people without becoming demanding and angry.

I don't think you have to go to zero support. My thought is to be judicious about who you ask, and how often you ask them, by paying attention to the types of things that I brought up.

It sounds like she helped you when you were suicidal but in general doesn't help too much.

What if you ask her about her thinking regarding helping you out--why was she very helpful then but less helpful now?

Thanks It's very rare that I can call up my emotional imagination like that. It needs the right state or mood or something, I don't know. I noticed it's easier if I am reading a CBT book that describes examples/anecdotes and I am like, ready with a rational system to give me a safe space




I always know what thought I'm thinking, though that doesn't mean I know the solution right away to all problems

I am still thinking that maybe you are talking about anxious thoughts?

BTW where I said that I can only do the working hypotheses stuff about my own attitudes...I think I sometimes can do it about other people's attitudes too but it requires a lot more of me to be able to. For now it requires a lot, including a lot of control of emotions to keep enough flexibility about it, also the "psychoeducation" I've been doing is needed. But I've been able to do it sometimes.

Okay I think I'll need to clarify the situation/context more. I will do that more below.



Oh no no no that's just my own feeling. It's not the truth. It's when my brain/mind gets inflexible about the issue, when I'm not able to use a working hypothesis about it and keep flexible. It's just pretty horrible to feel that way lol


Again it's just my own feeling and my brain/mind getting inflexible. Luckily, because I was talking about family, and I know my family isn't like that!! It's the sh**ty "friend" I had.

Really I think people who act and respond in a constructive or otherwise non-toxic way don't give bad vibes like that even if they say "no", but in my case my past keeps sending me back into those feelings.



I see. These three seemed like for milder issues or about people who are not really close with you (general you) emotionally:

"Asking someone infrequently.

Asking in a real pinch (as opposed to a crisis) where practical help is really needed.

Asking someone where previous help has been more or less equal in both directions."

Actually I was really curious here again. What do you consider a crisis?

You mentioned not everyone is calm or nonjudgmental in a crisis. Again, what do you imagine as a crisis? The person being like suicidal? Or what does a person in crisis need from others in your definition of a crisis?



I was specifically talking about being hateful. And like, being unable to have close relationships or care about anyone.

Specifically, I wasn't talking about getting demanding. This is what I meant above by clarifying context more....

I'm more like, just don't want to deal with asking anyone for anything in a personal, close relationship if it's this much of a liability. I'm fine if it's not a personal relationship.

(But I'm not going to bother with hate. I don't even know why I said that I have that fear of being hateful. I don't have enough emotional energy to bother with being hateful plus it's just really NOT me)


Of course, this would mean not having any personal, close relationships at all, because you can't have one without asking for things (and giving things if the other person asks you).


And btw expecting things doesn't have to involve being openly demanding or openly angry towards the person who you expect things from.

So for example. My "friend" was not - openly - demanding at all. She never asked directly, never, ever. She would just talk at length about what she'd like....or get emotional and do emotional drama about her needs. But never asked, let alone demanded anything directly.

Yet she did have a lot of expectations and would get angry if I did not give her more money etc. I know this bc she talked about it behind my back...




I feel better right now but it's because I decided I want to just be able to do my days (instead of working at night) and find my old/real self fully again, and while I do that I don't want any too close relationships. Or atleast, not work actively on any of that.... I have some interactions/relationships with family members, but it's like I'll be like.... it's up to them, if it's little interaction then it's little interaction, okay, if it's more than little then more...... (and same for anyone else, not just family. Keep everyone at an arm's length specifically)

Dunno but this thought made me feel calm. But then I also feel like.... How long is it going to have to be like that??

I don't know how much I even want anything like that about relationships, yeah.


I don't think she would be able to answer that heh. She's not very reflective


But I asked her how many hours a week she spends with my sister. She was reluctant to answer at first, not sure why LOL, but anyway she seemed okay soon and I think we ended up at:

- phone calls 3 times on average for an average week, totaling an hour of talking. I've witnessed some of these calls, she's practically glued to the phone listening to my sister's complaints and worries and idk. Her husband isn't very nice to her and the 4 kids are a lot.

- once a week on average, she and her husband go and visit (50km travel by train) and babysit the kids. That's about 8 hours including travel there and back.

So, say, 9 hours a week.

I think my sister knows better how to share feelings than I do

They always talked a lot more with each other than with me. Like, we went once for a vacation in Italy together. And they'd talk to each other and not to me. I remember that very well.

Though, lately she's wanted to talk to me, even "nag" me "let's talk about stuff".

No I really am not good at this social support thing :P

OK so I realise the issue is that I would like to know about when I CAN ask and not about when I CANNOT ask. I focus enough on the CANNOT already. So I'd need to see this in a more positive light. In this list it was the last item that made me feel a bit good. But it was kinda vague and general to me

Oh well I do know I can't guarantee the interaction will be positive and that's what's a liability when I'm already severely overloaded in the given moment

Here I try to reframe them as needed in a positive light.

It is less risky to ask for something:

--within their nonprofessional skill set

--within your regular frequency of asking

--when you are in a pinch

--when you are asking someone who (as far as you know) has time to help

--when you are asking someone who has given you good reason to think that are okay with being asked

--when you are calm, or you know that they will be calm, and okay with you being upset

*****

What do I mean by a crisis? I guess that I mean when emotions (theirs or yours) are running high. So yes, suicidality is a good example. I tried to include this thought in the last item above.

Comments are welcome

With regard to your mother, can you say more about what she has been doing/proposing lately in regard to listening to/supporting you?

Thanks for this again. I have been thinking about it myself, and I think the problem isn't even these boundaries. The problem is something about my past and unprocessed emotions messing up my inner state and then consequently the interactions (even if it is not visible to others, if I keep all of it in).



Oh god. I'm not sure but this may have given me some bit of understanding on something. So do you mean, emotions are visibly running high? And the person wants/needs emotional support, like, outright consolation? And like, the person needs it for long hours for a while? Or like, the person needs to talk about their issue for long hours to a sympathetic listening ear? Is that what people think of when hearing the word "crisis"?



I will add more on the topic of seeking support in crisis but I'd like to hear from you first about whether I'm going in the right direction with this.



Err... Listening to me? Listening to what? Venting? Pouring out sad feelings?

I'm just trying to confirm that this is what you meant - if not then let me know.

As far as other support, she likes to feel for me a little sometimes (for a few seconds), she sometimes tells me let's go for a walk, or she is happy to cook a lunch for me or make a favourite drink for me. She's let me sleep over if too tired to go home & I had a period where I stopped caring at all and didn't even make food for myself so I moved to her place temporarily because I realised that was the responsible thing to do (ask for help, not do it all alone). It was the same with the suicidal feeling, I realised the responsible thing was to tell her/family so I wouldn't get even worse. Though, I probably was suicidal because the GP put me on Xanax 3 times a day for a few weeks (this was 2 years ago). It made me feel weird like that.


And I'm not sure really what else she has in mind but apart from her nagging me let's talk, (I am not sure what she has in mind with that, does she want to feel closer? or does she want to help me?), she keeps asking how I feel and also keeps telling me how good it is that I seem to be doing good - but it's only because I smile at her lol. Because she's important to me so I smile easily at her. That's really all it is. I don't think I can explain that to her and I didn't really try too hard at explaining. Because I know if I try to emphasise that no, I don't feel good, then she can also feel down (for a short time), and she can show pretty intense expressions and I'd rather stay away from that now. ...I understand it's just her getting emotionally involved but I'd rather not burden her and it doesn't help me either


Normally it's not a problem for me if someone shows negative emotions, I used to have a high tolerance for it, but after years of taking care of that "friend" and actually, another friend at the end of high school who kept pouring out her negativity on me, constantly venting, and sharing her negative thoughts, worries, everything, well yeah I just think I want to stop that pattern or something. Because it was just too much eventually back then at the end of high school too (when I was 18).

So I have low tolerance for it now, I need to get better first, until then it's really tricky, I just realised I was unable to fall asleep last night for 3 hours (until I took a xanax) because I took in some negative emotion from family too much. Yeah I had to ask, yeah, I was too tired to go home, I was about to go home, packed up my things and then I realised I was about to get knocked out (sleep debt). And realised the responsible thing for my most basic well-being (sleep, being able to function at all) was not going out and travel ~1 hour home at night. Yeah don't ask why it took me until that long to get ready, I was just simply too tired all weekend (sleep debt). So she was really annoyed and didn't really want to agree but did agree fast enough but it just still went over my threshold and couldn't sleep for 3 hours and that's gonna interfere with my day today lol. I am used to these little problems becoming bigger issues but I'm fed up with it also.

All this is why I want to really disconnect for now even from family. Without feeling low from it, like, I need to see it's temporary or something...

edit: Plus I need to see how it's "best friend" (plus the other person who first created the cPTSD for me) feelings that mess up things even with family



Anyhow I am going to try and do something with my day now.

EDIT: Sorry, I think a lot came out of me now, it's just,.... I don't expect consolation or whatever, I think I don't wanna think about this more until the end of today at least.



***

OK I didn't reflect on your list yet but this popped up for me now so I'll share real quick:

"within their nonprofessional skill set"

Yes that's OK with family

"within your regular frequency of asking"

I feel like that's OK too tbh, it's hard to tell, I don't know, do I ask "am I asking for help too often?" O_o My mother defffinitely doesn't spend 9 hours with me a week lol

"when you are in a pinch"

Yeah that's what I do, I ask exactly when I'm in a pinch and ...well yeah I've said a few things about that in my above post.

EDIT (added after I wrote all the rest of this post bc that's when I got these thoughts): Maybe I'm in a pinch too often but that's my condition, or what should I do about it?! The one thing I can do about it is disconnect from family too and just pay for services, food, taxi, whatever (Say taxi yesterday to take me home when tired and about to be knocked out) But it also just annoys me tbh and makes me lose trust more if I think of it that negatively. I dunno. I have to think about this part a load more. But it DOES make me feel negative if I think of paying through the nose for a taxi just because randomly I may receive a "no", when usually it's totally fine if I sleep over?? What's that randomness?? It makes me lose trust, because "best friend" got so random too especially near the end of the relationship. She ("best friend") used to not be randomly negative like that.... ?!?

I just know my instincts are SCREAMING at me "RUN!!!!" "don't risk more!!!!"

And then other instinct screaming at me "don't be open" and then "its gonna be ****ed up if I'm not open anymore ever with anyone else ever again"

It's a mess.

"when you are asking someone who (as far as you know) has time to help"

Yes that's OK

"when you are asking someone who has given you good reason to think that are okay with being asked"

That's where it gets messed up because it seems so random. Maybe she's just a moody person, I don't know.... She's usually happy but can also be intensely negative for short times like make these intense negative faces if she's in a bad mood. I really don't think she has a high capacity for internalising. ME EITHER LOL it causes problems because I have to choose between not sleeping for hours unless I take the xanax or externalising and who wants all that conflict if the goal was to have a nice supportive relationship (mutually supportive preferably). Dunno, this is too much for me while I try to just recover from the cPTSD : (

"when you are calm, or you know that they will be calm, and okay with you being upset"

YES this is SO random with her
I CANNOT predict her responses, absolutely not, lol

And I cannot predict or even READ MY OWN inner state like I don't know when it's going to be over my threshold and when it's okay! Sometimes I'm fine with it and sometimes I take it in too much

And I noticed I can see myself taking it in sorta.....but I have no idea what to do with it I just freeze on the spot and take it in

Maybe it's the cPTSD though

Btw you said that thing about them dealing with my upset. Nah I don't think I'm upset when I ask for x thing in a pinch like yesterday evening. I just ask like a usual question/request/anything, it's not me being crazy upset, I don't know but I just know I don't feel crazy upset or in a crisis or any of that. It's a simple practical issue to be solved in my mind and then it gets all emotional bc of their response and I don't need it to get emotional when it was a simple practical problem!!

To be clear the issue isn't the money. I'm capable of paying for a taxi, I considered just doing that, but then she said yeah nevermind I can sleep over. But she did the negative face and I was already about to be knocked out -> problem.

Until now we had the "repairs" easily enough, like when she was in a good mood again, and maybe I processed a little too while lying down, so it helped, but it also caused me lost sleep and lost energy and everything too often, while obviously she's not knocked off balance because she doesn't have cPTSD.

(BTW before cPTSD especially before "best friend" sh**, I used to read her negative faces as just fun drama Lol. She really does move on from the bad mood fast and I do too, or I did before cPTSD or when I'm not overloaded now, then I can still move on fast)


I would never try to explain that to her though lol.

I'm just FED UP because I don't need it to get in my way anymore. That simple.

That's the practical side of it, that's simple.

The emotional side of it is a mess, thanks cPTSD, but yeah. I can view it as, ok, yeah she doesn't know what she's doing, she simply doesn't feel like giving all that much, because, whatever, because, blah, ....at that point I have a loss of trust.

And too tired to try and process this again to get over it. No.



OK trying again. If I never ask her for anything again and I just pay for a taxi right away or... actually, AND THEN not even come over again then that's disconnecting from her & family and I'll have a loss of trust and it won't be magically fixed and it will pull me lower when I am trying to recover. It's going to be like the "best friend", karma or whatever. You know all that her giving it on to me. I know that's stupid ideas LOL but yeah. It's totally the shortest explanation

If I ask her again sometimes, I risk the above mess. I don't know how long I can keep it up, my dealin' with it

(Or I can default to how I was. Distant. Not totally avoiding her or family but...Asking and giving extremely rarely, not meeting often. She doesn't want me to be distant anymore, I know that much. Family overall doesn't want me to be distant like I used to be)


It's a fu**in big load of mess either direction.



And I was finally gonna have a good day today. I was all purposeful for doing today, working during the day and NOT at night. Lol that's when I slip over these banana peels and get hit hard !! Thanks karma or whatever it is lol!!

Thanks for your posts. I think I am getting a better understanding of what you are dealing with.

Well no I wouldn't call that a "crisis" but I would imagine that one would look at it from the perspective of our list of what makes for a less risky request.

I think we are groping forward and have not necessarily reached a final draft!

It sounds like a big issue is the unpredictability of your mother's responses. Let say that you ask to stay over ten times. Six times she might be lovely, two times she might be grudging, and two times she might be overtly negative about it, but there seems to be no way to tell beforehand which response you are going to get! And so what seems to be a basic, simple, noncontroversial request suddenly blows up, and because of cPTSD you take the blow up very hard.

How accurate is the that last paragraph?

You have mentioned your sister several times. It sounds like you are saying that your mother devotes more time to her than to you, those 9 hours per week. I wonder if you could describe what thoughts and feelings come up when you think about your mother's relationship with your sister.

Thank you too for reading I'm glad if it helps understand more.

What does a crisis look like in your opinion?


And specifically, what do people think of when someone says they are in a crisis and would like to talk? "Oh god he/she must be so desperate and I'm going to have to spend all my day helping them going deep in their soul and play therapist and get pulled down myself"? (Lol that was just one example)


Also what do people think of when they talk of listening like you mentioned above? I.e. "what she has been doing/proposing lately in regard to listening to/supporting you"

Listening to a vent, to sad thoughts, or something else or all of that...?


I am asking because I did notice some people before thought I was interested in something like "therapy" or like a lot of soul-related deep talks? I never asked what they really had in mind, though.



That's pretty accurate.



Oh she has 4 kids so I don't at all mind any of that. She does need the help.

I don't really have any thoughts or feelings other than a few memories like the one I mentioned about the vacation. I know I didn't feel good at those times with that vacation, like I felt intentionally ignored

But my sister doesn't really have anything to do with my issues, I only asked my mother about it because I wanted some more context about it all, I thought the more context I see the better.

Edit: a few hours later after I first read your post/question, I can think of this too now. As for thoughts/feelings, I mean. I always thought they can share better with each other. More intimately, but I don't actually know. Because my sister will do it with me too, i.e. will talk like that to me too, just not often. She talks a lot more with my mother. My mother I doubt she talks about too many deep things to my sister though, it's probably my sister talking like that, as she's that kind of person. But they do seem to be able to talk longer together than with me. And I felt left out of that a long time ago. But again I don't think this is relevant because I have my own ways to spend enjoyable times with my mother, it's just that for a long time I was distant from everyone, not just from family.

While writing this out, I switched to the positive in the middle of it. Because I've thought about that today, about positive ways to have interactions with my family. Or with anyone else really. It strongly relates to me finding my old/real self again.