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Default Jul 17, 2021 at 12:01 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by RDMercer View Post
Oh my gosh, yes, I'm familiar with codependency.

I've done what had to be done for a long time. I'm not looking to take on more.

Well since someone else mentioned the d word, is that an option you’re looking at?
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Default Jul 17, 2021 at 12:13 PM
  #22
Maybe you would want to print out those words and keep them in some secure place? But if not, at a minimum memorize these remarkable words:

You have more emotional control and you're more of a man than anyone I know.
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Default Jul 17, 2021 at 07:29 PM
  #23
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Oh my gosh, yes, I'm familiar with codependency.

I've done what had to be done for a long time. I'm not looking to take on more.
You must be getting something out of this relationship, because otherwise you wouldn't be in it.

Instead of "venting" to your therapist, why aren't you working on how to make your life better for YOURSELF and how to create a life where your needs are met in a relationship? Meaning how to extricate yourself from this situation and work on yourself so next time you can find a partner who will give you what you need instead of what you have now, which is nothing? Your wife has clearly said she isn't going to give you what you want. Do you live the rest of your life like this or do you take some action.
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Default Jul 18, 2021 at 07:44 AM
  #24
She's done a lot for me, in the "life" picture.

She gave me children, she supported me in changing careers, she supported me financially to return to school. We built our lives together. She gave herself to being a part of my huge extended family. She was good to my parents, and open to them.

When I say, I can see her through the mental illness and through the pain, this is what I mean. She was my partner.

Loyalty matters. The thing is, it could have been me who got sick, lost loved ones, lost my career, and crashed into a depression. That's what it means to bind two lives together.

Why not leave? Because of all this. Because of finances. Because she wouldn't have left me if it had been reversed. Because I still get glimpses of her, and I still want that in my life. Because she was a deeply profoundly good and open person at one time and life beat her up. Because God knows I made mistakes during her illness and depression where I really failed to do or say the right thing at key moments.
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Default Jul 18, 2021 at 07:51 AM
  #25
Okay, so there are your "whys." I would work with your therapist on accepting what your wife is willing to give and to stop asking for more. Also on finding ways to validate yourself or get validation from an activity or something other than a romantic relationship. It won't be coming from her.
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Default Jul 18, 2021 at 09:34 AM
  #26
You're not wrong.

Getting validation through therapy is kind of like paid emotional prostitution. You get, from therapy, what you aren't getting in your marriage. "My therapist says I'm a good person. My therapist helps me feel good about myself" Similarly, getting validation from friends co-workers, etc. is problematic, because people see how much I do, and say things like "she's lucky she has you". It tends to drive the point home that things are one-sided. This is what I was referring to when I said therapy can reinforce the negative, and even external validation on this topic can reinforce the negative. Even having the kids see this stuff is hard to manage. It reinforces, to me, how one-sided things are. It's nice to be validated by my kids. BUT, them actually seeing and validating, creates a "dad vs mom" situation. Them feeling negatively towards their mom is not what a chronically ill depressed person needs. It hinders forward movement.

This is really hard, and has been for a long time, and when I say I feel stuck, I really feel stuck.

What gets me with all this too, is that my wife has told me for years now, that I am emotionally unintelligent (exact words). That is such a punch in the gut. I try really, really hard to be emotionally aware for me, for her, and for the kids.

If you haven't lived with someone who is at their emotional bottom, it's hard to explain. I have said self affirming things during times she was angry at me, things like, "I'm a hard worker, and a good and committed father. I'm a good person." That becomes a fight topic, because me saying that implies that I think she isn't those things. Even self affirming comments become an issue, and are regarded as either excessive defensiveness or a personal attack.

One thing I will say for myself, I'm not emotionally unintelligent. I'm not emotionally unaware. I'm human, and the times I got things wrong it was never intentional. I have never played emotional games. I have never tried to injure anyone, ever.

Last I'm posting on this one for a while.

Thanks everyone for the support. Thank you for the insight. Thank you for letting me talk and vent and rationalize. If you were here I'd hug all of you.


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Default Jul 18, 2021 at 10:20 AM
  #27
I know you're not going to post anymore, but if you're still reading the thread and return to it, I must say, you're a total saint. I would not put up with the ******** you're putting up with. Your pure devotion is evident, even through the insults, the neglect, the repetitive breaking up, the selfishness and her mental illness. I personally could not do it, and I would have walked away. Maybe I'm selfish myself, but I tend to think of it more as self preservation. You have not really been happy in this marriage for a long time. Or, things improve, then they go back downhill again. Such a roller coaster.

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Default Jul 18, 2021 at 10:30 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by RDMercer View Post
You're not wrong.

Getting validation through therapy is kind of like paid emotional prostitution. You get, from therapy, what you aren't getting in your marriage. "My therapist says I'm a good person. My therapist helps me feel good about myself" Similarly, getting validation from friends co-workers, etc. is problematic, because people see how much I do, and say things like "she's lucky she has you". It tends to drive the point home that things are one-sided. This is what I was referring to when I said therapy can reinforce the negative, and even external validation on this topic can reinforce the negative. Even having the kids see this stuff is hard to manage. It reinforces, to me, how one-sided things are. It's nice to be validated by my kids. BUT, them actually seeing and validating, creates a "dad vs mom" situation. Them feeling negatively towards their mom is not what a chronically ill depressed person needs. It hinders forward movement.

This is really hard, and has been for a long time, and when I say I feel stuck, I really feel stuck.

What gets me with all this too, is that my wife has told me for years now, that I am emotionally unintelligent (exact words). That is such a punch in the gut. I try really, really hard to be emotionally aware for me, for her, and for the kids.

If you haven't lived with someone who is at their emotional bottom, it's hard to explain. I have said self affirming things during times she was angry at me, things like, "I'm a hard worker, and a good and committed father. I'm a good person." That becomes a fight topic, because me saying that implies that I think she isn't those things. Even self affirming comments become an issue, and are regarded as either excessive defensiveness or a personal attack.

One thing I will say for myself, I'm not emotionally unintelligent. I'm not emotionally unaware. I'm human, and the times I got things wrong it was never intentional. I have never played emotional games. I have never tried to injure anyone, ever.

Last I'm posting on this one for a while.

Thanks everyone for the support. Thank you for the insight. Thank you for letting me talk and vent and rationalize. If you were here I'd hug all of you.


RDM

We didn’t say what you wanted to hear.

Seeing a therapist is not seeing an emotional prostitute.

You’re in an abusive marriage, I know you don’t want to hear that.

I hope you’re able to at least change your view on therapy.
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Default Jul 18, 2021 at 10:45 AM
  #29
@leomama, I cannot resist. What makes you think it's an abusive relationship?

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Default Jul 18, 2021 at 11:03 AM
  #30
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Them feeling negatively towards their mom is not what a chronically ill depressed person needs. It hinders forward movement.
This comment sort of epitomizes you, looking at each situation from the perspective of your beloved one.

You could remind the kids that mom is ill. Not that they don't know this. But when they say that you are better than mom, you can remind them that mom is ill atm and this is why she can get difficult. Of course your answers would be different, age-appropriate, for each child.

A good therapist won't say just anything, but rather will help you see good things about you that you might be missing or underestimating.

I have actually lived with someone who was exceedingly difficult. I'm very familiar with someone seizing on what one says and making it the basis for a further enraged attack. When you say that you are a good person, for example, it contradicts the raging, irrational thoughts that are overwhelming her in that moment. Being contradicted fuels her rage.

It's hard to know what to do with her rage. I wonder if you know of the "grey rock" tactic. You could Google it, it means being unresponsive so as to give little for her to attack in her rage and also, importantly, to help minimize instances of rage.

If helpful, be sure to reflect daily for a minute or two on what you have actually done and are still doing in your family.

I think of you with the utmost respect and admiration.
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Default Jul 18, 2021 at 02:17 PM
  #31
Do you really think that people see a therapist because they aren’t getting something in their marriage? This is a very unusual and somewhat troublesome notion of therapy.

I also wonder what kind of severe mental illness does she have that enables her to do nothing for the family and allows her to act in anger and rage and people should put up with it. What does she have that she can’t control her words and behaviors? If her illness is so severe that she is unable to properly function (psychosis?) it could be at least somewhat and often fully controlled by proper combination of medications. Is she not on meds?
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Default Jul 18, 2021 at 03:12 PM
  #32
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@leomama, I cannot resist. What makes you think it's an abusive relationship?

So I’m going to try to not break the rules here.

I don’t think the op wants to hear what I have to say so I’m not going to discuss his story.

I can speak from my own experience , when I was arguing with my ex husband , I had one person supporting my decision to divorce: my father . Most people will say it’s bad to “break up a family” but I disagree. Sometimes it’s better not to argue in front of a child.

In terms of the grey rock thing, my last relationship was with someone who showed signs of borderline personality disorder. Turns out they had aspergers instead. At any rate I could not engage in the grey rock technique.
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Default Jul 18, 2021 at 03:57 PM
  #33
Hi,

OP here!

OP doesn't mind if you discuss him, his story, or your own!

OP is pretty open.

Also, she lost everything. If you haven't been there, or seen it, it's devastating. How many of our friends would stay around if we were chronically ill, and in desperate nerve pain all the time? Hers didn't stay around. Those that did reached their limit of asking "how are you" and reach their limit of being supportive after a year or two.

Work and former colleagues disappear. Because so much of your pain and illness are invisible, they may or may not treat you like you were some kind of weirdo who just quit coming into work. Once short term medical benefits dry up, long term is a real fight, and one that can be hard to win. Especially when a discrete diagnosis is no where to be found.

Her family were never that good to her. She honestly grew up in a dysfunctional home, one where she was NOT the favorite. Once the additional challenge of her health emerged, her side of the family bailed on us, fully.... Including on the kids/grandkids.

My side stayed involved, sort of. They were good about some things, not good about some things. But my dad became hyper religious and righteous, and insistent with my wife. She was dealing with enough, and he wouldn't back off. I mean.... He pushed for about 3 years with her being respectful and asking him to ease up before she finally said "enough". I told him repeatedly prior to that, very clearly, but he didn't respect it. It was his calling to do this, you see.. So, we are over a year now with limited contact on my side.

Pain and isolation can produce some pretty damn bad depression. She has verbally torn me apart, and later when I've confronted her, she has said she didn't remember any of it. I've seen that before, someone with depressions with no memory of outbursts. She doesn't recognize the degree, duration, or severity of things she has said.

Psychosis... No. Severe sleep deprivation, yes. I've seen her writhe in pain for up to 5 days and not sleep. If you have ever witnessed sleep deprivation, it will drive you close to madness.

This is one of the two possibilities we are looking at now. Read the case presentation. Picture this for almost 10 years of your life.
Celiac Artery Compression Syndrome in a Middle-age Woman Treated Laparoscopically

Therapist as emotional prostitute.... Said for some shock and humor effects. But, isn't it nice to hear someone say the things you don't get to hear anywhere else? Like, you're a good person, who is trying hard. Again, going there because my wife was verbally shredding me, after a year, the therapist said, "You know this is abuse. You've just accepted it because of her illness." Yes.

The thing is, I am kind of her safe place to vent and unleash, I think. She hates herself, and her life, and any push back from me creates the fight or flight response in her... Mostly flight (divorce).

There's been a lot of emasculating comments, and a lot of comments that cut down my personal strength and my intelligence. Those hurt.
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Default Jul 18, 2021 at 04:08 PM
  #34
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Hi,

OP here!

OP doesn't mind if you discuss him, his story, or your own!

OP is pretty open.

Also, she lost everything. If you haven't been there, or seen it, it's devastating. How many of our friends would stay around if we were chronically ill, and in desperate nerve pain all the time? Hers didn't stay around. Those that did reached their limit of asking "how are you" and reach their limit of being supportive after a year or two.

Work and former colleagues disappear. Because so much of your pain and illness are invisible, they may or may not treat you like you were some kind of weirdo who just quit coming into work. Once short term medical benefits dry up, long term is a real fight, and one that can be hard to win. Especially when a discrete diagnosis is no where to be found.

Her family were never that good to her. She honestly grew up in a dysfunctional home, one where she was NOT the favorite. Once the additional challenge of her health emerged, her side of the family bailed on us, fully.... Including on the kids/grandkids.

My side stayed involved, sort of. They were good about some things, not good about some things. But my dad became hyper religious and righteous, and insistent with my wife. She was dealing with enough, and he wouldn't back off. I mean.... He pushed for about 3 years with her being respectful and asking him to ease up before she finally said "enough". I told him repeatedly prior to that, very clearly, but he didn't respect it. It was his calling to do this, you see.. So, we are over a year now with limited contact on my side.

Pain and isolation can produce some pretty damn bad depression. She has verbally torn me apart, and later when I've confronted her, she has said she didn't remember any of it. I've seen that before, someone with depressions with no memory of outbursts. She doesn't recognize the degree, duration, or severity of things she has said.

Psychosis... No. Severe sleep deprivation, yes. I've seen her writhe in pain for up to 5 days and not sleep. If you have ever witnessed sleep deprivation, it will drive you close to madness.

This is one of the two possibilities we are looking at now. Read the case presentation. Picture this for almost 10 years of your life.
Celiac Artery Compression Syndrome in a Middle-age Woman Treated Laparoscopically

Therapist as emotional prostitute.... Said for some shock and humor effects. But, isn't it nice to hear someone say the things you don't get to hear anywhere else? Like, you're a good person, who is trying hard. Again, going there because my wife was verbally shredding me, after a year, the therapist said, "You know this is abuse. You've just accepted it because of her illness." Yes.

The thing is, I am kind of her safe place to vent and unleash, I think. She hates herself, and her life, and any push back from me creates the fight or flight response in her... Mostly flight (divorce).

There's been a lot of emasculating comments, and a lot of comments that cut down my personal strength and my intelligence. Those hurt.

Hi rd, just trying to follow the rules here, which state we can’t discuss someone in third person.

I don’t believe it’s my place to tell you to divorce or not, and you don’t seem interested in that.

I’m not really sure what you came here to hear. Yours is a difficult marriage, for sure. It looks like you are looking for ways to stay in it in which case I would second the grey rock technique. I learned a lot from the bpd family site. You may find that useful too. I know your wife does not have bpd.

As an anecdote, I often wish I had been able to stay in my alcoholic marriage, then I ended up meeting someone who was even more of an alcoholic then my ex husband. He actually got me to start drinking again. I’ve since stopped.

I would say at the end of the day can you live with yourself. If the answer is yes, then you are safe. If the answer is no, then I would say that’s what needs to be looked at.
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Default Jul 18, 2021 at 04:41 PM
  #35
Yes, I can live with myself. Even if this all falls apart, I can live with myself.

If we stay together, that may be harder. I'm struggling to accept a LOT of things. I feel I've been pushed to my limits. I'm finding it very hard to look past stuff.

What am I looking for? A chance to talk openly with mature people about something that really sucks. People where anything I say it doesn't come back on her personally, like if I talked in person to someone we know.

I also don't want to look like the self professed hero to any friends or family.

Sometimes you need a bit of assurance, you know?

Just trying to be real, and be solid.

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Default Jul 18, 2021 at 04:48 PM
  #36
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Yes, I can live with myself. Even if this all falls apart, I can live with myself.

If we stay together, that may be harder. I'm struggling to accept a LOT of things. I feel I've been pushed to my limits. I'm finding it very hard to look past stuff.

What am I looking for? A chance to talk openly with mature people about something that really sucks. People where anything I say it doesn't come back on her personally, like if I talked in person to someone we know.

I also don't want to look like the self professed hero to any friends or family.

Sometimes you need a bit of assurance, you know?

Just trying to be real, and be solid.

RDM

I meant can you live with yourself in terms of how she is treating you, not so much if things fell apart. Incidentally that is a book that was recommended to me when I was going through a divorce, when things fall apart, by pema chodron.

I understand the need for anonymity. In a 12 step program for family and friends of alcoholics it is said we do not discuss the alcoholic.

I will also tell you as a sponsor told me, I’m interested in hearing about you , not about the other person. That is something I struggle with.

I gave up the hero role, and in my case, my mom actually blamed me for my ex husbands relapse .

You sound solid to me.
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Default Jul 18, 2021 at 04:59 PM
  #37
Thanks leomama.

No, you didn't make someone else drink or consume.

Thanks everyone.
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Default Jul 19, 2021 at 06:48 AM
  #38
OP, it sounds to me like you pity and feel sorry for your wife's condition, yet accept less than what you deserve in a marriage and a relationship because you feel so obligated to her due to a vow that states "in sickness and in health". Does that vow also mean enduring longstanding emotional and verbal abuse? Your therapist has said it's abuse. I said earlier that you're a saint for putting up with this kind of treatment. At the same time, I think you make excuses for her because of her illness. Not to be harsh, I'm just being honest in order to help you. The constant threat of a breakup is also a part of emotional abuse. Perhaps it would help you to read up on emotional abuse tactics and signs of abuse. Perhaps you will recognize many of your wife's behaviors as being exactly that.

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Default Jul 19, 2021 at 09:19 AM
  #39
Thanks Hope.

I also feel guilt for things I got wrong at different times. It is only recently, through therapy, that I realized I'm human.... Just human when it comes to mistakes, and human enough to have human needs, and I'm not evil or a bad person for saying I need sex and attention and positivity, and maybe I even deserve it.

Insisting on change becomes a game of chicken... If I insist too much, she's out. She's told me she is aware of all her failings and the burden she is and has been to all of us for years. To be reminded of more she isn't doing, and she wants out. The constant threat of divorce has made me keep my mouth shut about a lot of stuff for a long time.
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Default Jul 19, 2021 at 09:28 AM
  #40
There are many people who suffer from every illness imaginable yet they don’t treat their family poorly. It’s not a rule that sick people should be allowed to mistreat others. Of course if you are ok with mistreatment, it’s fine but it’s not something you simply must endure because she is sick. She isn’t the only sick person on the planet. And if her illness isn’t the kind that she is unable to control what comes out of her mouth, then she surely is able to control what she says and what she does. Having said that of course if you want to endure all that abuse, then who are we to say otherwise.
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