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Old Nov 28, 2022 at 05:31 PM
  #41
 
At best there is compromise. Not sure the two of them can do that. I think Tisha may feel that is giving in.

I think she is TRYING very hard.

I also think that moving from her house/home to an apartment is a big change too. I am concerned if she has private space for herself.

Last edited by Open Eyes; Nov 28, 2022 at 05:51 PM..
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Old Nov 28, 2022 at 06:10 PM
  #42
 
I think many marriages struggle because people marry someone who does ABC and doesnít do XYZ. But people really want someone who does XYZ but doesnít do ABC. So people spend their entire life trying to get their partners become someone they arenít.

Of course people change and conform to each other needs but only up to a point. At our core we donít change that much. You donít go to produce shop to buy dairy. They donít have it. They canít give it to you. And scorpion will sting a frog, for a simple reason ďthatís who he isĒ.

Certainly we should try to be better partners and hope our partners get better. But at some point if itís not happening then one only has two options: accept the reality thatís who your spouse is (donít recommend accepting abuse) so you start enjoying other things in life or you leave.

Of course the third option is to stick around and fight (with your partner or with yourself), and be miserable. It doesnít sound appealing. Life is too short.
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Old Nov 28, 2022 at 06:27 PM
  #43
 
Becoming an adult has to do with autonomy. Parents who have not developed their own autonomy often confuse enmeshment as abandonment when a child grows up and seeks autonomy as the next step in age appropriate development. The once enmeshed person often feels selfish and guilty, and then angry at a parent's reaction. A healthy parent raises a child to have their own independence and autonomy so they take care of themselves without being dependent on the aging parent who will not always be around. It's never too late to grow up in seeking healthier coping tools.
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Old Nov 29, 2022 at 03:58 AM
  #44
 
One of the things most women fail to get in a man is a man that can dominate and satisfy.

There are certain things you want from your husband that he is never going to provide you with and most women have to learn how to come to terms with this.

Does that make sense?
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Old Nov 29, 2022 at 09:18 AM
  #45
 
Thank you all for your comments. You all did hit on all the points in the matter. It is rather simple to comprehend my situation. I am glad I was able to explain it concisely so that you were all able to understand. I feel like I have been explaining over and over to my husband who chronically does not understand me. So thank you all for showing me I am understandable!

I have tried radical acceptance for he cannot and will not give me that attention or effort. I have told myself instead I will be the initiator. But, when the time comes for me to step it up, I just canít bring myself to do it. It feels forced and unnatural. Then I get resentful that he wonít either. I want it so badly the bad mood comes over me and I sink into angry depression in disappointment.

This weekend, he asked me, as to clarify because he is so ever confused, ďSo if I had said on Friday that I wanted to take you out to dinner on Saturday, that would have been enough of me making an effort that you would have been happy?Ē And I said yes. Itís not about a dinner out. Itís about him making an ounce of effort to treat me like he feels sexually, romantically loving toward me. It is positive attention, flirtation dare I say. IDK if I am being ridiculous or a baby throwing a tantrum over something unreasonable, but I think the point of being in love, in a relationship, is that element exists in that relationship as foreplay, the initiation to sex. Itís more than sex, it is the glue that makes us feel in love with a romantic, sexual partner. The other kinds of love between non sexual partners; family, friends contains other behaviors that both he and I express to each other, but we are seriously lacking in the sexual chemistry (verbal, emotional, the smallest of actions). So, I do feel in my gut that my feelings here of feeling seriously deprived of this in my relationship is accurate because it should be but is not there.

I want to have a healthy relationship or I want to gain the strength to end the unhealthy one I have. I know I need to keep working on distraction, individuation.

This has been scary, unsettling to say the least. I got something stuck in my head that I canít stop, this conflict with him. He fed into it and keeps it playing out. I donít think he intentionally disappoints and gaslights me. Even after consistently doing it for decades! I honestly believe it is not in his head no matter how many fights we have over it.

When we were first dating, he knew how to ask me out, he surprised me by taking me out somewhere nice for my birthday. Although, looking back, I see how he did it so nonchalantly, so that I should think he wasnít doing anything, that he had forgotten it was my birthday, that there was nothing special, but then he surprised me with the nice restaurant. He has a need to be ultra nonchalant. This has continued and became part of this bigger problem. He is too low key to the point of completely emotionally absent lol.

Now there is very much to this whole thing as to what and why I feel in it.
1. I know I am very blessed to have someone who loves and is devoted to me. He says this should be enough for me. And heís right, I wish knowing that were enough for me. I feel very spoiled and wicked to be complaining at all. But this has been so lacking for me that I canít help it.
2. He does not want to end the relationship, engages in discussions with me about what is wrong and how to fix it (how to give me what I want or I will give up on that and what we can do to make it work in any way), then he either doesnít act like he said he would or he does act in a way that is so subtle I did not even pick up on what he was doing or so awkward because he is so nervous and uncomfortable. I am so sorry it came to this. I am so ashamed of this whole thing.
3. When I have become dysregulated (crying profusely, angry ranting, wanting to end the relationship to stop the pain, then self medicating which is self harm- having an emotional meltdown), he is cold, never comforted me, eggs me on to take me down farther, encouraged and even gave me what was harmful just to shut me up, didnít care what harm it did to me. He didnít get help for me or himself. He didnít stop this.

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Old Nov 29, 2022 at 09:29 AM
  #46
 
Weíve been talking about if we are going to buy a house, currently just renting an apartment. He said maybe weíll get a big house and each live on other sides of it. He said it like itís a good idea, like he likes that idea better than divorcing. I said that is my biggest fear, like that would be the saddest of all endings for this relationship.

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Old Nov 29, 2022 at 10:11 AM
  #47
 
My mother and step dad spend their days in separate rooms mostly. My mother barely speaks to him civilly. I have learned the term persecutory object. It is a case of this. Being like her in this way is (and has always been because she has always been like this) my worst nightmare, and yet I have become her manifested in this ultra specific way. I am kind and respectful to him outside of this issue where I am a raging B. But, mostly, I hurt myself in this because I mostly turn it inward and self harm, then give in to him. He is definitely doing his part though.

I managed to not be verbally and emotionally abusive in the ways that were done to me in childhood, not done to my children, went the other way, was so loving and kind, would never be mean because I love them. But I became what I hate most only with him.

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Old Nov 29, 2022 at 10:25 AM
  #48
 
This video is potentially TRIGGERING
This is the science behind what is happening.
In my case, it is only rejection within this specific struggle over the intimacy issue. Neither of us are doing the extreme behaviors noted in the video. The worst part of my situation is that we are fighting and that I am being harmed with emotional dysregulation. The whole thing is very harmful for us both.

Sam Vaknin The Intimate Partner as a Persecutory Object: Love is a Battlefield - YouTube

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Old Nov 29, 2022 at 12:44 PM
  #49
 
I commend you for being so open and vulnerable. This is very deep.

I admit I don't know what the answer is. I can only tell you that I have always viewed myself as a broken person. My story is very different from yours, but I was left deeply damaged. My needs weren't met when I was growing up, and I got into one bad relationship after another.

I'm still a work in progress, but I had to look within to meet my needs. Given what you've shared, that sounds so trite, but I know it has worked for me.

You've shared that you want to stay in your marriage, and you have the right to make that choice. However, your husband is being emotionally abusive to you. It doesn't sound like he will ever be able to meet this deep and valid desire of yours. If he does, it will be a one and done and then he'll congratulate himself on meeting your need. And then possibly throw it back in your face that he has already done as asked if you ask again.

I may be stating the impossible and the obvious, but you need to find a way to let go of your deep (and valid) need and take your power back. You have given him way too much. If you don't, you run the risk of living the rest of your life in this hell.

I also ask you from the bottom of my heart to let your shame go. You have nothing to be ashamed of. Shame is soul crushing. Let it go.
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Old Nov 29, 2022 at 02:54 PM
  #50
 
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Originally Posted by unaluna View Post
Maybe those feelings have become too "comfortable". How can you have the same arguments or expectations for decades? Obviously tish is convinced that he COULD CHOOSE to do these things but he deliberately chooses not to.

Thats how i saw my mother. But the fact is, she was waiting for me to come over to HER side, that i was the stubborn, wrong one. Who decides who is right? There is no one right - thatz why we have 2 political parties. And nobody is going to convince them to not stick to their differences.

Where is it written that our partner HAS to do what we demand? I think it is written that they won't! Esp if it goes against their nature. Esp if they have the upper hand in the relationship.

So what does it MEAN that H chooses not to do what tish asks? There will certainly be uncomfortable feelings looking at that. Tish giving up the fight means accepting those ugly truths? WHAT ugly truths? Why concentrate on on the unknowable when you could just do as Rocky suggests.
Yes, it is very similar to the difference between the two political parties. Itís a lot like old Hollywood in that most of the writers and creators were Liberals and most of the studios were very Conservative. ďI donít want reality, I want the MagicĒ.

Some of the most talented like Barbara Stanwick who was conservative was able to transform and marry the two becoming one of the most highly respected of the performing arts that we can still enjoy her quality even now in the present. She was intelligent enough to recognize the value in both.
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Old Nov 29, 2022 at 05:40 PM
  #51
 
What you describe Tisha reminds me of my mother who wanted my father to see her and be more emotionally available. He always fell short, even when I tried to explain to him, he just could not provide her with the kind of romance she wanted from him.

My parents were conservative, however, my mother was one of many who was unknowingly influenced by many liberal messages produced by old Hollywood that seduced so many women into the glamour and romance and magic that even the gifted actors themselves never achieved in reality. In reality many of these talented artistic individuals lived very challenged lives.
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Old Nov 30, 2022 at 06:34 AM
  #52
 
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Originally Posted by RockyRoad007 View Post
However, your husband is being emotionally abusive to you. It doesn't sound like he will ever be able to meet this deep and valid desire of yours.
I have been reading the thread and following along. And I agree that your husband is emotionally abusive.

He knows what you want, you've been fighting about it for decades, and still he neglects to give you the one thing you ask for, which IS deliberate on his end.

He knows exactly what he's doing, and he knows how it effects you - how could he not at this stage? If you've said it to him in 100 different languages, OF COURSE he understands you! He's fooling you into thinking he doesn't! AND, he gaslights you, which is also deliberate AND an abuse tactic. Gaslighting is deliberate.

I agree that you have two options: either accept that he will never give you the one thing you are asking for and find other ways to be happy, OR you give up on the relationship and get out of it.

Tisha, I finally left my abusive husband - for the final time. And guess what? Yes, it's scary because I'm 52 and starting over and yes, I am alone and have bouts of loneliness. BUT, I get out, I meet people, I feel much more like myself since leaving him, I feel my true self coming back to life - as though the happy cells are coming to life within my whole body - I have freedom I did not have while under his thumb, and my self esteem is coming back.... ultimately, I feel GOOD, and I am FAR HAPPIER.

So, yes, while it can be scary to start over, the price you pay for staying in an abusive marriage is quite high. You live in misery and you live with neglect. I did, too. An abusive marriage deteriorates your mental health.

I am just telling you my experience after having left an abusive marriage... it doesn't mean that you must leave, only you can decide that, but I see the two options above for you.

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Last edited by Have Hope; Nov 30, 2022 at 07:00 AM..
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Old Nov 30, 2022 at 07:54 AM
  #53
 
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Originally Posted by TishaBuv View Post
This video is potentially TRIGGERING
This is the science behind what is happening.
In my case, it is only rejection within this specific struggle over the intimacy issue. Neither of us are doing the extreme behaviors noted in the video. The worst part of my situation is that we are fighting and that I am being harmed with emotional dysregulation. The whole thing is very harmful for us both.

Sam Vaknin The Intimate Partner as a Persecutory Object: Love is a Battlefield - YouTube
Tisha, did you listen to the next discussion titled ďare you dating a narcissistĒ?
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Old Nov 30, 2022 at 10:18 AM
  #54
 
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Yes, it is very similar to the difference between the two political parties. Itís a lot like old Hollywood in that most of the writers and creators were Liberals and most of the studios were very Conservative. ďI donít want reality, I want the MagicĒ.
Some of the most talented like Barbara Stanwick who was conservative was able to transform and marry the two becoming one of the most highly respected of the performing arts that we can still enjoy her quality even now in the present. She was intelligent enough to recognize the value in both.
I feel like there are two major political parties because people love team mentality, an us vs them psychology. It keeps things interesting.

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Old Nov 30, 2022 at 10:25 AM
  #55
 
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What you describe Tisha reminds me of my mother who wanted my father to see her and be more emotionally available. He always fell short, even when I tried to explain to him, he just could not provide her with the kind of romance she wanted from him.

My parents were conservative, however, my mother was one of many who was unknowingly influenced by many liberal messages produced by old Hollywood that seduced so many women into the glamour and romance and magic that even the gifted actors themselves never achieved in reality. In reality many of these talented artistic individuals lived very challenged lives.
I agree, it is like I need a fantasy from the movies to feel love. But, itís really not a grand gesture that I need, it is genuine emotional availability. For me, it feels like it is phoney or empty with him. It was not this way with him in the beginning. It became this way with him because his attitude changed. He was put through the wringer at his job and was obsessed and angry about that, so stopped feeling sensual- the honeymoon was over. Then it was me feeling off about the physical after childbirth. Something went awry in me physically and emotionally.

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Old Nov 30, 2022 at 10:38 AM
  #56
 
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I have been reading the thread and following along. And I agree that your husband is emotionally abusive.

He knows what you want, you've been fighting about it for decades, and still he neglects to give you the one thing you ask for, which IS deliberate on his end.

He knows exactly what he's doing, and he knows how it effects you - how could he not at this stage? If you've said it to him in 100 different languages, OF COURSE he understands you! He's fooling you into thinking he doesn't! AND, he gaslights you, which is also deliberate AND an abuse tactic. Gaslighting is deliberate.

I agree that you have two options: either accept that he will never give you the one thing you are asking for and find other ways to be happy, OR you give up on the relationship and get out of it.

Tisha, I finally left my abusive husband - for the final time. And guess what? Yes, it's scary because I'm 52 and starting over and yes, I am alone and have bouts of loneliness. BUT, I get out, I meet people, I feel much more like myself since leaving him, I feel my true self coming back to life - as though the happy cells are coming to life within my whole body - I have freedom I did not have while under his thumb, and my self esteem is coming back.... ultimately, I feel GOOD, and I am FAR HAPPIER.

So, yes, while it can be scary to start over, the price you pay for staying in an abusive marriage is quite high. You live in misery and you live with neglect. I did, too. An abusive marriage deteriorates your mental health.

I am just telling you my experience after having left an abusive marriage... it doesn't mean that you must leave, only you can decide that, but I see the two options above for you.
Hi HH!
Iím glad you are in a good place now. I know we had some things in common in our intimate relationships. And lately weíve learned so much more about narcissism, itís mind blowing.

That question about if he is the most Machiavellian person in the world to intentionally gaslight me like this, or if he has some kind of cognitive disorder is really perplexing. I donít think he is either. He isnít that great an actor to be the evil, intentional abuser. He doesnít have cognitive distortion in most other areas of his life, though he perceives some things surprisingly farther from the mark than I think I do. He does have pretty bad social anxiety.

Have you seen Groundhog Day? It is something like that with him, where he keeps doing something over and over but just missing the mark.

I would like to have the radical acceptance that it is what it is and go find fulfillment elsewhere. But I have never been able and am still not able because it still just happened again. I am not able to diffuse my trigger I get from his inaction/lacking. It triggers me to get angry, disappointed and upset. I shouldnít have to even keep trying to tolerate an unfulfilling relationship like this. Especially a relationship that triggers me to the point I got diagnosed with a mood disorder!*(but this was by a doctor who also saw my husband and I question his honesty and accuracy, but maybe he is right idk.

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Old Nov 30, 2022 at 10:55 AM
  #57
 
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Tisha, did you listen to the next discussion titled ďare you dating a narcissistĒ?
Iíve watched nearly ALL the videos. Sam Vaknin is the professor/psychologist who coined the phrases ďnarcissistic abuseĒ and ďflying monkeysĒ. There are videos by him on everything psychology, especially cluster b. But, warning, the things he says are grim and devastating. He doesnít sugar coat it and the prognosis is generally very bad for narcissism.

From what Iíve learned, my FOO had generational trauma, there is plenty of narcissistic traits with really dysfunctional behaviors, there is much anxiety and depression. I am genetically and behaviorally exposed to things that have affected me. But, I am glad to say, I have managed to do extremely well in spite of all that! While I am in a toxic relationship making me miserable, I have been a person who did life in a very traditional way; a wife, mother, and I didnít do anything intentionally or really hurtful to anyone, ever. Just some bad choices sometimes when I was very young, but still not so terrible. I took an inventory of all my actions while examining this whole situation to see how much of it is me, and I am fine with my behavior in every other relationship/friendship/ work experience, Iíve ever had.

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Old Nov 30, 2022 at 10:57 AM
  #58
 
It sounds like your husbandís ego was damaged by what he experienced at his job and he was no longer the center of attention with you when you had your child.

Sometimes what you described creates a shut down that a man is not even aware of. Men can have a hard time with emotions, they hate feeling vulnerable. Most men are not nurtured where they are allowed to have emotions and be ok with feeling. Instead they tend to be encouraged to man up and ignore their feelings. This tends to make them pull away from a womanís emotional needs because it makes them uncomfortable.

One of the things that concerns me is how quickly people use the label narcissist because they want that black and white answer to why there are challenges in a relationship. There tends to be a lot of pressure on men to fill certain expectations.
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Old Nov 30, 2022 at 11:12 AM
  #59
 
Well you know in therapy they say you cannot change the other person, you can only change yourself. And in one of your recent posts, you said you engage in some kind of self-harming behavior. Maybe that is the place to start - changing that behavior. Cuz otherwise, you seem to be putting the blame / responsibility for your behavior on him. I see 1. You ask 2. He fails 3. You self-harm.

Remember the Serenity Prayer: Grant me the serenity to accept the things i cannot change, the courage to change the things i can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Or the alternate version: Grant me the coffee to change the things i can, and the wine to accept the things i cant change.
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Old Nov 30, 2022 at 05:49 PM
  #60
 
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Hi HH!
Iím glad you are in a good place now. I know we had some things in common in our intimate relationships. And lately weíve learned so much more about narcissism, itís mind blowing.

That question about if he is the most Machiavellian person in the world to intentionally gaslight me like this, or if he has some kind of cognitive disorder is really perplexing. I donít think he is either. He isnít that great an actor to be the evil, intentional abuser. He doesnít have cognitive distortion in most other areas of his life, though he perceives some things surprisingly farther from the mark than I think I do. He does have pretty bad social anxiety.

Have you seen Groundhog Day? It is something like that with him, where he keeps doing something over and over but just missing the mark.

I would like to have the radical acceptance that it is what it is and go find fulfillment elsewhere. But I have never been able and am still not able because it still just happened again. I am not able to diffuse my trigger I get from his inaction/lacking. It triggers me to get angry, disappointed and upset. I shouldnít have to even keep trying to tolerate an unfulfilling relationship like this. Especially a relationship that triggers me to the point I got diagnosed with a mood disorder!*(but this was by a doctor who also saw my husband and I question his honesty and accuracy, but maybe he is right idk.
Hello Tisha! I mentioned this on your other thread, but it's great to have you back!

A question I pose to you is this: Is he different in public and with his family and friends than he is with you? Does he show you one side and the public a far better & more respectful side? If he does, and if he seems to have one personality that is great and for the public, and another that is hurtful but only behind closed doors and with you, then you know for certain that you are dealing with an abuser. If he harms other people too, friends or his family members, then it's not just exclusive behavior with you and it may be more a part of his personality and like you said, a cognitive distortion of sorts. However, abusers CAN control how they behave and they save all of their abusive behaviors for their victims at home, behind closed doors. And then they turn it off like a switch when they are in public or with their friends and then they turn on the charm. You see the charming side of them come out.

And yes, I've seen Groundhog Day! Love that movie! And yes, I understand - you've been in this position many times and for a long time now - over and over again, the pattern repeats itself.

Your trigger is your body and spirit telling you that you do not like the behaviors you are experiencing. The behaviors are harmful to you, they hurt you and upset you - those feelings are 100% valid. Sometimes, it's impossible to change how we react, but we can change how we respond to our emotional reactions and to others when we are triggered. This we CAN control.

And no, you should not have to put up with such an unfulfilling relationship. There's so much happiness that you could have, that this relationship is not providing you with.

That's my two cents for right now.

__________________
"Twenty-five years and my life is still trying to get up that great big hill of hope for a destination"

~4 Non Blondes
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Thanks for this!
TishaBuv
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