[Alive99]

I had more memories come up about the person I thought was/wanted to be my ever best friend.

So in the distant past she did say I was a best friend of hers.

But there are words and then there are actions.

What actions need to be there to call it a real friendship beyond just words? (There could be a verbal aspect of some actions of course but you get what I mean)

That is my question.

I do have my own opinion on this but I'm interested in hearing from others on the forum.



PS: She did tell me about how her absolute best friend when she was younger (she didn't know me yet) betrayed her and how she got mistrustful after that. There was a guy who later became her longest romantic relationship. But before she first got together with the guy, the guy talked with this best friend to get to know more about her. And then her best friend back then, she basically told this guy something like "forget her, she sucks, go out with me instead lol". They'd been friends/best friends for 20 years at that point....

[ArtleyWilkins]

I have a few life-long friends - people that I've literally known since infancy and we've kept in touch our entire lives (we're in our late 50s now). When we were younger, living in the same town, going to the same school or church, we were VERY close. We spent a great deal of time together. We understood each other. We were in each other's weddings, threw each other baby showers, etc. As adults, we no longer live in close proximity, so our friendship is different. We don't actually physically see each other very much anymore, but the love is still there. We do keep track of each other consistently through Facebook, etc., and these were among the first people to personally reach out to me in these last few months when my husband was dying. Even though we aren't "buddy buddy" anymore - as in spending a great deal of time together - I have NO doubt how much they love me, and the feeling is mutual. There is a dedication to the relationship as an ongoing, life connection that makes them true friends - almost family really. When I interact with them, it is sort of like coming home.

I have friends now who are in closer proximity and I physically see these newer friends more often simply because of our mutual activities. I like these people and they are also very supportive, but honestly, I feel a different connection to them, even though I see them more often, than I do to those life-long friends. I have a large support system now, and I find different people serve as friends in different ways, and that's okay. Not everyone has to be a "best" friend.

My work friends support me mostly professionally, but somewhat personally too because my career and my "self" are so interconnected. My church friends support me spiritually and personally in a way that sort of feeds my soul. My choir/chorus friends share an intimate connection in our love of music, an understanding of that art and talent that no other people in my life quite understand.

In other words, I have learned that not every person in my life has to function in the same way or for the same purpose. I can have a variety of friends in my life and find value in each of those relationships, even though they are all so very different.

[Rive.]

Checking up on you, calling you, hanging out with you (provided covid-safe and/or geographical nearness), remembering events or things that matter to you (e.g. a job interview, your birthday, a difficult conversation you had with X), initiating contact with you (rather than only one person contacting another), being emotionally supportive of you. Someone you feel you can reach out to, when you are struggling. Words and/or promises being backed up by actions as, as you noted, words are cheap otherwise.

In short, making their presence felt in your life so you feel comfort and care from them (even if they are at a distance). And so that you don't feel alone.

[downandlonely]

For me, it's about staying in touch even when far apart and wanting to spend time together. Also, I had a crush on my best friend's ex in high school, but never made a move. She still liked him after they broke up, so he was off limits. She was more important to me.

[Alive99]

Thanks for all the replies. I'm asking about all this because I find that after I had to end a "best friendship", I just am ungrounded and like, I make excuses too easily about their behaviour and like I don't *truly* know or remember anymore what a real friendship is supposed to feel like. I know in theory but I don't *feel* it or *believe* it.

It's like they were manipulative about how them not checking up on me, not initiating contact or not being emotionally supportive of me was a "normal" thing to do. And that me wanting that or periodically trying to contact them was "not normal". Them being manipulative about this still has an effect on me. I know that sounds horrible lol, I need to somehow move on from feeling like that and that is why I made this thread

The other reason I'm interested in this thread is that I saw someone else on this forum talking about how she doesn't want someone flaky in a friendship, how she contacted friends to cancel plans when she got in the hospital for an emergency operation. And the way I felt reading that, I realised that since my ending that "friendship", I can't even imagine that anyone can be really like that reliable in reality. It felt like, unreal. But it was good to see that maybe it does exist. It lifted my mood a bit to see that even if I also felt like I was disbelieving that I could trust anyone to be like that, that reliable and attentive or caring. (Other than family members)

It's like I paid attention, I was caring & reliable like that in this "friendship" but somehow because of the manipulations I ended up not being able to believe that that's normal in a friendship. Either from my end or from the other person's end. And if I could truly believe it again then it would help with my mood too and my healing and getting functional again in my life.

[TishaBuv]

It may have something to do with the friends you chose.

I had a best friend (one of several best friends over the course of my life), and the relationship eventually ended. I feel that I made a poor choice in her as a friend. What attracted me to her was her raucous sense of humor. But what went along with that eventually became many bad qualities in her. This was a lifelong friendship, so the transition was slow to the eventual end.

There are other friends that never ‘went bad’. I am still close with another lifelong friend. There are two others whom have lost touch. I don’t think it’s due to anything bad that ever happened or anything I or they did. We never had any friction, but we still lost touch. I feel bad that we lost touch. People change? I’m not sure why I stopped being in friendly contact with them. It feels to me like they chose to stop being in contact with me…but not really sure.

You asked about them being ‘true friendships’. Yes, they were all true friendships. But, this one I spoke about crossed the line of my boundaries time and again. She had no respect for me. She had no respect for anyone. I loved many things about her, but she was a bad choice.

Anyway, I think you may have chosen a friend who ended up being a bad one.

[Alive99]

Originally Posted by TishaBuv

It may have something to do with the friends you chose.

I had a best friend (one of several best friends over the course of my life), and the relationship eventually ended. I feel that I made a poor choice in her as a friend. What attracted me to her was her raucous sense of humor. But what went along with that eventually became many bad qualities in her. This was a lifelong friendship, so the transition was slow to the eventual end.

There are other friends that never ‘went bad’. I am still close with another lifelong friend. There are two others whom have lost touch. I don’t think it’s due to anything bad that ever happened or anything I or they did. We never had any friction, but we still lost touch. I feel bad that we lost touch. People change? I’m not sure why I stopped being in friendly contact with them. It feels to me like they chose to stop being in contact with me…but not really sure.

You asked about them being ‘true friendships’. Yes, they were all true friendships. But, this one I spoke about crossed the line of my boundaries time and again. She had no respect for me. She had no respect for anyone. I loved many things about her, but she was a bad choice.

Anyway, I think you may have chosen a friend who ended up being a bad one.

Thanks, yes that makes sense. I don't really know who she even was, anymore. I have to figure that out again, who she really was.

She didn't just become manipulative (she wasn't for the first few years of the relationship or maybe I just didn't get close enough to her to experience the manipulativeness), but she took me and my feelings for granted, was completely dismissive of my emotions, even had contempt for my feelings and so on. Definitely no respect there YEAH.

I dunno about people changing. Dunno if she changed or if I just got closer to her and saw the bad then, or both, or what. Explanations like "people change" don't reassure me though because that idea just makes me feel like people are fundamentally not reliable.

[TishaBuv]

Originally Posted by Alive99

Thanks, yes that makes sense. I don't really know who she even was, anymore. I have to figure that out again, who she really was.

She didn't just become manipulative (she wasn't for the first few years of the relationship or maybe I just didn't get close enough to her to experience the manipulativeness), but she took me and my feelings for granted, was completely dismissive of my emotions, even had contempt for my feelings and so on. Definitely no respect there YEAH.

I dunno about people changing. Dunno if she changed or if I just got closer to her and saw the bad then, or both, or what. Explanations like "people change" don't reassure me though because that idea just makes me feel like people are fundamentally not reliable.

‘People change’ is probably not accurate. One friend who stopped contact with me said that I reminded her of a time that she was not proud of her own behavior. I was not a part of that behavior. I think it was like a part of a 12 step program for her where they lose contact with anyone who was a part of their lives that contributed to addiction. I feel compassion for her if this was solely the case. With the other friend, I moved away and we both stopped making the effort to keep in touch. I also think it may have had something to do with my father dying, who maybe she felt like he was a father figure for her as she had no father.

Whenever I speak to old friends it seems like no one’s changed at all!

[Alive99]

Originally Posted by TishaBuv

‘People change’ is probably not accurate. One friend who stopped contact with me said that I reminded her of a time that she was not proud of her own behavior. I was not a part of that behavior. I think it was like a part of a 12 step program for her where they lose contact with anyone who was a part of their lives that contributed to addiction. I feel compassion for her if this was solely the case.

That makes sense but I also don't really understand it on a level lol, but that's me. I understand if someone is unable to really come to terms with their past so they need to remove any reminder of it but it's just sad that supposedly close relationships would need to be cut too for that reason.

With the other friend, I moved away and we both stopped making the effort to keep in touch. I also think it may have had something to do with my father dying, who maybe she felt like he was a father figure for her as she had no father.

Yeah with moving that makes sense just fine, unfortunately.

Whenever I speak to old friends it seems like no one’s changed at all!

Yeah I guess it's just that not many relationships are truly durable but they do exist, just have to be able to pick from a variety of relationships to find the lasting ones.

I think I want to be able to predict when it's going to be durable like that but I understand that's hard.... just would like to see it as clearly as possible though, hence this thread

[TishaBuv]

Does a friendship need to endure forever to have been a true and satisfying one?

I think, with those two former best friends I mentioned, I felt that when we moved away from each other, the friendships fizzled out naturally. It was the days before social media, so you had to pick up a phone, talk, make plans, to maintain a friendship. I think I felt it was natural that we just grew apart. I felt they were true friendships. I was inseparable best friends with those two, and we never had any arguments.

I do hear you saying, though, in your experience you had a major fallout out with this friend over some issue.

[MickeyCheeky]

So Sorry you're going through this! Please do not give up! i agree with the other wise and wonderful posters that they need to show basic empathy and that they do truly care for you. It is not easy i think to truly understand if someone is your friend at least in the beginning but i think with time it may get easier. Of course i don't have much experience with true friendships so take that with a grain of salt. i also consider myself a terrible friend lol. i think this is something that may require some experience as Well. If you don't feel like your current friends aren't treating you with respect the i believe it is your right to speak up about that. Hopefully things will improve really soon for everyone. Sending many safe, warm hugs to BOTH you, @Alive99, your Family, your Family, your Friends and ALL of your Loved Ones! Keep fighting and keep rocking NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS, OK?!

[RoxanneToto]

I think - based on my own experience - you’re probably right when you mentioned maybe you weren’t close enough to this person at first to notice her manipulations. They’re not always easy to spot, anyway.
I’m not saying my ex best friend was manipulative, but... she was kind of self centred, and I just never truly saw it until after she ghosted me during lockdown, when our mutual friend (by then also not friends with my ex friend/her mum) filled me in on a lot of things I hadn’t known about or realised, myself. I did consider us to be close, actually, until lockdown, though I had started feeling uncomfortable around her before the last time I saw her.

I think once people get to a certain point in life, most of them don’t change drastically unless they want to, or something out of their control happens to make them change in some way. Certainly, none of the people I’ve bumped into from high school seemed any different.

[Alive99]

Originally Posted by TishaBuv

Does a friendship need to endure forever to have been a true and satisfying one?

Well I mean not like some traumatic or otherwise horrible ending to it, yeah.

I think, with those two former best friends I mentioned, I felt that when we moved away from each other, the friendships fizzled out naturally. It was the days before social media, so you had to pick up a phone, talk, make plans, to maintain a friendship. I think I felt it was natural that we just grew apart. I felt they were true friendships. I was inseparable best friends with those two, and we never had any arguments.

I do hear you saying, though, in your experience you had a major fallout out with this friend over some issue.

Yes. The problem is it wasn't just one single major fallout. I put myself in harm's way for 4 long years. That's how long I supported her and was there for her and she was doing a lot of those toxic negative things. But I took the burden ok until I got cPTSD from some other sh** in life and then I no longer could.

[Alive99]

Originally Posted by MickeyCheeky

So Sorry you're going through this! Please do not give up! i agree with the other wise and wonderful posters that they need to show basic empathy and that they do truly care for you. It is not easy i think to truly understand if someone is your friend at least in the beginning but i think with time it may get easier. Of course i don't have much experience with true friendships so take that with a grain of salt. i also consider myself a terrible friend lol. i think this is something that may require some experience as Well. If you don't feel like your current friends aren't treating you with respect the i believe it is your right to speak up about that. Hopefully things will improve really soon for everyone. Sending many safe, warm hugs to BOTH you, @Alive99, your Family, your Family, your Friends and ALL of your Loved Ones! Keep fighting and keep rocking NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS, OK?!

Thanks! You are right that it can take a while to see if it's really a relationship....it took me years to see it. Can I ask, why do you consider yourself a terrible friend?

Originally Posted by RoxanneToto

I think - based on my own experience - you’re probably right when you mentioned maybe you weren’t close enough to this person at first to notice her manipulations. They’re not always easy to spot, anyway.

Hm well I felt close to them, and I actually did notice all the sh** things she said and did but somehow I ignored that they spelled trouble. I don't know why, I really just never met anyone like that before that I would be close to so that must be why I didn't recognise it was a problem.

I’m not saying my ex best friend was manipulative, but... she was kind of self centred, and I just never truly saw it until after she ghosted me during lockdown, when our mutual friend (by then also not friends with my ex friend/her mum) filled me in on a lot of things I hadn’t known about or realised, myself. I did consider us to be close, actually, until lockdown, though I had started feeling uncomfortable around her before the last time I saw her.

Yeah, self-centred is also a good word for it all. Plus exploitative.

I think once people get to a certain point in life, most of them don’t change drastically unless they want to, or something out of their control happens to make them change in some way. Certainly, none of the people I’ve bumped into from high school seemed any different.

Right well, I think there was something out of her control there but that's not an excuse. Because she didn't seek professional help for some reason....which would've been her responsibility otherwise

[TishaBuv]

Originally Posted by Alive99

Well I mean not like some traumatic or otherwise horrible ending to it, yeah.





Yes. The problem is it wasn't just one single major fallout. I put myself in harm's way for 4 long years. That's how long I supported her and was there for her and she was doing a lot of those toxic negative things. But I took the burden ok until I got cPTSD from some other sh** in life and then I no longer could.

I’m sorry it ended in trauma for you. I see why you need to heal from that.

Over 4 years, you saw the negative things adding up, then kaboom, the traumatic ending.

With my one friend who is now out of my life (It’s been 4 years), it was a build-up of negative interactions leading to the eventual end, too. It just took 40 years! I am willing to put up with a whole lot. There were good times, it would build to her having negative, annoying behavior toward me, I would tell her I needed a break from her. We would start up again, the same pattern happened again. Finally, the negative, annoying behavior from her took over much greater than the good times. I could tell you stories you wouldn’t believe! Looking back, I have to question myself as to what attracted me to the good times in her so much I was willing to put up with the negative behavior. TBH, the good times weren’t healthy, either. That’s on me. I found her obnoxious, boisterous humor hilarious. I forgive myself for that seeing as we were young teens when we met. I was immature. But, as we aged, it wasn’t funny. She went beyond inappropriate behavior when in public. It was funny as a teen, but not as a middle-aged woman. I grew up. She didn’t. She got worse.

But our friendship died with a whimper, not a traumatic ending. We simply stopped speaking. She said she ‘can’t walk on eggshells with me’. (As though I was exceptionally hypersensitive! In her case this was a ridiculous understatement because her behavior was immensely over the top.). I agreed, that was an honest statement. I could not tolerate her obnoxious behavior and being humiliated in public by her. So, we agreed it was best to end a lifelong friendship.

Did your friend do something outrageous to traumatize you? You mentioned taking advantage of you for money. You don’t have to say, if you feel it’s too personal. I’m just curious if they were totally unscrupulous and just being a user. Then that is not a friend.

This former friend of mine, began using me and our other friend for money and never paying it back toward the end, too. I stopped giving her any. This made her very mean and probably was the cause of her going off on me like she did at the end, which caused me to take the final break from her. She became very emotionally abusive. (Probably because she was mad I stopped letting her use me)

[Alive99]

Originally Posted by TishaBuv

I’m sorry it ended in trauma for you. I see why you need to heal from that.

Over 4 years, you saw the negative things adding up, then kaboom, the traumatic ending.

Thank you. Yes that was exactly like that.

With my one friend who is now out of my life (It’s been 4 years), it was a build-up of negative interactions leading to the eventual end, too. It just took 40 years! I am willing to put up with a whole lot. There were good times, it would build to her having negative, annoying behavior toward me, I would tell her I needed a break from her. We would start up again, the same pattern happened again.

The sad thing in my case was that I didn't even feel I needed a break. I just wanted to fix things with her. And I was never annoyed by her behaviours. Or anything like that. But I'm not truly annoyed by a lot in people anyway. I'm pretty "zen" in that sense.

Finally, the negative, annoying behavior from her took over much greater than the good times. I could tell you stories you wouldn’t believe! Looking back, I have to question myself as to what attracted me to the good times in her so much I was willing to put up with the negative behavior.

I'm still trying to figure that out myself lol. I.e what attracted me to the good times so much

TBH, the good times weren’t healthy, either. That’s on me. I found her obnoxious, boisterous humor hilarious. I forgive myself for that seeing as we were young teens when we met. I was immature. But, as we aged, it wasn’t funny. She went beyond inappropriate behavior when in public. It was funny as a teen, but not as a middle-aged woman. I grew up. She didn’t. She got worse.

What did she do in public?

Did your friend do something outrageous to traumatize you? You mentioned taking advantage of you for money. You don’t have to say, if you feel it’s too personal. I’m just curious if they were totally unscrupulous and just being a user. Then that is not a friend.

Yes and that was so strange to me because I thought the first few years of the friendship was good, nothing like that. Then she somehow got this user side coming out, yeah. And yes, an outrageous thing eventually..... She tried to hurt me as deep as possible through the attachment she always saw I had to her. Truly as deep as possible. The anger that she had that led her to try and do so was extreme. I've never seen her have extreme anger like that before. I truly just don't understand how that's possible. Like she became... Hyde, right?

Where do those things come from in a person ????

I bet I sound naive with this question but.......

This former friend of mine, began using me and our other friend for money and never paying it back toward the end, too. I stopped giving her any. This made her very mean and probably was the cause of her going off on me like she did at the end, which caused me to take the final break from her. She became very emotionally abusive. (Probably because she was mad I stopped letting her use me)

Yeah. This sounds familiar.

But I don't understand where her extreme anger came from. I basically told her I'm done with the relationship, as she blurted out something so I understood she really did try to use me (I already suspected that but she was good at hiding it). So I told her (in a text) that she's been "caught in the red", so I'm done, and told her to only seek me out if her old self is back (if I ever actually knew her?), or if she's in a crisis, like, suicidal, she can contact me for immediate help.


Before that farewell text, I also wrote an angry email about how I see now that she was using me. She wrote some toxic emails in response. Having read those emails, it was too much and I let her know I was not going to read more emails from her (and I never responded to any more emails after that, yeah).

Then I sent the farewell text. (No response to that from her or maybe in some toxic email, I cannot remember anymore)


But then a couple of days passed and I felt sad and wanted to share the sadness with her lol I don't know why, I just liked the old good (?) times, but then I realised I couldn't trust her and couldn't share how I felt. So instead I just texted her that I really so was not okay with how she caused me pain but it still shared emotion unfortunately (emotion other than anger, unfortunately... i.e. pain. Don't ask why I shared like that. I did also say she should be ashamed for her behaviour).

And then she displayed the extreme anger in return. I don't know, was it because she was mad that she can't use me anymore? I found it interesting, where you said that your friend tried to use you for money and got mad and very mean and emotionally abusive when you stopped giving her any money.

She really did try and deny that there was anything wrong in our relationship, she really tried hard to keep the relationship, and tried extremely hard to keep it on HER OWN TERMS.

And when I was no longer game for that is when she became completely mean like I never saw her before and extremely toxic plus that extreme anger.

Another thing. I had a friend in middle school. Well, idk if a friend. I would hang out with her a lot and she was fun but I could not take her/the friendship truly seriously on a level. Let's just say we had some mismatches so I couldn't. She wasn't very intelligent either. Etc. But she was really fun and stuff, and we kept in contact a bit here and there after middle school ended. Then much later, we were in our mid-twenties, she contacted me again, this time for money...... not a lot of money but she had a horrible attitude to it, to handling money, and to paying back loans. Lol. I was okay with parting with some of my money for good, I knew it was a risk. I would hang out with her a little again and it was totally fun again. She even got clingy at one point, sorta,.... she didn't just want to meet because of the money at that point - or she hid that well but I don't think she just wanted the money really. I completely forgot how clingy she got temporarily. I just accidentally found an old text not long ago where she expressed the clinginess. Like she really wanted to meet me and was upset that we didn't meet on a particular day or something.

Anyway I am saying all this because the friendship pretty much ended with her a few months later.... She kept asking for money (not just from me. Her mother also kept asking people for money. Long story, it was horrible. In a nutshell... They sold their house when her father was still alive. Father died soon. Mother never tried to find a job for real afterwards, her daughter, i.e my friend was going to college and didn't really earn a living either. They tried to live beyond their means even after they were pretty much running out of the money they had from the sale of the house. So they got used to begging for money from everyone they could ask.....). That was okay by me, really as long as it wasn't a horribly big amount. What wasn't okay was the attitude, they didn't apologise (neither she, nor her mother!!) when they failed to pay me back on time. Then I started feeling like she only sought me out if she wanted money. No longer clingy Iguess...? Dunno if she was too preoccupied with the lack of money, or she plain just didn't care anymore. Either way, I forgot that she used to want to spend time with me without the money stuff too. It just seemed like she always sought me out ONLY when she needed the money. I could see it easily, she was a bit manipulative but too transparent with it, I always saw through it (OK, as a young teen, I didn't, but I wasn't a teen anymore). And then, eventually, it was something like Christmas. She wanted some money for Christmas too...okay. I was annoyed by then (ha ha, ok, sometimes I can be annoyed too), by the attitude and everything. So I said ok I can give this little amount, she and her mother both came over to the condo building where I lived, I went downstairs to meet them, I did give her/them the little money. Then they proceeded to ask me for more. They wanted to go back home by taxi or something, I think. There was public transport available, or even if not (I don't remember how late it was in the evening), it was a 20-minute walk back to their rented apartment. I did not want to give them extra money for the taxi or whatever they wanted it for. They went on trying to pressure me like horrible, I don't even remember what they said or did, but it was so horrible like never, so I just almost literally ran back into the building in the end when it just felt TOO MUCH. Toxic. Yeah I hadn't seen her like that before it either! We've never talked since then. Maybe she sent an email much later asking me for help for some college exam (she'd send those emails sometimes lol). I didn't respond to that (I never responded to any such emails anyway) and then she must have finished college or left college as there were no more emails ever again.

But yeah the way she and her mother - but especially she, she was better at emotional manipulation than her mother - turned so toxic suddenly.... Weird.

(And yes, I know, it's sad too, that they let themselves get that low. Begging for money like that. Instead of mother getting a job again. Well if it had just been begging... but it was some toxic thing they were doing that Christmas.)


And now comes the real point. If you read this far.....so yeah, I always had this feeling that this "best friend" was a "glorified edition" of this other girl. Much more intelligent, but ofcourse also way more refined with manipulation. Money issues for her too. Huh. I don't know what that means. I just really don't know who she was anymore.

If you (or anyone else) got any thoughts, I am always interested.

[TishaBuv]

When we first met was in 8th grade (age 13). She was the class clown. She was always loud and obnoxious, but I thought she was hilarious. The other kids didn’t like her. I became her friend because she was fun. She was like an old person in a young person’s body because she had elderly parents and they lived in an elderly building. Have you heard of the comic Don Rickles? Imagine a 13 y/o but with his comedy routine!

But as we grew up she didn’t mature. Instead she got really out there and not funny. I’m ashamed to tell many things here. One thing she did I couldn’t stand at the end was she’d harass waiters when we were in restaurants. She’d joke with them but in a very insulting way. She said shocking things. She would even harass people at other tables! Then she said she was ‘walking on eggshells’ with me because I needed her to act like a polite adult, lol.

She had developed a gambling problem in later years. That’s why she started asking her friends for money. She’d never pay it back. I stopped giving it to her because I didn’t want to enable her addiction. Yeah, she really was a user in the later years.

One last time with her at a restaurant with my youngest son, she went off on me in a barrage of insults (unprovoked, I was even paying for dinner!). She was purposely trying to make me look bad to my son.

Why do you think your friend became so enraged?

[Alive99]

Originally Posted by TishaBuv

When we first met was in 8th grade (age 13). She was the class clown. She was always loud and obnoxious, but I thought she was hilarious. The other kids didn’t like her. I became her friend because she was fun. She was like an old person in a young person’s body because she had elderly parents and they lived in an elderly building. Have you heard of the comic Don Rickles? Imagine a 13 y/o but with his comedy routine!

But as we grew up she didn’t mature. Instead she got really out there and not funny. I’m ashamed to tell many things here. One thing she did I couldn’t stand at the end was she’d harass waiters when we were in restaurants. She’d joke with them but in a very insulting way. She said shocking things. She would even harass people at other tables! Then she said she was ‘walking on eggshells’ with me because I needed her to act like a polite adult, lol.

She had developed a gambling problem in later years. That’s why she started asking her friends for money. She’d never pay it back. I stopped giving it to her because I didn’t want to enable her addiction. Yeah, she really was a user in the later years.

One last time with her at a restaurant with my youngest son, she went off on me in a barrage of insults (unprovoked, I was even paying for dinner!). She was purposely trying to make me look bad to my son.

Ahh I see. I am sorry about all that.... Makes sense too, I understand what the problem was with her. I was thinking about this, in a close & long-term relationship we need to be able to take each other's worst sides. Because we are going to inevitably show the worst side sooner or later lol. And at the same time, you need to be able to keep up a level of psychological growth, psychological maturity so your worst side doesn't get worse later. Because then eventually no one will be able to deal with that worst side of you (general you).

I think that happened there with your friend. Some people may have been able to take her bad side more easily, but at one point if it gets bad enough, no one will be able to anymore.

That is maybe just based on my experience, because that is exactly how it was with my "friend". I was the person who was able to deal with her bad side the most (of all people who've known her). But she didn't get better, but worse instead, so I had to pay through the nose for it in the end. Again, I learned a lot from it of course. Not much else to say about that.

Why do you think your friend became so enraged?

Yeah that is the part I don't totally understand. These stories of these two "friends" like I described it, did it give you any ideas about that?

I reread my own post after describing these stories. I realised then that I forgot to say more on how it was sad that that old middle-school friend or "friend" got in this crap situation and wasn't even fully responsible for it because it was her mother essentially who dragged her into it. Her mother should've been a role model for her, but instead she pulled her into this crap way of living life. It must be really humiliating having to go around regularly and ask everyone you know for money and beg and everything.

Though she&her mother didn't beg me for it, they were doing something else....something toxic. I am not sure how to verbalise that. Maybe guilt trippy stuff. Some kind of emotional blackmail. I don't know more specifically. It was too long ago, I don't remember what exactly they were saying. It doesn't even matter, maybe if I get to see and notice it about more people doing that (not doing it to me lol, hopefully I can just be an observer of such events) I'll figure it out eventually.

I am trying to put a name on what the "best friend" did too, other than this generic phrasing "emotional blackmail", "toxic stuff" and things like that. I know it was all that but I want to find pretty specific labels for the emotional stuff involved. Because that helps me process, recognise and accept what happened.

[Alive99]

Oh more on the middle school "friend".... I really wish I would've been able to recognise back then what to say to her about all that mess. Something about how she is in "bad company" (her mother not doing her responsibility) and needs to find help other than just living in the moment and getting money to get through every day. But see I can't word it well even now, let alone back then. But yeah I never hated her or blamed her or anything like that. She was kind of naive even if a bit manipulative. She was really just young (I was too) and lost. That is how the "best friend" was too. She actually kept saying she feels lost. Except she wasn't young anymore when it all became toxic and she did get more manipulative and exploitative than the middle school "friend".



The "best friend" I think did end up behaving really hateful and callous by the end, yeah. Not just to me. I've recalled more bits of memories and put them together like I never did before and felt shocked this morning. The memories came up suddenly this morning. (It's what I have to deal with every day. I am used to it now. Stoic and all, lol.) It was about a mutual acquaintance. I realised, putting memories together, that he was exploited really bad too, by the "best friend". I recognised this years ago but I did not take it in fully like I did now. I didn't put together as many bits of memories about it before.

He was pulled in just like I was pulled in by her. I wrote so much more on this, on how many caring guys she exploited, but I deleted it. It's a sad, horrible story and I don't understand why I ignored this part of the story before.

It's sad and pathetic because the guys she couldn't exploit, she kept hoping about getting something from them, staying around them like totally naive or something. Dunno, it's not something I care to analyse.


I was the only person she was willing to see IRL. She did even go to a movie once or twice with me. All the other times though.... unlike a long time ago when we were just normal friends meeting....., all the other times it was me bringing something to her that she could use (money as well, various other things too). I was suspicious of that but she always seemed happy to see me and at the end of these meets she always said "let's talk more", and we would chat or something while I was going home. I will never know for sure if she really felt like doing that but probably not. Because near the end she blurted out once that she "hated talking".

Nevermind that now. So the young guy I was thinking of above.


He was a young guy, a depressed guy, he did work but had an average salary and lived with a toxic family. He ended up feeling some kind of strong love for her even though they never met - she did meet me IRL a lot, but she didn't ever meet him even when he begged to meet.

He was obsessed about helping her somehow. He bought her an iphone, he bought her a laptop !!!!, for a while he paid part of her public transport pass (I did too), he contributed to her school fees (I did too). He tried to tell her nice things, encourage her, but she decided he was just bull****ting her when he was encouraging like that and she talked really callous about him to me. To him directly too.

When I remembered this morning that he bought a whole laptop for her (years ago laptops weren't that cheap here in this country and he really had a very average salary!) and how she said things to me about how he's bull****ting her when he was just trying to encourage her and was trying to find options for her to help her, I was just done. It was too much and too shocking. Who the fu** treats people like that?

She must have thought the same way about me..... That I was "just" bull****ting her. I know for a fact that she did, actually.

I have not asked him if he's okay. I tried to contact him before but he didn't respond.

[Alive99]

What I don't understand is what made her hateful. She was callous before too here and there. But hateful?