[Magnificent]

Hi folks,

I am hoping that by replaying a true history you can help me solve a gnawing pain that has been festering for decades. I desperately want the pains to stop so that when I die, I am not still thinking about this.

Assume your name is Mo and you work in a lab with Jack, and every day Jack is accompanies by his significant other called Jill. Assume Mo knew them in this context for years. Next door is another lab containing misfits that Mo avoids because misfits interfere in relationships for idle entertainment.

You are now going to read Part One of a true story in which Jack took Mo out for a coffee, sat Mo down, looked Mo in the eyes and accused Mo of conspiring with Jill against him:

Jack: Mo, you are conspiring with Jill against me. It has to stop now.

Mo: I do not know what you are talking about. What makes you think there is a conspiracy?

Jack: I have had many separate conversations with you both, and you keep telling him the same things.

Mo: Could we be telling you truths like friends are supposed to?

Jack: No, that is not it. You keep saying exactly the same things in exactly the same way and it is not possible without conspiring.

Mo: Oh my days, you have lost it - give me an example.

Jack: You just did it now! That is exactly what Jill would say!

Mo: [Laughs] There is no conspiracy. I never see Jill except when she is with you. You know every word that I have ever spoken to her because you are in those conversations, except maybe the occasional “Hello” when you arrive at different times.

Jack: You have to stop talking to her because it is ruining my relationship with her.

Mo: Almost everything I have ever said to her is covered by two words, “Hello Jill!”

Jack: Then do not even say hello! Do not say anything at all!

Mo: [Pause] Fine. It makes no difference to me as I was not talking to her anyway, dozy.

At this point Jack exits angrily and hurriedly. Mo is left dazzled and feels he does not actually understand what just happened. He gets up, and walks much slower than usual to his lab where he discovers Jill sitting alone. Jill looks up and smiles.

What should Mo do next? Feel free to ask clarifying questions. Feel free to also highlight the mistakes made by Mo and Jack - we cannot undo mistakes but we can learn from them.

Part 2 coming soon.

[eskielover]

My initial gut feel is have NOTHING more to do with either one of them. He is totally dysfunctional whether caused by mental illness or not.....don't get involved in anyone elses personal affairs especially when they are this messed up. I never waste my time on people like that....they need professional, neutral 3rd party help & I am not a professional. Don't get involved unless you give them a referral to someone you know then get outta there.

[Magnificent]

Originally Posted by eskielover

My initial gut feel is have NOTHING more to do with either one of them. He is totally dysfunctional whether caused by mental illness or not.....don't get involved in anyone elses personal affairs especially when they are this messed up. I never waste my time on people like that....they need professional, neutral 3rd party help & I am not a professional. Don't get involved unless you give them a referral to someone you know then get outta there.

I think we are 100% aligned but for the avoidance of doubt can you please state which individual you mean by "He"? Can you please identify which individuals you mean by "either of them"?

[Magnificent]

Additional information: The lab is owned by an organisation. Jack and Mo are invitees during office hours only. Technically, Jill is a trespasser. However, all three are trespassers outside office hours. Mo practically lives in the lab.

Mo actually has a lot of options. If Mo were an autistic statistician Mo might have ordered options by severity and selected a midpoint. If Mo were a seasoned strategist Mo might draw a game plan accounting for new options that will emerge when Jack arrives. However that is not how Mo approached the problem. Mo has emotions, does not see everything clearly in the moment, and makes suboptimal decisions but before I disclose what actually happened it might help me to get some views on what you think Mo should have done, including but not limited to:

1. Change labs.
2. Come back later.
3. Sit down and act as though Jill does not exist.
4. Disregard the previous conversation and say “Hello..”
5. Disregard the previous conversation and question where Jack is.
6. Inform Jill of the previous conversation.
7. Inform Jill that Jack-Mo have “broken up”.
8. Ask Jill to leave.
9. Call security.

[eskielover]

"My initial gut feel is have NOTHING more to do with either one of them (JACK OR JILL). He (JACK) is totally dysfunctional whether caused by mental illness or not.....don't get involved in ANYONE elses personal affairs especially when they are this messed up. I never waste my time on people like that....they (JACK & JILL) need professional, neutral 3rd party help & I am not a professional. Don't get involved unless you (MO) give them a referral to someone you know then get outta there. "

[eskielover]

Mo actually has a lot of options. If Mo were an autistic statistician Mo might have ordered options by severity and selected a midpoint. If Mo were a seasoned strategist Mo might draw a game plan accounting for new options that will emerge when Jack arrives. However that is not how Mo approached the problem. Mo has emotions, does not see everything clearly in the moment, and makes suboptimal decisions but before I disclose what actually happened it might help me to get some views on what you think Mo should have done, including but not limited to:

Don't make it complicated. Ask Jill to leave as you (MO) have work to do & never acknowledge either of them (JACK OR JILL) again

[Magnificent]

Consciously, in the moment, Mo did not see that option! We will never know what would have happened if Mo went down that route (it might not have played out as imagined above because Jill was not inanimate and it was a lab designed for 20 people with only 3 people in it).

Subconsciously, Mo had a lot of baggage. Mo, Jill and Jack had daily connections and behaviours toward each other for two years. In that time Mo overheard Jack & Jill’s various conversations including disagreements and Mo’s opinion was that Jill possessed logical thinking, consistent philosophy, and strong ethical compass. Mo did not have the same opinion of Jack. On top of that the charge of “conspiracy” cannot be to Mo in isolation because a person cannot conspire alone - fundamentally Jack has told Mo that Jack suspects Jill of conspiring against Jack! Deeper analysis is possible but in summary Mo was conflicted.

On emotional leaks Mo would have looked sad. Mo sat down and acted as though Jill does not exist. Jill went back to her phone. There was long silence in the lab. Jack arrived and the couple whispered for the first time. Their unusually whispery conversation involved Jack writing notes on paper with Jill’s voice “fix it”, Jack’s voice “I can’t”. Mo felt alone and sufficiently emotional to walk out.

Roll forward 15 years and Mo is experiencing signs of PTSD. Part 2 coming..

[Tart Cherry Jam]

You really know how to build up suspense, Mo.

[Magnificent]

Originally Posted by Tart Cherry Jam

You really know how to build up suspense, Mo.

That is not the aim but a consequence of the method. I have had time to think through how to communicate the "problems" (whatever they are) and it seems the only effective approach is to run through "everything" in chronological order. The challenge is that on a timeline some memories seem to be out of order and it is not possible to capture everything. I have omitted explanations for why I was at the lab as often as I was hoping it is not pertinent to today's issue. That aside..

Part 2 is short but profound:

After the lab Mo once saw Jill working in a local store where a cordial exchange was unavoidable - edited for brevity. Jack moved overseas. Each time Mo opened a new social media account Jack would appear, and the only news Jack told Mo is that Jack & Jill were in a long distance relationship - with a reminder to not speak with Jill. From there on the couple faded into the recesses of Mo’s memories.

However, the lab had played a pivotal role in Mo’s life. It is where he wrote his dissertation and for a good number of years Mo would sporadically recall being in the lab. From those recollections Mo would recall Jack (who had been a friend in the lab), and from those recollections Mo would recall Jill (who had been around almost as much as Jack), and then Mo would hope they are okay and close the memory.

Apparently humans do not actually forget anything. When we cannot recall something what has actually happened is that the neural connection to a memory is temporarily inaccessible, and all those connections are prioritised by importance. Dementia patients might lose their prioritisation and recall very old memories in random order.

On a separate matter, my view is that in historical or philosophical interpretation there is no right or wrong, such that to my mind any two people should be able to disagree without too much upset - even Republicans and Democrats can get along.

“If you really think that way then I cannot live with you!” - as suddenly as that Mo knew he had lost a disagreement with his fiancee. Mo needed to think fast, so Mo locked himself in his bathroom.

The first complete thought that popped out of Mo’s racing mind was, “Why can’t Mia be more like Jill!” Mo felt his body turn a wrong temperature and sat down. Mo’s second thought was, “Why did I think of Jill?”

Back in the lab Mo had followed many varied Jack & Jill disagreements across random topics. Sometimes Mo calculated a position, sometimes not, sometimes Mo contributed, and mostly Mo stayed silent - for the most part Mo reserved his energy for his own disagreements. Mo had not contributed to Jack & Jills version of this same disagreement because it was an argument in which Mo silently agreed that Jill was right and Jack was wrong.

Mo conceded to himself Jill was perfect for countless reasons, and did not understand how that helps solve his immediate problem in which it will not be long until Mia is demanding he unlock his bathroom door.

Mo calculated he could accept Mia’s threat and break up, then find someone more like Jill - then calculated that would fail because Mia and Jill are similar, and nobody is going to exactly clone Jill so any future relationship would break off as soon as a significant difference is discovered. Mo then calculated that he could break up with Mia and seek out Jill - then calculated that would likely fail because he believes (or hopes) she is oversees happily married to Jack. Mo calculated his best option was to dump his philosophical position because it was not a position used daily and all relationships will stay as-is. Unfortunately Mo cannot now remember what the disagreement was, or what position he needs to take in the event that the disagreement returns!

Mo has always considered relationships sacrosanct and does not break them easily. The decision to surrender and apologise for having an opinion is profound for many reasons. On one hand it is compatible with Mo's views on protecting relationships. On the other hand it is not comparable to Mo agreeing to paint a wall in a colour he dislikes. The philosophical point cannot be recalled but Mo believes it was a point of view, not something scientifically right or wrong like the result of a Newtonian speed calculation, and possibly a core personality construct. In other words it is not something Mo would have backed down on if there were a credible alternative to doing so.

Part 3 picks up from what happened the next morning... there might be 5 parts to this story to get to present day. In the meantime, please comment on any points where Mo could have chosen a better path.

[eskielover]

Feels to me like watching a soap opera.....I quit watching those years ago

[Magnificent]

Ahahaha.. There is no laugh reaction on this forum! I do not watch TV but I suspect my life is the kind of low quality packaged manure soap opera writers try to manufacture cheaply for public consumption. If that is the case, it is actually you that is observing my soap opera and I have broken your abstinence

To be honest I was thinking the same, but more the end part not these easy stuff

Maybe this format is not the right one for communicating all the interlocks that ultimately lead to psychological stresses?

[unaluna]

Being manipulative is not the way to make friends.

[Magnificent]

Originally Posted by unaluna

Being manipulative is not the way to make friends.

I find everyone manipulates - some more than others. If I had friends in the fullest idealistic sense then I would not use a web forum for advice.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by Magnificent

I find everyone manipulates - some more than others. If I had friends in the fullest idealistic sense then I would not use a web forum for advice.

Agree. Im trying to manipulate you to GET TO THE POINT ALREADY!!! Im old, i might not make it if you keep dragging it out!

It's not the days in your life, it's the life in your days.