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Default Oct 06, 2021 at 12:31 AM
  #21
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Originally Posted by CometRider View Post
Hi Motts,
The feeling I am getting is that the frightened person feels threatened by your presence in the class......... sort of like her view of your persona is taking over her spot. She has been with them for two years and here a newbie (you) come walking in and ta da.
OR
Maybe she has an ingrown hair up her butt.
I can’t believe I missed your post. I think you’re onto something, Comet. That scenario makes complete sense actually because I have a very strong personality. And I did disrupt their little fiefdom when I joined four months ago. I’m very outspoken and direct, sometimes to literal and concrete.

I am convinced now that she is probably insecure and pissed that here comes the new kid along which she feels threatened by. I think that’s possible!
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Default Oct 06, 2021 at 06:41 PM
  #22
Hi Motts,
I am glad you find my post helpful.
The thing about her repeating, " ...you're are not listening to me." It just dawned on me that what she is really saying is, "... you are to subjugate yourself under me!"
Keep your person strong. Sometimes a strong person brings thunder when we need it.
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Default Oct 06, 2021 at 07:37 PM
  #23
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Hi Motts,
I am glad you find my post helpful.

The thing about her repeating, " ...you're are not listening to me." It just dawned on me that what she is really saying is, "... you are to subjugate yourself under me!"
Keep your person strong. Sometimes a strong person brings thunder when we need it.
I agree. In essence, she was gaslighting me, "You're not listening to me!" translates to her really saying, "you aren't letting me bully you the way that I want to, to justify my crossing the line with you by stalking you on Facebook and calling a complete stranger (you) to yell at you."

I'm dreading class next week because one of the instructors. But I refuse not to go. I will report back on this thread what happens. Trust me, I will not bend!
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Default Oct 15, 2021 at 06:29 AM
  #24
I hope class turned out okay. The entire incident is shocking. The woman who messaged you sounds unhinged and the instructor's reaction is inappropriate. If the instructors think you are the one behaving badly, they should tell you that, or tell you that they don't want to get involved, not put you on an ignore list. Even if this lady was right, reaching out to you like that is so messed up! It's not her job to tell other students how to act. It's the instructor's job.


Class dynamics are so weird. I had an incident in a class a few months ago and skipped a session because I just felt so awkward about it (and it was awkward for the rest of the time I was in the course). My husband is in a class now where other students were policing people's behavior about clean up to such an extent that the organization got rid of the requirement to pick up after yourself!
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Default Oct 15, 2021 at 02:09 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by hvert View Post
I hope class turned out okay. The entire incident is shocking. The woman who messaged you sounds unhinged and the instructor's reaction is inappropriate. If the instructors think you are the one behaving badly, they should tell you that, or tell you that they don't want to get involved, not put you on an ignore list. Even if this lady was right, reaching out to you like that is so messed up! It's not her job to tell other students how to act. It's the instructor's job.


Class dynamics are so weird. I had an incident in a class a few months ago and skipped a session because I just felt so awkward about it (and it was awkward for the rest of the time I was in the course). My husband is in a class now where other students were policing people's behavior about clean up to such an extent that the organization got rid of the requirement to pick up after yourself!

I agree with this!

Hope class turned out ok.
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Default Oct 15, 2021 at 06:57 PM
  #26
Thanks hvert and WovenGalaxy for checking in with me. Class last night went just as I suspected it would based on these women's very dysfunctional behavior. They were 100% passive aggressive towards me in the following ways:

1. The instructor didn't let me into the Zoom room right away. Normally, she's let me in 10 minutes early so I can join any casual chat about the course topic or chat with her and the other classmates. But nope.

2. The instructor didn't really address me during class and when she did, was totally aloof and cold; not her normal friendly demeanor.

3. The nasty classmate was there. She and the instructor were quite chummy with each other and completely ignored me. Felt very passive aggressive mean-girl behavior to me.

4. I messaged them both before class ended asking them to stay behind to chat about the workshop but the instructor ended the Zoom session when the class ended. Super passive aggressive behavior, I thought. Very disappointed that both of these women are so immature!!!

5. I have two classes left with this instructor. I am determined to finish without letting her or the nasty classmate take any more of my power away from me. Does that sound weird?

@hvert why do you think the instructor is so immature and not willing to act professionally about this situation to resolve it, so that there is no awkwardness lingering from the workshop the previous weekend ago? Is she intimidated by me? Is my personality too much for her, in that I am a very emotional person by nature? I am constantly shamed for being the way I am, by everyone b/c I get comments from people like, "you're too much," or "tone it down," to worse pejoratives like "drama queen," and "hysterical," and "overreactive."

I agree with your insight that the instructors' behavior in inappropriate. By not addressing it, they are essentially condoning that unhinged woman's bad behavior with me, who tried to gaslight me into feeling bad for having a natural emotional response to the workshop the way that I did. Her need to try to control me is also inappropriate.

And, had she led her weird phone call with more empathy and acknowledged the workshop's powerful emotional impact with something like, "Wasn't that workshop life changing and powerful?" and then express to me in a respectful way how my emotional response caught her off guard, or something less attacking then what she chose to do, which was to gaslight me and scream at me for being emotionally responsive and sharing that with the instructors and the class.

The big question is: Should I have kept my emotional response to myself, then? And stayed quiet? Am I responsible for taking care of EVERYONE'S feelings around me all the time? Was my emotional outburst inappropriate the last day of the workshop, b/c it made this nutjob classmate uncomfortable?

I cant believe your husband's class were policing their snack packaging usage? Talk about asinine behavior! You're correct. Class dynamics are so weird, esp. where adults are concerned.

@WovenGalaxy I'm so disappointed that these women just can't act like mature adults with me. I felt self conscious during class last night but I didn't emote a single bit and was very straight faced during the 2 hour class. I barely said a word.
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Default Oct 16, 2021 at 05:42 AM
  #27
Whatever reason your instructor has for her behavior, it has less to do with you than it has to do with her. Maybe she's conflict averse, maybe she can't tolerate awkward situations. It sounds like she has a close relationship with that other woman. Whatever these two do, it doesn't really say anything about *you.*

In terms of whether or not you should have stayed quiet - you said that other people were sharing at the same level and for the same amount of time. I trust your judgement more than I trust the judgment of these two, one of them screaming at you outside of class and the other refusing to address this. Maybe you could have spoken for five minutes, maybe you could have shared a little less. *If* your sharing was inappropriate, the instructor should have stepped in right then and there to cut you off nicely, you know? We've all had classes or meetings where someone gets off on some kind of tangent and that's the normal way to handle it - the solution isn't for some other student to call their classmate outside of class and berate them! If I had to guess, I bet the woman who called you wasn't upset with what you were sharing as much as she was that you told her not to laugh at you.


Do you think the feedback you get about toning things down is generally valid? Sometimes when we grow up with people who mistreat us in a certain way, we surround ourselves with people who treat us that same way as adults.

I wonder what the norms are in general around contacting people outside of class. I've taken many classes over the years, online and in person, and reached out to fellow students in a friendly way. Sometimes people aren't interested so I drop it, sometimes I develop nice relationships. A few years ago I was in a class where they made a big announcement that contacting people privately through the course provided internal messaging system was wrong and unprofessional. I'd never heard of that before - isn't it networking?!
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Default Oct 27, 2021 at 08:37 PM
  #28
Update: my instructor posted on her facebook page that she is taking a break for a few months; no mention of refunding her students their money who prepaid for her classes this month and next month.

@hvert I agree with your observation that my instructor’s lack of professionalism says more about her than it does about me. She is obviously very conflict averse (who isn’t - conflict isn’t pleasant but it’s part of life).

The more I process that two day workshop’s events, the more I believe that my response was completely normal based on all the information I had at the time.

And I definitely think that my classmate’s irate response was due to her own issues that had nothing to do with me per se. I was totally allowed to respond the way that I did on that second day of the workshop b/c I had a real healing breakthrough experience. I thought I was in a “safe” emotional space to share it with the whole group. I mean, that’s what happens sometimes when you have an epiphany about your life?

She crossed a line by calling me to yell at me the way she did - we are complete strangers. Her behavior was totally abnormal in my opinion.

I have never confronted a classmate like that - calling up a complete stranger to tell them that their behavior made me mad. That is just not normal behavior. It’s super childish is what it is.

I can’t help but wonder if this instructor’s public announcement is tied to that incident and she will continue to host her classes, just not include me (which again, is unprofessional of her, not to explain to me in a private message if this is why she’s stepping back). I have no idea why she’s stepping back. How would I know if she doesn’t tell me why? It’s all very odd.

I don’t think I did anything wrong. I really don’t.

This whole situation still bothers me b/c there’s no resolution and just a lot of behind the scenes activity that is about me to some extent which makes them seem like a petty, immature group of people. I just don’t get it.

My feelings are hurt because I don’t think I’m a bad person. I deserve respect like the two instructors and other other students in those classes do.

Last edited by Anonymous43372; Oct 27, 2021 at 08:59 PM..
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Default Oct 28, 2021 at 03:48 AM
  #29
Hi Motts

You certainly generated some hostility and it's not your fault. Your personality is what it is and unless you used unacceptable language, then its your right to express yourself.

You mentioned two instructors. Is the other one still involved with the classes? Yes, announcing her withdrawal could be interpreted in different ways. Is this course run by them in a self-employed capacity, or do they work for an organisation? Reason for asking is, if it's the latter, then you can approach the company and ask for a refund on the classes she won't be giving. State the reason why as it may not be known to them.

Alternative is just to sit tight. As the saying goes "truth will out". The attention-seeking classmate won't be able to resist posting something which will give away whether the course was completed. Don't resort to a confrontation on Facebook (or other social media). Subtlety is needed here. The troublemaker will be expecting you to respond in open forum. Don't give her the satisfaction!

It's common practice these days to receive a "customer satisfaction" questionnaire after a course. That would be ideal place to voice your concerns, especially if a third-party organisation is involved. Or, you could escalate to a governing body that oversees their type of work, especially if they claim to be members of that organisation.

Hope I've explained this clearly. Good luck! hug:
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Default Oct 28, 2021 at 04:41 AM
  #30
It's really too bad it came to this end. I hope you are not one of the people who prepaid for the sessions that won't be happening! The instructor could be putting things on hold for a whole bunch of reasons. Maybe part of it's this, maybe there's some kind of job or health issue. Do you feel any relief it's over now?
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Default Oct 28, 2021 at 08:47 PM
  #31
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Hi Motts

You certainly generated some hostility and it's not your fault. Your personality is what it is and unless you used unacceptable language, then its your right to express yourself.

You mentioned two instructors. Is the other one still involved with the classes? Yes, announcing her withdrawal could be interpreted in different ways. Is this course run by them in a self-employed capacity, or do they work for an organisation? Reason for asking is, if it's the latter, then you can approach the company and ask for a refund on the classes she won't be giving. State the reason why as it may not be known to them.

Alternative is just to sit tight. As the saying goes "truth will out". The attention-seeking classmate won't be able to resist posting something which will give away whether the course was completed. Don't resort to a confrontation on Facebook (or other social media). Subtlety is needed here. The troublemaker will be expecting you to respond in open forum. Don't give her the satisfaction!

It's common practice these days to receive a "customer satisfaction" questionnaire after a course. That would be ideal place to voice your concerns, especially if a third-party organisation is involved. Or, you could escalate to a governing body that oversees their type of work, especially if they claim to be members of that organisation.

Hope I've explained this clearly. Good luck! hug:
And that’s what confounds me: how did I create hostility by genuinely responding to an intense two day workshop in an emotionally vulnerable way, b/c I thought it was a safe space to do that.

My personality is what it is? I don’t want to misconstrue what you wrote as pejorative. My personality is my personality. I didn’t use strong language. The two instructors asked everyone for feedback. I had just had an intense breakthrough and wanted to share that with the group because I assumed that would be accepted. I didn’t realize that I would be condemned to hell for that choice. Next time I’m asked to share my experience, I won’t. Even if it is my right to express myself. Clearly, expressing myself due to my “personality” is wrong.

The two instructors didn’t create their workshop through a brick and mortar organization. It was an entrepreneurial endeavor so payments went to the one instructor who publicly announced she was taking a break.

Not professional of her to conveniently leave out that she would refund everyone who prepaid their money. That is just bad business on her part. She’s keeping our money while she is “dealing with something.” I read her disclosures on her website. She claims that once you pay for a service she offers, there are no refunds available.

I’m so disgusted at this point I don’t plan to contact her or the snarky classmate.

At least I see their true colors now, whereas I didn’t before. Neither of these women have any integrity at all. That’s clear to me now.
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Default Oct 28, 2021 at 08:52 PM
  #32
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It's really too bad it came to this end. I hope you are not one of the people who prepaid for the sessions that won't be happening! The instructor could be putting things on hold for a whole bunch of reasons. Maybe part of it's this, maybe there's some kind of job or health issue. Do you feel any relief it's over now?
It is unfortunate that this ended this way. She keeps our prepayments per the disclosures on her website (no refunds are given for any reason, per her disclosures). She can cancel her courses but is not going to refund us per her legal disclosure.

I don’t care why she is putting her courses on hold. What I care about is her lack of transparency, her lack of integrity, and her lack of ethics. She makes a public Facebook announcement that she is taking a break to deal with something, and refuses to elaborate on her scheduled courses’ fate for November or December.

If she truly cared about building her business and retaining clients, she would act more professional when situations arise as situations often do. If you are going to offer goods and services to people as an entrepreneur you are legally required to refund their money if you cancel the goods or service that your client prepaid for.

Oh well. A good lesson learned.
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Default Oct 28, 2021 at 10:04 PM
  #33
Canceling the class and refusing to return fees sounds like a scam. Perhaps an Office of Consumer Affairs would be interested...
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Default Oct 28, 2021 at 10:40 PM
  #34
If it talks like a duck and walks like a duck…

Unfortunately, if you post a legal disclosure of your own design, it acts as a legal document that your clients must abide by, once they pay you for your goods and services. The second instructor has a lawyer for that reason. Her disclosures are boiler plate legalese.

Yes @hvert I am relieved it’s over now. I’m disappointed by the way it ended. I came across an Emily Dickinson poem tonight about gossipers. And I had to snicker out loud b/c Dickinson’s advice is to ignore the hot air that gossipers blow every day at noon (which is the time of day, I assume, women of her time period in the 18th century, sat around sipping tea and gossiping about each other).

“The farthest thunder that I heard
Was nearer than the sky,
And rumbles still, though torrid noons
Have lain their missiles by.
The lightning that preceded it
Struck no one but myself,
But I would not exchange the bolt
For all the rest of life.
Indebtedness to oxygen
The chemist may repay,
But not the obligation
To electricity.
It founds the homes and decks the days,
And every clamor bright
Is but the gleam concomitant
Of that waylaying light.
The thought is quiet as a flake, ?
A crash without a sound;
How life's reverberation
Its explanation found”

The first two lines, “The farthest thunder that I heard/was nearer than the sky,” basically I interrupted as, “The women I’m sitting next too like to gossip about their close friends and family behind their backs.” The “torrid noons” reference, I interrupted as tea-time or the lunch hour. Torrid means “very hot and dry,” and “difficult.”

And “their missiles” is the women’s chosen subject of gossip about a person, like their clothing, who they associate with, their education level, their income level, etc.

And “the lightening that preceded it, struck no one but myself,” I interpreted as Emily complaining out loud that she was forced to listen to this gossip b/c she was in the same room as these women who loved to gossip.

The “lightening” being the gossip, of course. The rest of the poem, Interpreted as Emily’s judgment on society and how concerned people were with appearances and used gossip to socially maneuver themselves from being out of favor to being the center of attention. I could be 100% wrong but I enjoyed reading the poem that way.

I thought I had met a group of people I had something in common with, from this workshop and previous classes. People who would accept me into their tight-knit group.

I guess I will keep searching for my “tribe.”
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Default Oct 29, 2021 at 06:01 AM
  #35
Hi Motts

Reading your response, I thought I had unfairly criticised you but realise that's not the case. I'm also a direct person, which has and still does cause a problem with people who can't accept my straight talking approach. Problem is we don't know the other person's ability to handle our views, positive or critical, if we've only just met them.

Sounds like the instructor who's bailed lacks basic business acumen or didn't want to be bothered with protecting her reputation should something go wrong. We do make allowances if something can't be completed due to illness more than if it was abruptly terminated because someone said something they didn't like. In her position, she should be able to handle the latter. You summed it up, her lack of integrity and transparency. My late maternal grandmother the type described in that fantastic poem; she lived in 20th century. My mother has a similar character. One of her favourite sayings is "if you ask someone's opinion, you are prepared to listen". How I wish that was true!

Don't give up on expressing yourself. It isn't wrong. I'm in a family that can't take criticism but can certainly dish it out. Trying to avoid all the cliches here. You are who you are, part of a dying breed that is still able to speak up instead of hiding!!
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Default Oct 29, 2021 at 03:08 PM
  #36
Update again. So I received a Facebook message today from a classmate, that the instructor and classmate whom I posted about here…have been reading this thread.

Talk about playground pettiness.

What wormhole have I fallen into, where adult women act like this? Whatever happened to respect and communication? That could have diffused the whole workshop incident.

Refusing to deal with a situation creates more problems. It also shows a lack of maturity. Conflict resolution is a learned skill with a huge learning curve but it’s necessary.

The instructor now posted in her Facebook page about canceling her November class because enrollment is too small. Coincidence? I think not.

So, I was ostracized and screamed at because I was vulnerable and because I have a strong personality.

That’s what I’ll take away from this life experience. Very disappointing.
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Default Oct 29, 2021 at 05:51 PM
  #37
Talking about anonymity… that’s so creepy. Did you know they knew about this site? How did they even find this thread. How awkward
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Default Oct 29, 2021 at 06:21 PM
  #38
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So I have been taking classes and this weekend there was a two-day workshop that was really personally intense for me. When the instructor asked us to share our feedback after a breakout room activity, I spoke for about 10-15 minutes like everyone else did. My classmate laughed at me, and when I said, "hey that's not nice," she deflected.

Then tonight, she found me on Facebook and Google called me to accuse me of monopolizing the class time. She said I acted like the workshop was all about me (her projecting on to me, I think) because I am more outgoing and outspoken than she is.

When I tried to diffuse her by thanking her for her feedback and stating that I would try not to "monopolize" future classes or workshops we both attend, she accused me of not listening and then hung up Google chat on me (super passive aggressive move, I thought). She didn't even listen to me, when I asked her to hear my side of the story (she wasn't interested in giving me the same courtesy that I gave her by listening to her rant at me before I responded).

After I read her passive-aggressive message on Facebook, I forwarded her message to our co-instructors who have Facebook profiles (that's where we both learned about these classes and workshops). I asked the co-instructors for advice and feedback, after I gave them context of the acrimonious conversation between my classmate and I, tonight.

The boundaries I put up with the classmate were, "I will listen to you, respect your feelings even if I disagree with you, and I would like you to hear my side of the story now." But she didn't respect my boundaries by accusing me of not listening to her.

Wrong, I did and I repeated what she said to check for understanding, word-for-word, then asked, "Is this what you meant?" To which she yelled, "No! You're just not listening!" So I paused, tried again, and got the same response, which is why I think she was projectile vomiting her trauma on to me, rather than calling me out of the blue to have a calm discussion about her perceived miscommunication from me during our 2-day workshop.

If I was wrong, I can admit it (begrudgingly sometimes, but I will apologize when I am wrong: I won't apologize just to placate the other person though b/c that is a codependent response).

Of course, I suspect she will play herself up to be the victim to our co-instructors, who were both there when this all happened. I think this is a case of two people who have opposite personalities and very different communication styles.

I don't like it when people rant at me, and when I respond with healthy boundaries. And if they still rant at me b/c they aren't really communicating to understand or resolve conflict, then I end the conversation. But the way she hung up on me was not her way of setting health boundaries. It felt like the tactic that a manipulator uses, to try to undermine my self-confidence or make me doubt myself about having health boundaries.

I could use others' perspectives here. How do you deal with difficult people? Do you think I responded incorrectly to her behavior? If you think so, what do you recommend I do in the future with a difficult person like her - who just wants to rant and rave, but not actually communicate for clarity and resolve miscommunication, that is perceived or real?

If you were an instructor who has two students in conflict, how would you diffuse it before the next class?
I don’t think that you did anything wrong by placing healthy boundaries and reporting her to the professors. I would report her to Facebook and see if you can block her. Try to do a self care day after the way you were treated. If I was the professors I would have called her out on her bullying and have consequences of her actions. I’m sorry that you were treated so badly.

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Dear Diary today will be different today I can smile it will be genuine because today is the day I get to live.

This life will be good and beautiful, but not without heartbreak.

In death come peace. But pain is the cost of living.

Like love, it's how we know we're alive.

And life goes on.

That my life weird, messy, complicated, sad, wonderful, amazing, and above all epic and I owe all to Stephen. - Eleanor Gilbert Vampire Diaries
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Default Oct 29, 2021 at 06:24 PM
  #39
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Update again. So I received a Facebook message today from a classmate, that the instructor and classmate whom I posted about here…have been reading this thread.

Talk about playground pettiness.

What wormhole have I fallen into, where adult women act like this? Whatever happened to respect and communication? That could have diffused the whole workshop incident.

Refusing to deal with a situation creates more problems. It also shows a lack of maturity. Conflict resolution is a learned skill with a huge learning curve but it’s necessary.

The instructor now posted in her Facebook page about canceling her November class because enrollment is too small. Coincidence? I think not.

So, I was ostracized and screamed at because I was vulnerable and because I have a strong personality.

That’s what I’ll take away from this life experience. Very disappointing.
I’m sorry this has happened to you. It sound like the professors doesn’t want to be adult and stand up to the bullying. This isn’t your fault that this has happened. It the other girl fault. Ask that you be removed from any future classes from this student.

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Dear Diary today will be different today I can smile it will be genuine because today is the day I get to live.

This life will be good and beautiful, but not without heartbreak.

In death come peace. But pain is the cost of living.

Like love, it's how we know we're alive.

And life goes on.

That my life weird, messy, complicated, sad, wonderful, amazing, and above all epic and I owe all to Stephen. - Eleanor Gilbert Vampire Diaries
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Default Oct 29, 2021 at 06:25 PM
  #40
Quote:
Originally Posted by CometRider View Post
Hi Motts,
I am glad you find my post helpful.
The thing about her repeating, " ...you're are not listening to me." It just dawned on me that what she is really saying is, "... you are to subjugate yourself under me!"
Keep your person strong. Sometimes a strong person brings thunder when we need it.
Exactly! I agree.

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Everyone can do magic - Cassie Nightgale the good witch.

Dear Diary today will be different today I can smile it will be genuine because today is the day I get to live.

This life will be good and beautiful, but not without heartbreak.

In death come peace. But pain is the cost of living.

Like love, it's how we know we're alive.

And life goes on.

That my life weird, messy, complicated, sad, wonderful, amazing, and above all epic and I owe all to Stephen. - Eleanor Gilbert Vampire Diaries
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