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Default Dec 02, 2022 at 02:10 PM
  #121
I think that what might be part of the problem with your wife is that she went from living at home to a marriage and mother and she became a homemaker. It used to be that was recognized as having value and respected. That is not the case anymore and people can be mean and critical calling these women as being dependent and lazy.

Women are expected to be much more in today’s world where they do it all and even independent and self sustaining. Now being a mother and full time home maker is so devalued that a woman can be encouraged to feel unfulfilled. These women are not sitting and watching soap operas and eating bomb bombs all day. Instead they get the children off to school, they plan the meals, they shop and do the laundry and greet the children when they come home and often drive them to soccer practice or ballet class or whatever the child has as extra activities.

It is possible a woman loses herself. It’s possible as her children get into their teens that there is a sense of loss. And some women combat daily stress with drinking wine at nite. Some women develop a problem and it is gradual until it becomes self medicating as an escape.

It’s not wrong to look for help and support type group. However, it can become a situation similar to expecting a first grader to enter a 6th grade class and suddenly be able to be a sixth grader.
A sign of this mismatch is when a woman begins inventing things to fit in.

No one JUST masters independence over nite. Also, stopping the use of alcohol as you have shared your wife doing doesn’t FIX the disease.

I think your wife knows you are not the problem. I think what she is trying to create is being a kind of free that she never really experienced before. She doesn’t realize she can be both either. I think she is trying to say, you a good guy but I need to just do me for a while.
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Default Dec 02, 2022 at 02:54 PM
  #122
Oh, my goodness, I believe that @Open Eyeshas made an excellent point. I was 18, 3 months out of high school, when I met my future husband. We almost immediately moved in together. I did go to college, but while we were living together. We had a separation during which time I worked, but it was only a few months long. Three years in we were married and I fulfilled the biggest dream I had - being a homemaker and stay at home mom.

Everything was wonderful until the kids were around 10 and 13 and my husband was more interested in his work than in our family. The children didn't need me as much. I didn't drink, I just wandered into affairs.

I'm finding myself, at age 60, with the life experience of a woman much younger. People often tell me, "Oh, my gosh! You don't look sixty!" Yeah, well, that's not because of the moisturizer I use. It's because I'm emotionally stunted, and I know it.

It is 100% TRUE that being a homemaker is very, very hard work - no doubt about that! However, it is also a life's work that shelters one from the world, in a strong way. Most of your interaction is with children and with adults who interact mostly with children. In a very specific way, a woman who is a SAHM never totally learns how to become a complete adult.

There is no easy or perfect answer to the situation, because I still believe that being home to raise children is an extremely important job.

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Default Dec 02, 2022 at 03:46 PM
  #123
At 60 *Beth* you were still in a generation where women married young and started families and did not have a chance to really be on their own first.

You probably got to a point when you wanted a career change so you could experience more than being a homemaker. I think that may be what his wife is experiencing.

It’s not that she hates him etc, it’s more her being bored with the lifestyle. I think her drinking problem was gradual and got out of control. Yet he mentioned she still drinks some, just not all day. He did not know how bad things were until Covid.

I don’t think she can really explain what she is experiencing so their discussions turn into arguments.
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Default Dec 03, 2022 at 12:05 AM
  #124
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At 60 *Beth* you were still in a generation where women married young and started families and did not have a chance to really be on their own first.
......

Ooooh, no, no, no! Not at all! I graduated high school in 1981, straight into the Reagan years when women were expected to be Superwomen. Office, husband, baby in daycare by 6 months of age. In that order. My girlfriends were Yuppies, every one, critical of me for being a "hippie" and asked me when I was going to "get a real job" because I was "spoiling my children by doting over them."

I just want to clarify. You must be quite a bit younger than I am, not to remember those years.

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Default Dec 03, 2022 at 12:19 AM
  #125
Oh I remember those years. Yes “the yuppies” lol. I am older than you, 66. When I had a phone on the wall and they still had phone booths. 😊

I think we go through stages, change is part biological and what each decade presents that is a milestone as we progress through life. And, there are different cultural and class influences.

Lots to consider when offering advice. I think people focus on escape and blame without listening and instead project how they live instead of considering years of investment they themselves never made.

Last edited by Open Eyes; Dec 03, 2022 at 02:03 AM..
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Default Dec 03, 2022 at 02:04 AM
  #126
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Oh I remember those years. Yes “the yuppies” lol. I am older than you, 66. When I had a phone on the wall and they still had phone booths. 😊

I sure miss phone booths. I do NOT miss yuppies. I felt like I was treated like garbage for not dumping my kids in daycare when they were infants.

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Default Dec 03, 2022 at 08:05 AM
  #127
I think the OP is right and there is confusion and mental health challenges going on in his wife. I think she is at a milestone where she feels something is missing. She had been struggling for a while and escaped through alcohol. Alcohol use NEVER fixes problems, instead it makes things worse on so many levels. I also think his wife is turning to a pier group that is misguided about her real needs.

Between her alcohol addiction and her saying things happened that never happened, there are red flags that she needs help. I think she is at times lashing out at him when he is not really doing anything wrong. Instead he represents a trap she wants to escape from. It’s very common when a child is at a point where they are ready to leave the nest and strike out on his/her own.

It’s along the lines of “I don’t want to play house anymore, I am bored and want to spread my wings like my child is doing”.
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Default Dec 03, 2022 at 11:55 AM
  #128
@RDMercer you mention how you want to get back to the home and family life you had.

Aside from her abuse of alcohol, I think your wife wants something different in her life. I think she doesn’t really know how to articulate this need. She wants to be something other than the wife and home maker.

This tends to happen as the children get older and are embarking on their independence. It tends to bring forward a part of self that has passed and what Is missing in self.

You mention this change slowly developing over the last 5 years. Yes, that is indicative of the development of a desire for change that many women experience. Men tend to experience a similar crisis when they hit age 50.

Also included in this is the biological change of life a woman experiences where a woman is experiencing a hormonal shift. Some women have a real hard time when they go through the change. This change can happen any time between age 40 to 58 with the average taking place around age 51.

Last edited by Open Eyes; Dec 03, 2022 at 12:22 PM..
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Default Dec 13, 2022 at 12:03 PM
  #129
@RDMercer how are things going?
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Default Dec 16, 2022 at 03:43 PM
  #130
Pretty crazy.

I got my wife to commit to several months of therapy with me. This infuriated the kids as they are exhausted. I had several good interactions with her and good conversations, and really had a chance to enjoy her company a few times. She stepped into family life to some degree by making meals and hanging out with me and the kids together just watching TV.

Things blew apart big time, all in the span of one week. My kids told me about things they had experienced that were worse than I knew while they were growing up. I reached out to a friend of my wife's and asked for some input on getting her to reduce some of her time on the phone with her friends in the evening. This woman told me they were no longer in touch. She found the friendships so toxic and the expectations for time so consuming, and the alternately glowingly positive and extremely negative comments from the ladies to be just too much. She also said the "single ladies" were always telling my wife how much fun it was to date, and enjoy the attention of men, and how easily they could get men to look after things they needed done.

I had a therapy session, and related much of this to the therapist. I've seen her for four years. She said, this is consistent with what I expected to hear. She said, I can't diagnose anyone without treating them, but the techniques we have worked on for years are techniques for someone who is in a marriage with someone with strong borderline traits.

Then my son went to pick her up from a work Christmas party and said she was in way too much contact with her male coworkers. My wife denied that but also finished the night by yelling at me that the kids have just never seen a man be interested in their mother before, and that it felt good to have that interest.

I accept, what my son saw doesn't necessarily mean anything.. People can have a few drinks and be too "friendly", it doesn't mean anything happened.

I asked for a few days of no one bringing up anything, and just keep things cool and keep moving forward with Mom and I getting to counselling.

Then my wife blew off our youngest to go hide in the room on the phone with her friends again. An hour later she came out and youngest lost it with her. I tried shushing kid at first, then bailed out, because I was being accused by my wife of making things worse.

Oldest comes out because he heard his mom start f-bombing the youngest kid, and cursing the kid out. I hadn't heard that. So the two of them proceed to directly and calmly tell mom big, damaging hurtful things she's done and how it has effected them.

Around about here, I re-joined the conversation.

As far as she was concerned, None of it happened. She apologized for none of it, and began telling them various things I had done, all with a bit of a twist to them, or taken out of context. The thing is, she accepted no blame for anything from them. The things they said all came from stuff I put in their heads.

Finally, the youngest said, calmly, I don't want to live with you ever again. I can't. You twist too many things and you are too angry, you don't make time for us, and you never apologize.

If my kid said that to me I would be destroyed. My wife replied with, "fine... Then I won't make you meals, do your laundry, drive you any place, or help you with school. If you want to be the child of a single parent, you'll see what it's like."

Then she went and locked herself in her room.

That was Wednesday evening.

Thursday, I came home from work after my wife had left for work My kids were all home from school because it was all too much to process.

I came in our home and got weak and cried. Cried like I have at loved ones funerals. All I wanted was my simple home with my family together. That' all I ever wanted. For the rest of the day I went through periods like that. Weak, shaking convulsively, and crying. That was yesterday.

Today my wife went to her girlfriend's place. She still hasn't talked to the kids.

Looking at this now, I think she had borderline tendencies, and being hurt by me (p0rn), being shunned by her family and having the relationship with my family break down, and me just not being the person she needed at times hurt her very deeply. I think all that, and the influences from these ladies, swirled into what she is now.

This is all so hard to face
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Default Dec 16, 2022 at 05:34 PM
  #131
That is so much to deal with and even more difficult coming at this stressful time of year. I hope you can find some snippets of peace.

You put a lot of blame on yourself for your wife's behavior and I wonder if you would do the same thing if a friend were in this situation. Do you think your kids share equal blame with your wife for the things she did to them? If your son or daughter were married to someone who treats them the way your wife treats all of you, what would you advise them to do?


My father wasn't a great parent or husband. He and my mother fought a lot and I suspect he had a personality disorder. He finally left when I was a teenager and I can't tell you how much better life was after that for my siblings and I. We were a lot poorer and there was a sense of shame around divorce, but life was so much better! No more fights in the house, no more tension. No more dealing with a selfish, controlling person. This thing my mother had feared for so long turned out to be the best thing that ever happened.


My husband's mother chose to stay in a bad relationship with a man who was abusive to his children. Her kids shun her as much as they shun their father. I worry you may lose your children if you continue to live with your wife.
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Default Dec 16, 2022 at 05:58 PM
  #132
I am going to sound harsh here, but you are not protecting your children, and you are in fact, contributing to the harm that is being done to them by their mother. You enable her and you still want her love and affection, when your children are screaming out for help from you to support them in their plight with their mom. You are neglecting your own children's needs, and you are contributing to the abuse that their mother inflicts upon them by enabling her. It is very disturbing at this point.

Take the kids and give them to other family members to watch over because they are crying out for someone to take care of them better.

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Default Dec 16, 2022 at 06:11 PM
  #133
@HaveHope

I'm not offended. You're not wrong.

I'm scared for them, and scared to lose them.

I was dumbfounded by stuff the kids told me this week.

They really need me.

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Default Dec 16, 2022 at 06:34 PM
  #134
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@HaveHope

I'm not offended. You're not wrong.

I'm scared for them, and scared to lose them.

I was dumbfounded by stuff the kids told me this week.

They really need me.

RDMercer
I am glad you're not offended. And they DO need you - very much so.

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Default Dec 16, 2022 at 10:54 PM
  #135
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@HaveHope

I'm not offended. You're not wrong.

I'm scared for them, and scared to lose them.

I was dumbfounded by stuff the kids told me this week.

They really need me.

RDMercer
You seem to be numb to your children’s pain, and that is just as bad as burying your head in the sand like you’ve been doing all these years.

By allowing this circus to continue, you’re just as much to blame. When are you going to put your children first and get her out of that house?
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Default Dec 17, 2022 at 12:29 AM
  #136
From what you just shared, your wife is using emotional blackmail on you and your children. She is basically saying she has a right to treat you and your children badly and then threatens that if you call her out that she will punish you.

Her behavior is unhealthy for her whole family. She is acting like a defiant teenager, not an adult. This speaks of her lack of maturity which is often present with alcoholism and addiction. Even if she has reduced her consumption, her behaviors have not changed.
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Default Dec 17, 2022 at 09:09 AM
  #137
Apologies in advance for not mentioning everyone by name but you've all made very valuable observations.

"Empowered women groups" have a bad reputation, whether they're formal or just a bunch of like-minded people who invite others to join. No longer in the work environment, am not sure if the professional ones still exist. Many gained a reputation for just taking the money, evident by designer clothes/shoes worn at these events. Problems can also exist in the casual groups, caused by personalities. Sometimes the dynamics can seriously affect mental health.

Can relate to the emotional blackmail comments, but in my case, it's my mother who is behaving in this way. We can be too quick to assume we are totally to blame without looking at the bigger picture (being numb). When we ask ourselves why, it can open our eyes to uncomfortable realisation that either a person close to us has changed or they've always had these traits.

You and your children's self-esteem is under threat here. If action is not taken and this situation is allowed to continue, then it's a downward spiral. Hope I've made sense!
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Default Dec 17, 2022 at 11:51 AM
  #138
I find it despicable that she threatens the kids with “living with a single parent”. She pretty much makes them responsible for downfall of a marriage. She blames them for her behaviors. And she makes no sense. So being in a volatile household is better for the kids than living peaceful life with a single parent? She is full of it. Her behavior is out of control
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Default Dec 17, 2022 at 12:38 PM
  #139
@poshgirl I agree that these women advising her seem to be encouraging her bad behavior and they are doing so not personally knowing her husband. She has been embracing a false narrative accusing her husband of doing things he has not done. This has been further polluted by his wife’s drinking. These other women may not know she had been struggling with alcoholism and has delusional thinking and extreme mood swings.
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Default Dec 18, 2022 at 07:19 AM
  #140
What is concerning about what you share is that you keep expressing a desire to have this ideal family and home and what you are failing to see is that this is not what your wife wants. Your wife’s unhappiness is not your fault. However, your wife uses your guilt to empower herself.

Individuals that have trauma related disorders struggle with experiencing emotional balance and insecurities. When a person turns to alcohol and drugs to aide in reducing these unwanted feelings and insecurities, they stop maturing and developing healthier coping methods.

Your therapist has mentioned to you that he feels your wife’s behavior patterns are “disordered”. The therapist mentioned a possibility that your wife may be struggling with borderline personality disorder, but, the therapist can’t really diagnose her because he doesn’t have personal experience interacting with her.

I have also had a therapist listen to behaviors that were confusing me in my older sister. I had three different therapists tell me that I was dealing with a very disordered person. Some possible disorders were brought up of BPD, NPD, and how certain disorders show a persons inability to deal with their deep emotional insecurities and how this comes out in certain behavior patterns. I found it daunting as I began to read about these different disorders.

I also felt sad that a person can be so damaged that they develop these disorders that affect others in toxic ways. The one thing the person can’t deal with is reality. Yet mostly they never learned how to regulate their emotions. As a result, they developed unhealthy ways of escaping these uncomfortable emotional challenges. Some include turning to drugs and alcohol.

When you share about what you have been dealing with in your wife’s behaviors, there are many things she has been doing that narcissists do in order to gain a sense of power. You have described stonewalling, ghosting, being nice and then not being nice. Also, creating a false narrative.

When you love someone that is disordered, you will be traumatized. You also risk becoming trauma bonded and codependent. You ask, how can I help so this person behaves good all the time like when things seem to be going well? The answer is, this is nothing YOU can fix or change. Instead, all you are doing is participating in the person’s disordered functioning pattern.

I know you really want this normal family life that you describe. However, your wife doesn’t want this and her ongoing increasingly dysfunctional disordered behaviors keep saying just that. Your wife is also getting these outside messages that are only serving to increase her disordered and distorted patterns. It sounds like others are projecting their own problems onto your wife. That is when a support group becomes unhealthy.

Meanwhile, your wife’s behaviors are slowly damaging and even traumatizing your children. This especially damaging to your youngest child who no choice but to live in your dysfunctional home.

I am not telling you to divorce your wife, nor am I trying to diagnose her. However, from what you share, I feel that your desire to have the ideal family life and home is causing you to overlook important things that are now at a point where you can no longer ignore the dysfunction that is affecting you and your children.

Last edited by Open Eyes; Dec 18, 2022 at 08:03 AM..
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