I need you guys to point out where I can improve myself

Two updates (and a question) ...

We normally ride home - by bike - together (either one of us makes a small detour). Last Friday, the person with whom she takes tango classes attended an event too and he picker her up and drove her home. Yesterday, something similar happened: a small event with only a few people. One of her friends (who has a girlfriend, so he is no "threat") whom she knows from before she started dancing and lives very close too her was there too. She chose to ride with him. Both occasions left me very disappointed as these are the moments when I can talk to her easily.

On Sunday evening, I suggested to go running together. I have been playing with the idea for a while and have lost some weight recently so to start running will be less of a burden on my joints. She seemed enthousiastic, then said that where she works out, it is impossible to run together as it is too narrow and eventuall said she would look for a location. I suggested a place and a tour - not too long as it will be my first run since my heart problems surfaced three years ago) and she agreed.
She does have a last minute photo shoot (its her job) on the day we were supposed to meet and suggested a moment next week ...

All this starts to feel like a pattern and I wonder whether she would even notice if I were to disappear from her life. All this brings me to my question. Last week, an advertisement for a learn-to-date course showed up in my facebook. Their catch phrase was "A mixed signal is no signal." Beneath that, they elaborated that, if a woman is interested, it will be clear and she will do anything to spend time with you. All this aligns with my insecurity but on the other hand, the postponing of things suggest a pattern.
I know that an advertisement is made to sell things and that advertisers will go at lengths to achieve this and that they are probably exploiting my insecurity (and that of many others of course) but this quote is playing in my head.

And also another question ... she has been single for two months, after a short relationship of five months and a breakup from which she suffered badly (just so you don't have to read the entire history of this thread). I know it is early to expect things but, if somebody doesn't really feel the butterflies, can this change over time? Or is this really a things that happens when you first meet?

Something else: in the same context (tango dancing), I do meet another woman who is 7 or 8 years older than me. We do get along fine but she just came out of a relationship with a very dominant and manipulative partner - an experience I escaped from four years ago - and I have the impression that she would still take that partner back any minute.

On the other hand, I am starting to have the impression that she has taken an interest in me. ('Oops, I made a mistake (while dancing) - 'Oh no, yóu can't make mistakes'; she invited me to the dance event my first choice of a dancing partner did not join me for; 'We were talking about men, but don't mind to ask me because I am always ready to dance with the right man'). At the same time I am terrified to end up in a situation with somebody who is still hoping for such kind of ex partner to return. I don't have the impression that her age is an issue although my last two relationships were with women 12 and 10 years younger than me*.

It does feel nice to have this kind of interaction but at the same time I do feel guilty towards her - even when I am not sure she does take a liking in me as she might just be toying around - but I am mostly scared this interaction will have an impact on my chances with the one I really fancy.

*I have often wondered why this could happen as I tend to think this would take a lot of confidence and all other women I have been in love with were roughly my age (say + or - 2 years) but almost always my feelings remained unrequited. I do notice that, in such situations, I don't think about the possibility of persuing something and I believe that makes me act more naturally, more relaxed. And also - but maybe that is a coincidence - it could be that younger women are more willing to take things in their hands themselves because in the end, the final step from getting on fine, seeing each other very often etc. towards a relationship was never on my initiative.

Also, I believe I should let go or at least try to find a balance between letting go and at the same time not giving up. But how? It is an idea that terrifies as it implies sitting out my loneliness until a next chance meeting which might not occur for another twenty years.

I agree with your last post, I think finding that balance will be key.

I’m seeing some examples of “all or nothing” thinking in your other posts. I don’t think you should read too much into this woman not spending one on one time with you at this stage.

In my own experience, if it helps you, I was friends with my husband quite some time before we developed a relationship. I wouldn’t say I sought out his company initially but I did like him and it took time to develop that.

Be careful with reading dating advice, there’s a lot of generalised stuff written, but we are individuals with different perspectives and thoughts, we don’t all fit into the pattern these websites write about.

Yes, great advice!

Be careful feeling like you have to earn someone, because the trap in that thinking is reasoning there is an "earned" outcome which can generate allot of misplaced feelings on the matter. I've been married almost 30 years, but I would never say I earned my wife, anymore than she earned me. Relationships are complex and evolve over time. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses which means at various points one could be doing more of the lifting than the other. And that comes in all forms - (emotionally, financially, physically). So if you feel inclined to carry a scorecard through this maze of events, you are guaranteed to be disappointed every time because nothing in this world reconciles like that.

Being who you are is not a resume you sell to the other person for a position. Throughout my life I've known people that were good for friends and nothing they could have done would have changed that. Others were good partners, but those had an expiration date on them because the long haul was not what one of us or both of us wanted. The future is not set by how you or another person feels will happen. The process is always just what's happening today and over time you can look back and see where you've gone. I nor my wife could have guessed we would be here this far down the road. But then again we weren't thinking that far ahead. We were just working on the present. Believe in you and accept those who are interesting into your life and just see where it goes. Everything happens for a reason, and you have to trust the process of living your life and understand when things do not work out, then that was the natural course of what it was supposed to do.

I might be misreading this, but in my current mindset seeing where things go means accepting I will be alone and lonely for the rest of my life.

I must agree that it is nice to have friends but in my experience becoming friends with somebody you have or had feelings for always ends in her choosing for a partner. And me - it is always me - being left behind broken hearted and even more anxious the next time I dare to hope for something more.

Maybe I should not be wondering what is wrong with me then but rather how to cope with a life that is rendered completely meaningless for lack of social relations.

I use to think EXACTLY like you. Now that I'm parking it close to 60, it feels like a lifetime ago. But the irony of that is when I met my wife -to-be, I had abandoned any hope of ever maintaining any meaningful relationship , least of all getting married. So what changed?

In retrospect, I was exhausted with experience, so I was not in the mood to work that hard to invest in any expectation so much as just keep everything real in the moment. This meant I was 100% honest with everything I saw and said. I was not a better or ideal version of me, I was just REGULAR me and that made all the difference. How she would react would not be the measure.

Now was it all just me creating this result? Of course not. The reason why it worked out was because she was in the same place in her life and came into this essentially the same way. For once, we were both looking at one another but feeling the grass was greener on our OWN side. That made us make honest choices, say things in an honest expression, and look at everything with a grounded perspective, rather than wishful thinking.

So the short answer is I quit feeling like I had to do all the work in dating which in turn meant I was not going to carry the blame anymore. I valued who I was and if they didn't like it, that was finally okay. I always blamed myself for relationships that went sour because I was wired to think I said or did something wrong. Turns out what was wrong was the way I thought about it and myself in those encounters.

I can look at each one of those now and shake my head. I didn't know what I was doing. There were some people I had absolutely no business hooking up with because they were just not good for me. Others were in a different place in dating than me, so I was not a good fit for them. And then there were some where the person I chased was not serious like I was, so I either burned them out or ran them off by putting too much weight on everything we did.

But I never could see it like that at the time because I had ZERO objectivity. Even though they were all different people, I saw them all as equal "missed opportunities " simply because I believed I needed to be with someone that would make me feel complete and accomplished as a person. Of course listening to music and dreaming about what the future could be with each of them blew it all up into pure fantasies that guaranteed a bad result. Completely wrong headed way to see it.

So when I quit placing all the merits in these individuals , which I helped create through unrealistic expectations, and started liking my own life without them, then (and only then) did my vision become clear because I thought about myself FIRST.

Instead of what I could do for them, it became were these people a good fit FOR me. My expectations became measured. How I saw them now was based on whether they were good in my world where my happiness existed. The decision about how they would be in my world became mine to make, not theirs to cast aside or dictate terms.

So instead of you seeing your life as that of someone "alone", you need to see it as a valued world that belongs to YOU. Yes, another person can bring valued experiences into that world, but they also bring everything else that is less inviting. And if you do not know where you stand for yourself, what do you do when they need your help when they fall down? You have to be able stand alone before you stand beside another person. That means happiness needs to start with you first.

That is how I eventually starte my last serious relationship. I had other things to do, absolutely not time etc.

But basically, it means accepting my loneliness, hoping that I can build up some kind of a life within a reasonable timespan and then maybe ... to me, now, it does not seem worth the effort. This involves so many uncertainties that going on, only to try and probably having to continue with empty hands does not make sense anymore.

I often notice that I feel better when I can stand next to somebody who needs support. For me, that is part of what makes life meaningful. I can't imagine any sense of purpose when I have to continue living in isolation (yes, I do see a lot of people these days but the moment I go home, meeting people only makes it more obvious how much I suffer from being alone.
I have no talent for happiness.

A few - probably last - words about this one person ...

Last Friday there was an event with live music. She seemed more than happy to dance with me through the first part of the first live set. We even discussed attending the tango weekend organised by our dancing school. We danced more than we normally do. And then, I was hoping for our ride home but it didn't happen., maybe due to miscommunication althoug she know where my bike was parked.

Then yesterday, we met again. We dance, we had a chat but there was no bike ride. The man with whom she's been taking classes for two years had picked her up and drove her home, which seems logical to me as they are used to doing that. What bothers me more is that we had agreed to go for a run the coming week and that she has - as she said - no energy and also the swimming season starts so she will probably prefer swimming. She did say that she really liked the idea and that she would look for another moment. But that was before the but (which makes me think of a popular Jon Snow quote).

That leaves me with the promise that we will attend a tango waltz class in June and a concert later that month, but I am not sure these are really going to happen.

For me, it feels like the whole situation gave me the clarity I need: this will not happen (and I can think of a hundred reasons why we would be a great match) and I am off to the desert for another 2, 4, God knows how many years.

I did not sleep well, for most of the night I have been pondering my original question ... What am I doing wrong? How can I fix this? How can I improve myself?

Also, this "a mixed signal is no signal" quote, to me seems to go beyond merely marketing.

The problem with putting two people together who are there for support is that eventfully one of them gets better. Once they get better, the other person's support loses its value. You have to want to be there for very organic reasons besides needs. Because if you're literally checking off the list of things to do in a day with someone, I got to believe that bleeds out on how you interact with them and how they subsequently read you.

If self-happiness is something you are not good at, then you know what you need to do. Because the one thing I DO know about lasting relationships is if you do not have an internal gauge for understanding yourself then you're destined to misread everyone else. Why? Because being with people in a meaningful relationship means you develop not only a understanding of their motivations, moods, shortcomings, strengths, and weaknesses, but how you fit into that and whether they can do the same for you.

You have to give allot of yourself in relationships which means you have to know where you stand with yourself to be there properly for others. What you said in your last update was very telling. You placed all the weight on what you didn't do rather than what the two of you did do. It sounded like you were grading a meet and greet with a rock star. " We got to talk and the autograph, but I never received the photo op I was promised," You see how mechanical that sounds? It felt very transactional. I didn't get any sense there were two people trying to connect in that depiction.

I was merely responding to the question what I would do in diffcult times. Probably I did not express myself sufficiently clear.

It is not that I have a checklist of things that need to be done. I am insecure and long for clarity.

It will take years to build up this self-happiness. Maybe twenty, thirty or more. By the time I can think of starting to live, it will all be over. So basically, this means it is not going to happen for me. Not ever. I am not sure whether I want to endure so much loneliness for so long, knowing that by the time I might feel better about myself it will be too late to connect with somebody.

I tend to become very analytical when I am insecure. And I believe I should get this situation out of my head. That is why I focus on the things that dont happen. Also my anxiety dictates me to think like this.
Also, agreeing on an activity and then deciding you won't go through with it, does not feel very encouraging nor reassuring.

I guess in the end it boils down to accepting myself and feeling better about myself. This seems impossible. It is a harsh verdict. I should start thinking about how I can live out my days in loneliness but even if I somehow manage, every minute of my future will be hard to bear.

What if you don't try to accept yourself, and don't try to feel better about yourself?

Instead, what if you let your thoughts and feelings be whatever they are, and focus instead on consistently taking steps to accomplish goals that are important to you?

A harsh verdict? That is why you're caged in this pattern. Nobody in this world can make you feel good about yourself. Nor is it their responsibility. Relationships are a two way street. Sure you have an emotional reaction to being with someone you like. But that's a surface emotion built from superficial moments.

And no it doesn't take "20 or 30 years" to value yourself. Mine happened in a moment and in retrospect it was survival instinct kicking in because I was tired of beating my head against the wall with the same results. The TRUTH of my circumstances was I looked at it all wrong.

You may ask what is so important about loving yourself. Its because that's where your reasoning for where you fit and who should be around you comes from. Let me ask you something. Ever been to a restaurant where the service was bad and the food was terrible? Ever been to a restaurant where nothing on the menu was particularly to your liking and the prices were too high?

Okay. Now in both instances, why wouldn't you go back to those two places? Well for the very reasons I mentioned. You see it objectively. You KNOW what you like to eat, at what cost, and you want to have it prepared properly and provided by friendly faces because after-all you're paying for it. There's a value assessment happening there.

Now if you didn't pay attention to those factors and kept going back to those restaurants, chances are good you would get very tired of eating food you didn't like, lousy service, and going broke eating there. Who has to point that out to you? The waitress that ignores you? The restaurant owner? Your friends who don't go there? No... You figure that out for yourself because you KNOW what you like, you KNOW what you don't like, and you KNOW how you want that experience to go for yourself. Guess what? Meeting people are like that too.

When you understand yourself, you develop an understanding of people you want to be around and those you need to stay away from. If people are not reliable or don't do what they say they're going to do, why do you waste your time with them? Your time is important. So, no it doesn't take 20 or 30 years to figure these things out.

Do the things you like to do and enjoy those things. If you can find others who like doing those things, then see if they fit. Most people in life are not exact fits. Some people are good for friends to hang out occasionally. Some are good to talk to but have bad habits so you keep them at arms length. Others are more available and may be something worth pursuing. But time with them bares that out. However, none of these assessments are possible (just like the restaurant analogy) if you do not understand what you want and or need.

Just spending time with people is no measure of yourself. You need to learn to trust what you like and accept the fact meeting people are going to carry different experiences, so you need to understand what it is you want for yourself before you start assessing whether these people work for you or not. That's why its important to love and care for yourself. It offers amazing clarity when you understand yourself. Suddenly you can read the menu quite clearly... not to mention the prices. (;

Suppose I value me, and every day I am confronted with the fact that I am the only one who does ... how long can you reasonably expect me to maintain that position?

@pliepla Have you ever considered that you could be neurodiverse? I mean like on the autism spectrum.

Obviously I have no way of knowing you except through your posts on this thread but you reply in ways that aren’t very neurotypical. So it got me thinking if maybe you are on the autism spectrum.

You don’t have to answer if you don’t want to. And obviously I’m being extremely presumptuous. So I apologise if I have caused offence. I certainly did not mean to.

This has come to mind. I have a somewhat difficult history with the idea.

When the trouble with my ex wife started, we went into couple therapy. In the end, we ended these sessions, both convinced that it was all my fault. That was what she did: manipulate and dominate and in retrospect, this problematic power dynamic has been present in our relationship since day one. Somewhere in this period, the therapist suggested to have me test for autism (my ex wife was a doctor who, up to that point had been criticizing the hype of branding everybody as autistic). After that, she attributed everything that irritated her as my autism. This lasted for 3 years. It really hurt and I have never let this idea go. Thinkin about the possibility has been very painful for a long time.

After the divorce I asked my psychiatrist, whom I had been seeing for roughly years at the time. He stated he saw no reason to test for ***. When I was hospitalised years later, I remember my penultimate session being about autism. He took the DSM and I do have many traits, but he also explained that autism is not just about ticking boxes but also about why one has certain thoughts, emotions or behaviours. As he knew me for a long time, he could attribute everything to traumatic or problematic circumstances that I have been living in for longer periods of time (bullying when I was 9-11 years old, a very problematic relationship with my parents due to which I ended up in a career that was probably the worst match imaginable and eventually my marriage).

At the same time, I saw a psychologist. She too saw no reason whatsoever to test for ***. When hospitalized, I asked the same question, both to my psychiatrist and to the supervising psychiatrist. They know me less well of course (I have only been there for two months) but they had the same answer: in my case, they considered testing for *** a waste of time.

Shortly before my hospitalisation, I switched to a new psychologist. I have been seeing her for almost two years now. She too sees no reasong to test for autism. We often joke about this - like, when I turn up exacly on time for three sessions in a row (which is easy because I take the bus which always arrives at the same moment) or when we have to meet in another room because her office is being redecorated - which takes some of the weight of thinking about autism off my shoulders.

Yesterday, I had a particularly difficult day. I had a first consultation with a new psychiatrist and honestly, when I look back at what happened in therapy, I don't really believe it will make a difference and I don't trust him either. To my surprise, he was very understanding (on the other hand, I pointed out what happened during therapy the last 20 odd years). I have my next consultation in a month and in the meanwhile he is going to contact therapists going back 10 years (!). I got no medication; here too, I have a history of rare side effects, including a heart failure that was probably triggered by an antidepressant.
We will probably go through some diagnostic trajectory. He made a piramid with anxiety at the top, trauma just below that, attachment one storey lower and *** just below that. He doesn't rule it out.

About being neuro atypical ... I met up with a colleague of ten years ago a few weeks back. He has been diagnosed with ADD in his early fourties. I could relate to many of hís experiences and I could definitely live with this ... I think it matches my chaotic nature.

Oh wow, I’m so sorry. I certainly didn’t mean to cause you any upset. And in fact, I myself have been diagnosed with adhd and my husband with autism both as adults.

I in no way believe that would be something that would result in you being the only one to “blame” for things that went wrong in your marriage.

A marriage has two people in which both are supposed to take time to see from the others perspective.

It was just something that I had picked up from what you were saying.

Maybe read up some more about neurodiversity in adults and see if it fits? I honestly feel like a light bulb has been turned on for me.
I’m not saying it will, but if you think that may be the case it could also explain your approach and ways of thinking. However, it is important to discuss with your p doc or whoever else you see, what your thoughts are. Your traits or way of thinking could absolutely be as a result of trauma too. I don’t know.
I wish you all the best, you seem like a very lovely and genuine person.

There is so much more that you can offer and that the world can offer you. Have you ever thought about travelling? Seeing places? Or exploring/hiking? Or using your dance to travel to competitions?

If you value yourself, then its not an option you ever let go because that governs your ability to make good choices for yourself. In terms of receiving a caring quality from others, that's a word that can carry allot of different meanings depending on what your expectations are.

So for yourself what is the difference between say a family member that cares about you versus someone out in the wild you just met? When does the expectation kick in that a person you just met should become more and now care for you? How do you rationalize that exchange of words, actions, and deeds that says you now have reached that plateau?