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Default Jan 17, 2022 at 12:11 AM
  #21
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Originally Posted by unaluna View Post
Show your love in a special way? Uh - sexually? Is this guy closeted?
Ah, no, he wanted a special verbal expression of it (sorry hard to explain and it's kind of our intimate thing). He's not gay in the slightest.

Quote:
In general, it seems like he keeps telling you to get lost, but you just dont hear it. Eventually yes you can wear people down - ive done it. It doesnt end well. Get out. You are not really in, after all.
What do you mean about him telling me to get lost? Like let him just do his videogame or whatever he's occupied with? He keeps saying he's not busy, I can talk to him, but he of course has half of his attention on the game lol. (That's far from the biggest complaint of mine though)

And I don't understand what you meant with the rest of your paragraph either, mind elaborating? Thanks much.
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Default Jan 17, 2022 at 12:17 AM
  #22
What you said in post #19. It seems like you are doing all the work to keep the relationship together. What if you stopped trying to make him your partner, and just lived your life?
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Default Jan 17, 2022 at 12:32 AM
  #23
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Originally Posted by unaluna View Post
What you said in post #19.
He wants to marry, so I highly doubt he just wants me to "get lost". Unless you just meant that he wants me to leave him alone when he's doing his video games or whatever else. Is that what you meant?

Quote:
It seems like you are doing all the work to keep the relationship together. What if you stopped trying to make him your partner, and just lived your life?
That's what I've also started doing recently, doing things on my own, not waiting for him all day. If this is what you were asking about?
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Default Jan 17, 2022 at 02:14 PM
  #24
You are not hearing me here, just as you are not hearing him. You are not seeing the forest for the trees.

E.g., the forest is get lost. A tree is while he is playing video games. There is a whole forest of him telling you to get lost. He doesnt take care of you when you are sick. Etc etc etc. You are picking off one tree at a time, then wondering why you are lost in a forest. Maybe one tree said marry me at one time. Its not a forest of marry me.
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Default Jan 17, 2022 at 06:18 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by unaluna View Post
You are not hearing me here, just as you are not hearing him. You are not seeing the forest for the trees.

E.g., the forest is get lost. A tree is while he is playing video games. There is a whole forest of him telling you to get lost. He doesnt take care of you when you are sick. Etc etc etc. You are picking off one tree at a time, then wondering why you are lost in a forest. Maybe one tree said marry me at one time. Its not a forest of marry me.
I am publicly and officially his fiancée.

Also, I don't feel like we are really seeing eye to eye on this.

I'm trying to figure out this story for myself, this isn't about what he feels. But FYI, if anyone is being worn out here, that's me, not him.

So feel free to try and think of another interpretation or perspective if you want, but the one you gave doesn't fit about how I'm just annoying him and so he wants me gone. Thanks.

Last edited by Etcetera1; Jan 17, 2022 at 06:35 PM..
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Default Jan 17, 2022 at 06:54 PM
  #26
As far as trying to put the story together. I am still giving my subconscious time for figuring out what's causing the change. If I don't know exactly what's going on with the change, and whether it's temporary or permanent, I can hardly take action in a responsible manner.

Of course, even if it is a temporary change, I still can't go on like in the past. That still needs changed.

But one thing I've found from the past is he insulted himself in the same way a good while ago when he was feeling down. He actually was quite vulnerable with me there. (I supported and encouraged him in return....)

I'll have to think more on all this. If anyone has any thoughts on the kind of change in relationships that I've described, I'd be very interested in that, otherwise thanks very much for all the help and support I've been given here.
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Default Jan 18, 2022 at 08:59 AM
  #27
IMO you are way overthinking this - trying to rationalize his behavior and are looking for something inside yourself that is causing this. It's him.

This person is not someone you should marry. A waste of your time. Time better spent on finding a person who will treat you as you deserve to be treated.
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Default Jan 18, 2022 at 10:55 AM
  #28
Quote:
Does that give you or anyone else any thoughts?
Yes Etcetera1, it confirms my initial thought: he just does not nice a very nice guy let alone a good partner.

It's like you are trying to justify or make excuses for his appalling behaviours by saying 'it's not that bad' or 'there is improvement'. Reading your posts, it just seems a pretty bad relationship where you are the only one trying to put any work in... no wonder you are so angry. But the fact remains, with all your trying, you are just not met.

An average / mediocre relationship is not the norm and is not worth staying in.
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Default Jan 19, 2022 at 12:05 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Molinit View Post
IMO you are way overthinking this - trying to rationalize his behavior and are looking for something inside yourself that is causing this. It's him.

This person is not someone you should marry. A waste of your time. Time better spent on finding a person who will treat you as you deserve to be treated.
Thanks for trying to help more. I felt validated where you said it's him.

I've done my best to only give a description of my observations and not try to assume why he is doing these things. If I am really honest, I don't really know why he is doing any of it. I mean the things he's been doing since the recent change. The things before it, I've managed to understand some of it more, not all of it, for sure. But mainly I blocked it all out before so it's a LOT to deal with and understand now.

By understanding, I do not mean rationalising.

I am also wanting to really understand so I will never end up in another relationship like this if this one is unfixable.


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Originally Posted by Rive. View Post
Yes Etcetera1, it confirms my initial thought: he just does not nice a very nice guy let alone a good partner.

It's like you are trying to justify or make excuses for his appalling behaviours by saying 'it's not that bad' or 'there is improvement'. Reading your posts, it just seems a pretty bad relationship where you are the only one trying to put any work in... no wonder you are so angry. But the fact remains, with all your trying, you are just not met.

An average / mediocre relationship is not the norm and is not worth staying in.
I totally agree that he's not doing much that a good partner would do. And I agree, yes, yes, that he has been doing really appalling behaviours lately.

Again, I'm simply trying my best to describe the behaviours, as I don't actually know what's making him behave like this.

I do not recall ever thinking that he has improved on any of this. My issue is exactly that I am shocked at the change, at how things took a turn for the worse. So, hardly any improvement tbh.

Yes, no wonder I am angry, because I ignored the emotional effect on me for so long so it's a handful (understatement!!) to have to deal with all this now. Especially with the new change making things worse too.

Quote:
An average / mediocre relationship is not the norm and is not worth staying in.
I will respond to this line separately. This is exactly what I have determined myself, and it makes me feel better, and thank you very much for the validation!; but I have to wait for my subconscious to give me more insight on all this, and I am just so impatient having to wait for it. I know I have to know myself more too, I'm doing a lot of work on myself, but I am impatient anyway. And angry, yeah.

Or maybe it is stupid that I'd have to even feel any obligation to wait and understand more. But.....I have experience with having to try and destroy meaningful positive feelings I'd have about someone. I feel extremely tired of the idea of having to go through that right now.

My current goal, as I stated, is simply to understand and orient better about this new change and to keep my anger and reactions under control.

All that needs to be done before I can make any further step.


I will also, again, admit that I find it difficult to break down the image I have of him, that he's just in that category of a ****** person. I would like to understand if the change is temporary or permanent; or if I simply also failed to integrate some of his previously existing negative traits into the image I have of him. I know for a fact that I used to ignore a lot of negatives about people who I would care about. It has bitten me in the arse before and I do not want that to happen again.

So yes, I had to go through this once before, where the person went downhill, due to reasons outside of my control, simply they were unwilling to take responsibility for their life and so on and so on. And I noticed the change too late and it was really bad for me. So then I hate the idea of having to go through it like that again. I would like to be more considered about it now.

And none of that is self-blaming, at all. It's simply me wanting to do things in a decent way, as that will reflect on myself too. And again, I do not want to overreact where he can then try to claim that I'm crazy. For that, I need more understanding and orienting by talking and sharing about what's been happening.

The thing that makes especially hard all this for me is that he has shown a serious willingness to marry me and he did show love and vulnerability before to me, a while ago..... I'm aware that if I tried to date others, some other guys would also be willing to marry me, this has nothing to do with my self-esteem, it's simply the feelings that are hard to deal with for me for now.

But yes, it is very disillusioning that for him the love became just words and not actions, after a while. I am trying to face those feelings, too.

And lastly, yes, I have some empathy even if I do not want to have it anymore, I understand he's depressed, and he'd previously taken responsibility as far as going to the psychiatrist for a prescription. He did CBT too last year but stopped.

And yet things are worse and I do not know if it's the depression not being treated enough or if the big success went into his head.

I do not understand it when a person changes like this. I mean, I can see how certain forms of severe depression (? or whatever it is) can get pretty dark in my experience - had to watch that happen with the other person and that thingy making them being so self-absorbed and downright abusive in the end, emotionally. I never figured out whether that was depression for them or some character fault beyond that. I did cut that relationship off, regardless, but it was a disaster.

Of course, again, dealing with the depression is his responsibility, getting it treated is his responsibility, and all that.

But so yes, it doesn't make total sense to me that it would simply be depression that made him behave in much worse ways lately. That's where I'm also extra mistrustful about his current behaviours and attitudes.

As a sum-up: I would like to see if he will 1) work on himself in therapy or with good self-help or a coach or a support group, and 2) with me in couples therapy. And if not then I'm out of there like there's no tomorrow.

As far as him doing anything tho', 2) I can somehow imagine way more easily than 1), and that's not a good sign to me. And I do not feel ready for 2) if he does not do a little of 1) or if I have worked on myself first enough to be able to respond effectively when he does ethically appalling behaviours if he were to perhaps try and justify them in couples therapy.

----

ALL IN ALL: I do have a lot of thoughts and feelings and absolutely not feeling like it all adds up yet.
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Default Jan 19, 2022 at 03:30 AM
  #30
Hey @Etcetera1

65 Signs of Emotional Abuse in Your Relationship - Millennialships Dating

read this ^
You say he ran out of pills and then started them up again a couple of days ago. Why did that happen? Was there a drug shortage at the pharmacy>?

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Default Jan 20, 2022 at 11:14 AM
  #31
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ALL IN ALL: I do have a lot of thoughts and feelings and absolutely not feeling like it all adds up yet.
How will you know when it all adds up?
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Default Jan 22, 2022 at 03:12 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by sarahsweets View Post
Hey @Etcetera1

65 Signs of Emotional Abuse in Your Relationship - Millennialships Dating

read this ^
You say he ran out of pills and then started them up again a couple of days ago. Why did that happen? Was there a drug shortage at the pharmacy>?
Thank you, will be checking this out.

Well, the thing with the pills is..... We were in a foreign country, and when he ran out of the pills, he had new ones mailed to his friend whose wedding we were going to. But then I find out quite a few days later only that he has been putting off talking to his friend about meeting to get the pills from him.

The weirdest ever thing is: We had a terrible argument, as I said, when I was trying to wave that white flag, he ignored it, I got very upset and then he thought I was going to break his laptop and I had to ground him as he got so upset about that.

And then we had a crappy argument but that was less terrible. He snapped at me that I need anger management classes, I tell him I will go happily if he will go with me too, and take them himself. Then we talk about couples therapy. I express I am glad to do this with him.

The argument kinda dies down a bit of time after that.

A few moments later he's just being weird and sad, and he says he feels everything is pointless.

And then a few minutes later he is writing to his friend about the pills and about meeting and going out and doing things with me invited too.

And then he started doing something productive other than video gaming or scrolling his phone all day. He used to do network engineering/coding but he always jumps to a new company when he finds the company too stagnating, and last year he had a big success, and he now feels he can afford not working for a while. Plus he was starting to not like the company either, so he quit a couple months ago.

So when these things happened, I felt like I got a glimpse of his old self.

Which mind you, wasn't great either in the relationship with me, but it's not the new crazy stuff.

So I just don't understand why the horribly big conflict led to him being a bit better. But only for a short time because he still berated me for the blocked toilet later and for getting stranded in the city.

So I'm perfectly well aware that he and/or our relationship is still downhill if it goes on like this. And I don't want to go there.
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Default Jan 22, 2022 at 03:21 AM
  #33
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How will you know when it all adds up?
When I feel it all clicks satisfactorily. When I feel I can start to do deliberate thinking to do an actual, realistic action plan and then I can execute the plan and take action.

Right now, it's all still feeling very dangerous to take any action or make any change. Even if that change is full of good intentions, like it is just me trying to make the relationship better - that is where it started to go so downhill so visibly to me - or try to get him to change anything for the sake of a better relationship, or anything.

I am concerned about him trying to do more manipulative personal attacks on me without warning. And I am already trying to just put my life in order and this would mean I could get traumatised again (I have in the past, I don't mean this relationship, this is a long story and not about this relationship). And I do not want that, I absolutely do not, do not, do not want that risk.

And I do not want to get riled up by him either where he can just go call me crazy or something. I already had him promise not to call me that, but I just don't want to go there again. (That on its own isn't traumatising, but just an example of what bad drama I want to avoid in general.)

I know he can be manipulative, he told me he knows how to rile up people to make them f***k up things for themselves when they are made too angry and upset. But he never tried to do that to me in the past. He only tries to do it to people that he thinks are bad (so he does not do it often. Not excusing him of course). And this relationship has been a long term one. This is part of why I'm so concerned.
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Default Jan 23, 2022 at 01:05 AM
  #34
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Thank you, will be checking this out.

Well, the thing with the pills is..... We were in a foreign country, and when he ran out of the pills, he had new ones mailed to his friend whose wedding we were going to. But then I find out quite a few days later only that he has been putting off talking to his friend about meeting to get the pills from him.

The weirdest ever thing is: We had a terrible argument, as I said, when I was trying to wave that white flag, he ignored it, I got very upset and then he thought I was going to break his laptop and I had to ground him as he got so upset about that.

And then we had a crappy argument but that was less terrible. He snapped at me that I need anger management classes, I tell him I will go happily if he will go with me too, and take them himself. Then we talk about couples therapy. I express I am glad to do this with him.

The argument kinda dies down a bit of time after that.

A few moments later he's just being weird and sad, and he says he feels everything is pointless.

And then a few minutes later he is writing to his friend about the pills and about meeting and going out and doing things with me invited too.

And then he started doing something productive other than video gaming or scrolling his phone all day. He used to do network engineering/coding but he always jumps to a new company when he finds the company too stagnating, and last year he had a big success, and he now feels he can afford not working for a while. Plus he was starting to not like the company either, so he quit a couple months ago.

So when these things happened, I felt like I got a glimpse of his old self.

Which mind you, wasn't great either in the relationship with me, but it's not the new crazy stuff.

So I just don't understand why the horribly big conflict led to him being a bit better. But only for a short time because he still berated me for the blocked toilet later and for getting stranded in the city.

So I'm perfectly well aware that he and/or our relationship is still downhill if it goes on like this. And I don't want to go there.

Lol as a side bar a favorite e-card I have says “ I need anger management classes? You need shut the F++k classes “

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Default Jan 27, 2022 at 05:30 PM
  #35
OK. I've thought a lot more about all this. I've read the article from sarahsweets too, thanks for it again @sarahsweets !

I have a question too about it. I've dutifully read through the 65 items of what it is like in an emotionally abusive relationship.

And the question is: What's the main difference between these two items? How do I differentiate between them?

"46. Stonewalling
Your partner ignores you, gives you the silent treatment and refuses to discuss what’s wrong. They keep you guessing and begging for their attention."

"52. They ignore you or stop talking to you for days
This could be while in a fight or even if you’re not fighting. Emotionally abusive partners will often check out of the relationship completely and just ignore you for days even if you’re not in an argument about anything."


Thanks anyone for any response.
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Default Jan 27, 2022 at 07:17 PM
  #36
I don’t think the distinction between them is all that important; either one is a bad sign for the relationship and you can’t fix either one by just yourself. He has to be willing to communicate for you (both) to have a chance at moving forward.
I would say stonewalling means deliberately ignoring attempts to communicate, and the latter is just not bothering to initiate conversation? Bottom line is neither one is something a person who cares about you would do.
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Default Jan 27, 2022 at 07:36 PM
  #37
I would say stonewalling has an active element to it, while the second item is more passive, or passive-aggressive. In stonewalling, there still is engagement between the parties, like in the siblings tv commercials where one kid annoys the other by NEARLY poking while saying, "im not touching you!" In the 2nd situation, there would be little or no response to your attempts at normal communication. They ghost you while you are still there.

Interesting that they are both under the same heading in the article.
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Default Jan 28, 2022 at 11:55 AM
  #38
Whether he is stonewalling or ignoring or even gaslighting you: this is *not* a healthy relationship. And that is all that matters.
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Default Jan 28, 2022 at 12:16 PM
  #39
To me, stonewalling is about a specific issue or issues; the stonewaller absolutely refuses to discuss those issues, but might behave well so long as those issues are not brought up. Ignoring, on the other hand, is all-encompassing. The ignoring person won't speak or interact about anything at all.
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Default Jan 28, 2022 at 01:12 PM
  #40
Thanks so much for the answers, this helped clarify.

Based on all this, my partner does a lot of the ignoring, not really the stonewalling.

But I have a sense that he wants to seek my attention as well, by doing this. Does that make much sense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoxanneToto View Post
I don’t think the distinction between them is all that important; either one is a bad sign for the relationship and you can’t fix either one by just yourself. He has to be willing to communicate for you (both) to have a chance at moving forward.
Frankly? I don't really think I can fix it by myself. I have zero energy or interest for that.

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Originally Posted by Rive. View Post
Whether he is stonewalling or ignoring or even gaslighting you: this is *not* a healthy relationship. And that is all that matters.
Well one major reason why I'm asking these questions is to try and feel the attitudes he has. Because, I need to know what a healthy vs unhealthy relationship FEELS like. It's a long-standing problem in my life that I am working on.
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