Trying to move forward

My wife attended a number of counselling sessions with our daughter for our daughter's anxiety last year.

Our daughter said, Mom took it over, made it about her, and I wasn't able to talk about the real issue which was Mom.

So.... Yeah.

RDM

Yes, your wife was triangulating needing all the attention.

This is something that is worked on at AA meetings. Keeping their mouth shut and listening is part of the recovery.

Many of these individuals are very immature often acting in childish behavior patterns. Tons of drama and needing to be the center of attention, prone to rages and acting inappropriately.

Protecting your daughter from unwanted joint sessions with her mother is excellent.

It's a relief to hear that you have no intention of subjecting your child to counseling with her.

My first real post on this forum was about being asked to join DH in his counseling session. Even though he admitted to perpetrating abuse on me, the counselor shifted the blame to me for apparently not using stronger boundaries during this surprise attack. The whole time, DH sat there looking like a hamstrung, pathetic victim. I've since come to learn that it's very common for manipulators to be very successful manipulating counselors. It's frightening, because they don't care what it takes to win, they have no integrity or shame. The rule of thumb I've been told is that if they have no ability to show you genuine empathy and concern, don't go to counseling with them.

The last time I upset DH recently, he smiled through the moment, but then the following day broadsided me that we needed to go to marriage counseling. (The thing the day before had nothing to do with our marriage- it was something he was procrastinating on and I went ahead and got done before it was too late. ) I knew he was upset, and was anticipating that he was going to come at me with something soon. Suggesting counseling is an amazingly manipulative ploy. It's emotionally loaded, he's just pointed out that there's a serious problem, and has attempted to put the responsibility of fixing it on me. If I refuse to go to counseling, how can he fix it? There are some good articles online about why you should never consider relationship counseling with a narcissist. There's just so much potential for the true victim to be victimized even further, by not only the narcissist, but by an unknowing counselor as well.

Thank you for protecting your child this way. It was mind numbing to have gone through this as a middle aged person.

I recently read a book titled the covert passive aggressive narcissist, it's good if you're looking for something along that line, and explains how you can be married to someone like that for decades without understanding what it is you're living with. I found it a bit of a difficult read (emotionally), but also very eye-opening. There are some good YouTube channels that talk about covert narcissism as well, and you might be able to find something that's more specific to your concerns that way.

Please share the YT channels you found helpful.

Private message me if you prefer.

There's a strong history of my wife being wronged by everyone around her.

And the center of attention for being wronged and being ill. I've always treated the illnesses as valid.

No one experienced Covid in our home as strongly as she did. No one "felt" the Ukraine war as strongly as she did. Our daughter lost a classmate to sudden illness in middle school. My wife was overwhelmed by that, emotionally devastated, but never talked to our daughter who is a long time friend with the kid's sister. At one point my wife became emotionally overwhelmed because she saw a boy put his arm around our daughter's shoulders. How was she (wife) ever going to be able to manage the drama of our daughter liking boys and dating ? How would she bebe able to work or progress in her college course. Our daughter entering puberty was obviously going to mean she couldn't work.

That time I walked over to the kids and said, "Far enough apart to keep a balloon between you, or you go stand in the driveway until your dad picks you up big guy."

My wife was sitting on the floor crying about her future lost opportunities when I came back.

You have a good heart. But your wife is unstable and developed a problem self medicating with alcohol. There is disordered behavior being exhibited and your children are genuinely afraid of her. Your wife repeatedly expressed her desire to divorce you and expressed she doesn’t love you.

Your children have a right to feel safe. You are not being mean by having boundaries.

Dr Romani has a lot of YouTube talks you can explore.

Yep, you summed that up well. No matter what's going on, they can twist it to make it about them.

Around here, we don't tell him things unless and until it's necessary because he will make it about himself, even if it has nothing to do with him.

Here are a couple of people who come to mind:

Dr Ramani makes good videos

My favorite (that I still watch a lot) is Surviving Narcissism with Dr Les Carter. He's very down to earth and I find him soothing to listen to. He's been doing a bit on covert narcissism lately.

Angie Atkinson made good videos, sometimes a little blunt and direct, but entertaining too. I think she passed away unexpectedly recently, but she made some good ones.

Oh, Prof Sam Vaknin. He's a self aware narcissist. Some of his videos are excellent, but i find him grating after a short time.

If I think of any others, I'll post em.

Maybe some others here know of other good YT channels?

I like Dr Romani because she discusses different personality disorders not jus narcissists. She also discusses what not to do in sharing too much of yourself because it’s literally handing a narcissist the keys to your weaknesses that they can manipulate you with.

I have seen people with drinking problems go to the bar, alone even and consume alcohol and end up with one toxic person after another. They get drunk and high and NEVER admit they have a problem, it’s always the other persons fault. That’s what I mean about the disease. They keep repeating the same behavior and end up with yet another toxic drunk/addict. They get addicted to that drama lifestyle.

Streetcar named Desire. “ I don’t want reality, I want the Magic “.

Dr. Carter also focuses a lot on healing and moving forward.

ETA: RD, I've been debating about whether to post this, and decided to on the off chance that it is helpful to you. Take it or leave it as you please.

There's a book titled Stop Walking on Eggshells. It deals primarily with borderline personality, and it might be relatable to your situation. However, as I recall, it had quite a bit of information and considerations regarding divorcing an abusive cluster b. It might give you some ideas on what types of things she might try, and what you might need to do to protect yourself and your children. It was a while back that I read it, but it seems like the big concern was that the abusive borderline coerces the situation to make it seem as thought they are the victim and the true victim is the abuser.

Struggling yesterday and today.

There are basic things, little things, that go way back for her and I. There's a genre of movies we've always really enjoyed, there are things we did to mark the change of the seasons, sayings that have a history and mean something within our home. I just wish I had her to share those things with.

It mattered to me to have those things with my partner. I love my kids, but I miss adult interactions. They happened so rarely with my wife, but the good ones were really good.

Something that has changed, and that is hard to explain...

I always felt like I was overwhelmed, like I was in over my head, like I needed someone to take some of my responsibilities from me, like I needed someone almost to save me. That feeling is greatly reduced, practically gone these days.

I don't know why.

Someone better kick my ***** before I try texting her.

RDM

Grief can be very hard...but it helps with healing and moving forward...

When you live with someone who has an alcohol use disorder, and/or strongly narcissistic traits, you are informed every day that you are not good enough. Every day.

When you are freed of that person, you can start to realize "Hey, I can actually do stuff! Maybe I am good enough after all!"

You always could do stuff, and you always were good enough, but being told the opposite daily, by someone close, insidiously tends to make you start to believe the opposite...

Hmph....

So feeling constantly overwhelmed and like I needed to be saved may have been because I was always told whatever I did or contributed wasn't good enough....

Hmph..... I need to think on that one.

((RD)) right now you are facing some challenging realities and truths you tried to avoid facing. The truth is that you never really had an adult partner. That is what is missing when a person is codependent and is manipulated into enabling.

Your children had been expected to also be codependent and enablers. Your oldest reached out for help because he knew there was a need for adult intervention. This is what individuals that meet at Alanon meetings talk about. They express how lonely it is and how tired they are being the codependent and not really having an adult partner. You are not the only one that really loved someone that could not be an actual responsible adult partner.

Most that I met really loved their partner and they got to the point where they were emotionally exhausted. I went to a family marriage counselor who met with both me and my husband together and also separately. My child was just beginning her teen years at the time. This counselor told me that my husband had the maturity level of about a 13 year old. This counselor told me that he would push my buttons to mother him and that I had to stop allowing him to do that. I felt like a single parent with two teenagers longing for an actual adult partner.

The thing about alcoholism/addiction is the constant blaming of others and pushing buttons to be mothered/parented. Yet, at the same time being controlling. Your daughter struggling with anxiety is an unfortunate result when a child grows up with an unbalanced and unpredictable parent. Your daughter in her own effort to fix this challenge is very vulnerable to developing an addiction as well. I have seen this at Alanon meetings where both parents got sober and were dealing with their children who became addicts.

I tend to try to be cautious when someone presents with confusion like you because I know the person loves their partner and is looking for a way to fix the problem. I know the person first needs to understand what they have been dealing with before being told to leave their partner.

You do not have the perfect family. I know you wanted it so badly. The truth is hard, I know, but you are facing the reality of the dysfunction. This leads to wanting another adult to help. This does not mean you are a failure. Seeing realties can get overwhelming and yes lonely. There is no quick fix, and the journey forward is not an easy one. You will have these days where you grieve how what you wanted was not real and did not happen. Believe me there are others who suffer the same way.

What you really need is a therapist that specializes in what you are facing that becomes that adult presence you are craving as you try to be the adult presence for your children. It’s especially upsetting when the children need to completely distance from a parent.

It’s ok to sit and write out what you are feeling. It will help you see that you at times still cling to the illusion of what you wanted that is not going to be. It’s also ok to desire an actual adult partner and ever so slowly realize how long you had wanted that and went with out.

Bill3, very well said.

My perspective is it's like there's constant drama around them that engulfs you. And you take blame and responsibility for whatever isn't right. Then, when you remove the drama, you realize life isn't really very hard after all. It was them that made mountains of molehills and projected it on you.

I feel for you, RD, I also miss having an adult companion, but you probably also realize that you can no longer have those moments with her. Sometimes i think of DH as two different people, and while the old one had some underlying dysfunction, he had some very good qualities too, and we had some good times. Now, he's a different person. Something changed for reasons that may never be understood. Anyhow, guess what I'm trying to say is that you can cherish those memories and grieve what you've lost. It wasn't a lie, but rather it's morphed into something less healthy.

(Hugs). Stay strong.

Thanks everyone. This is really insightful. And something surprising happened today.

I'm off work today, running for Dr appointments, dentist appointment, DMV for driver license photo, etc.

On the way I bumped into the ex wife of an old friend. She asked about kids and family, and I filled her in on my situation. So then we made plans to hook up later tonight, no strings attached.


I'm Kidding!

She and he parted on good terms years ago and each moved on and remarried.

I told her my situation and that the kids are with me. She said she wasn't surprised, and that she knew it wasn't what I wanted.

?????

What do you mean not surprised??

Well.... She had a pretty cushy deal. We all saw it, and she still wasn't happy. You looked after kids, and house, and cars, and meals, and her, and you worked at everything. She never worked much and never held a job for long, and she just seemed like she was always looking for something more. Did you guys ever do Love Languages? Mine is time, I want my husband's time. That's why me and first husband spilt up, he had endless hobbies he pursued on his own. Well, she would have checked most of those boxes. She wanted your time, she wanted lots of affirmation, she wanted lavish gifts. I think she wanted status without responsibility, like to marry rich or something. And RD, that just isn't you. You're just down to earth and look after everyone and everything. We all saw everything you did for her and your kids. And you were her only long term relationship so she didn't even have a comparison to make and couldn't appreciate what she had. She had a good life, with good kids, in a nice home, with a husband who contributed a lot at home and made a good living. Maybe she'll find what she's looking for but it doesn't reflect on you. What does she think dating looks like at our age? How much time, interest, and commitment do you get from someone who already has a life without you? It took me 7 years of dating to find someone else, and I hated every minute of it. Good luck to her. You were the solid one and at least your kids are old enough to recognize that.

Holy ****. I was stunned. My friend and this woman split up about 10 years ago. We used to see them all the time, but only cross paths with her maybe a couple of times a year since they split up.

I couldn't believe how she assessed that, and just volunteered all that info in a span of a few minutes.

RDMercer

You think you had things hidden but other people tend to see the real picture.

Someone on here had told me once or twice "let the side of you that wants to save yourself... win".

That struck a significant chord with me and has stayed with me throughout my own separation and divorce. And I think it could also help you, in the moments of nostalgia and longing... those feelings don't just disappear overnight, but in time, you will see that saving yourself and your kids is the best decision you will have ever made. You don't need "someone" to save you - you need to save yourself.

While I appreciate the openness and vulnerability of your statement, I'm not there yet.

I'm not that interested in saving myself. I'm interested in being able to give the kids a good home,and to look after some aging family, and to be emotionally available to people I love. But saving myself, for MY sake, isn't in my thoughts yet. I've reached a point of having short term things I look forward to. I'm not able to look long term positively yet. Once I start really moving forward, maybe self preservation will kick in more.

I took our youngest to a counselling session on Friday. Kid came and asked me to come in at the end. Kid had a handful of rolled up scribbler pages. The counselor said kid read over 15 pages of notes of things they've seen at home. Counselor said to kid, your mother isn't allowed to come here to sessions with you and I'm advising very strong boundaries for a year, perhaps more.

Then counselor said, You're extremely strong. I began to cry, and said no, I don't think so. She said, yes you are extremely emotionally and mentally strong. You've endured abuse without retaliation, and raised beautiful children with little support. Your wife was drawn to you because of your strength. She needed you to fill something for her but it can't be filled.

Then counselor said, you need to go home and have fun and have closeness and love each other before kid's anxiety becomes chronic. Your kids are STILL in their formative years. They need to stop walking on eggshells. Talk about your wife a little, but play and love each other a lot.

So.... Today we met up with some friends and family at a fun restaurant an hour away and ditched all our chores.

RDM