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Default May 24, 2023 at 09:13 AM
  #61
I’m so sorry your ex used a possible autism investigation against you in that way, sadly I’ve heard of people scapegoating others like this before. That wasn’t fair of her and it sounds like you’re better off without her. Not every woman would act like that.

I too wondered if you weren’t neurotypical in some way, sorry if I use the wrong words, I read your posts almost as you trying to make sense of the world, again sorry if I use the wrong words.
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Default May 25, 2023 at 05:45 PM
  #62
I'm not upset about the mention of maybe being neuro-atypical. What did upset me, was the way my ex wife used it to bring me down. As said, the psychiatrist I was seeing throughout my divorce was convinced that all autism-traits could be explained from an anxiety perspective too. And yet, maybe a diagnosis might give me handles to make life easier.

What I remember from a conversation with an ex colleague is that his story of ADD is very recognisable though.
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Default May 25, 2023 at 05:48 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Embracingtruth View Post
So for yourself what is the difference between say a family member that cares about you versus someone out in the wild you just met?
My ex-wife created a rift between me and my family that, four years later, still hasn't been bridged. She did this - among other things - by sending long emails with insults; some from my mail account. So a family member who cares is no longer an option for me, it seems.
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Default May 25, 2023 at 06:25 PM
  #64
You said "ex-wife created a rift". I'm curious, what is it that you want to create?
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Default May 29, 2023 at 03:00 AM
  #65
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You said "ex-wife created a rift". I'm curious, what is it that you want to create?
I'm not quite sure I want to create anything as I feel it is mostly out of my hands.

I hope for a place where I belong, experience some appreciation, be at ease but creating this? I know I depend on chance meetings ... I don't have that many; at least not with women who are candidates a relationship (most people in tango come as a couple). Apart from that, even keeping in touch with a friend involves some anxiety because even if they explicitly state they don't have time but we will meet another time, it feels as if I am not being sufficiently interesting (hence my original question) so it is hard to maintain a social circle too. Somehow, I hope that somebody being there for me, just because of me and not because I try so hard could help me find some easy of mind. I know a relationship will not be the solution to my underlying problems and that I will have to keep working on them but it might take of the sharpest edge that cuts me most often.

Last edited by pliepla; May 29, 2023 at 03:23 AM..
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Default May 29, 2023 at 03:14 AM
  #66
Looking back on the last week ...

Last Friday, I had a chance meeting with somebody I've "known" for three years. That is, I take painting classes, she does ceramics and at the end of the evening we occasionally meet at the bicycle stand, we later ended up riding together for part of our way home and then she stopped taking classes. I've always had a soft spot for her and have always been mad at myself for not daring to ask her if we could some time meet. We hadn't even spoken for more than 15 minutes. I didn't even know her name. And last Friday, we've been talking for over an hour. We said goodbye five time. We laughed, she cried (when she explained why she had to stop taking classes), we laughed again and everything felt OK. I know her name now and have her number and we will meet after my exams ...

As for the woman I've been agonizing over the last few months ... we had our normal rides home. We've been on stage together (OMG - I'm going to be onstage for a few hundred people), and after she took me to a birthday party of a friend whom I had never even seen, we've been to a concert yesterday (but she came with a friend who also fancies her and she has been talking a few times about how he's a nice friend but nothing more and how she is hesitant to go to workshops etc because he is doing it solely for her). She talked about still suffering from her last breakup (so my intuition about not moving too fast is probably right). But there is also a down side: we planned to go on tango weekend in september but she feels guilty towards the person I am taking classes with so she plans on going with the friend mentioned above. She asked if I preferred dancing with her (in general) over my lesson partner and as the other guy was around, I was to shy to say yes but she made a remark that the look on my face was quite clear. And to end the story: on the way home she asked which day I had time to go for a run (which she declined last week, which send my thoughts off in a downward spiral) ...

I think in the current situation, she is mostly involved in "not being alone" too much. Sadly, for me she is somebody in whom I see a lot of potential but it will never happen.

On a positive note: this tango dancing does a lot of good for me. I feel I am more open, more free in social contact than I have ever been, it even replaces the mountainbiking I had to give up and I am more confident than before (but given where I started out confidence-wise, that is still not saying much). It is just meeting this one person and my anxiety for a possible/probable rejection that often makes it hard to pack my shoes and leave the house.

And I should focus on my exams ...

Last edited by pliepla; May 29, 2023 at 03:43 AM..
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Default Jun 01, 2023 at 03:16 AM
  #67
Should I give up on love/life altogether?

After all, I am alone and lonely and nobody seems to see anything positive in me. I do a lot of things, meet a lot of peope but that is all very superficial and when I come home, it is as if the loneliness weighs double.

I've had a relationship when I was 25 until I was 28. Then I have been single for 8 years. After that a toxic relationship that lasted from 36 until 46 and a year after that a relationship that lasted allmost a year. That is my entire history. I have been single and lonely for most of my adult life. I obviously lack the appeal to have somebody fall for me, the social skills (not the mention the sexual expertise) to enter in a relationship and keep it going. But with an average life expectancy of still another 35 years ... it seems hard to have to live this nightmare for so long.

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Default Jun 01, 2023 at 06:14 AM
  #68
I think your story isn’t so uncommon, I think relationships aren’t easy for many people. I don’t think however you should think negatively about yourself because of this.

How about looking at yourself more kindly as a person who has value in themselves rather than what others think of them?
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Default Jun 01, 2023 at 07:11 AM
  #69
“ I obviously lack the appeal to have somebody fall for me, the social skills (not the mention the sexual expertise) to enter in a relationship and keep it going. ”
^
Are you sure all these are true, or is it that you lack confidence? Can these skills be learned and improved? Would improving these skills give you the confidence you need?

It’s funny how I think of movies to apply to situations. On your tango thread, I had mentioned Saturday Night Fever. On this thread, it reminds me of another great film, Swingers. Have you seen it? I think you’d like it because it’s also about Swing dancing. It’s about a man gaining confidence with women, and getting over an ex. I recommend watching these films because they really demonstrate a message that I can’t explain as well. Especially the part where Vince Vaughn tells John Favreau ‘She’s just a bunny and you are a wolf’. The message is to not overthink it so much that it stifles you with women.

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Default Jun 01, 2023 at 08:28 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Discombobulated View Post
How about looking at yourself more kindly as a person who has value in themselves rather than what others think of them?
I find that position hard to maintain when I am the only one who tries to value me. And at every encounter with somebody whom I fancy that leads to nothing, I only see a confirmation of my lack of intrinsic value. I try to compensate my unworthiness with doing all the things that I currently do.

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“ I obviously lack the appeal to have somebody fall for me, the social skills (not the mention the sexual expertise) to enter in a relationship and keep it going. ”
^
Are you sure all these are true, or is it that you lack confidence? Can these skills be learned and improved? Would improving these skills give you the confidence you need?
Who's to tell? Also, how could I learn to improve these skills? I'm comfortable with superficial social contact (but that is not what makes me happy, if anything, it emphasizes my loneliness) but I don't really have that many encounters that I want to take to a next level so I have little opportunity to practice.
And as for sexuality: I am sure to disappoint. Everybody has had more partners than I have, has more experience, has more skill etc. I don't fancy the idea of going to a prostitute to practice. But that might not be what you mean.

I will keep the movies in mind, but I should spend most of my times studying in the near future so these might not be the best idea (ironically I spend some of my time here ...)

Last edited by pliepla; Jun 01, 2023 at 09:05 AM..
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Default Jun 01, 2023 at 09:21 AM
  #71
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I find that position hard to maintain when I am the only one who tries to value me. And at every encounter with somebody whom I fancy that leads to nothing, I only see a confirmation of my lack of intrinsic value. I try to compensate my unworthiness with doing all the things that I currently do.
You use words like ‘unworthiness’ why do you think you’re unworthy? Why do you feel you lack intrinsic value?
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Default Jun 02, 2023 at 12:30 PM
  #72
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You use words like ‘unworthiness’ why do you think you’re unworthy? Why do you feel you lack intrinsic value?
I feel inadequate in everything I do. On a rational level, I know that is not necessarily true. I know some feel priviliged to dance with me, it does not feel that way. I know most people are in awe when they see my paintings. For me, they feel merely ok. I know that studying at a University with one foot still in a depression is quite a feat. I feel like a failure because I have to spread my program over two years.. So there is always the discrepancy between knowing and feeling. I sometimes think seeing this is something to build upon but I always end up trying to achieve more.

Where does this come from? Well, I was bullied (and quite violently too) in primary school. Then I had a father who wanted me to study something specific and who made sure I failed in everything I tried before that, making me insecure about my world view, my abilities, ... . I ended up in a master where I was in constant conflict with my peers, professors etc. because I shared nothin with them (and I believe my anxiety involving building up social bonds largely stems from there). At the same time - and continuing after my father died shortly before graduation - my mother was very abusive (verbally). Then I had two partners, who were very demeaning. The first one cheated on me for two thirds of our relationship the second probably not but she was more manipulative and dominating.

On top of that, the constant failure to build up friendships and - especially - romantic relationships not only makes me insecure whether I pick the right tone, get involved with the right people etc., but it also reaffirms that I am not good enough.
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Default Jun 02, 2023 at 02:13 PM
  #73
It sounds like you have two goals, generally speaking:

1. Feel adequate.

2. Do well.

It sounds like you are achieving goal 2. You are doing well, but you are not achieving goal 1. You still feel inadequate.

You explained why you feel inadequate. It has everything to do with your background. No doubt you understand that trying to make yourself feel adequate is a very difficult task, given that background.

I wonder if you could drop feeling adequate as a goal.

I wonder if you could focus on doing well on goals you want to accomplish--and tell the voices of inadequacy "there you go again, you are the endless background noise that I am not taking to heart."

Last edited by Bill3; Jun 02, 2023 at 04:14 PM..
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Default Jun 03, 2023 at 02:38 PM
  #74
I really like Bill’s advice and it’s something that I can apply to myself too.

I just want to say I see you as a worthy person far more than adequate but my opinion should not matter.
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Default Jun 04, 2023 at 05:35 AM
  #75
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I wonder if you could drop feeling adequate as a goal.

I wonder if you could focus on doing well on goals you want to accomplish--and tell the voices of inadequacy "there you go again, you are the endless background noise that I am not taking to heart."
Sounds like a very ACT-y thing to do. I do believe this can be valueable but at the moment I do quite the opposite, deriding myself for being in love, pointing out in the harshest terms that I will never stand a chance with her and speaking these ideas out loud. I am probably harder to myself than anyone has ever been. I have a long way to go but it is probably a better approach than attempting to actively remember what I am doing well when I have a good day.

Would meditating help me with that? I used to feel better when meditating years ago but with the current unrest in my head, I am scared to start this anew.
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Default Jun 05, 2023 at 03:24 PM
  #76
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I do quite the opposite
I submit that this talk is not "you" speaking, but rather represents the collective voices of your abusers throughout the years. It sounds like these people have always been brutal to you, and have gotten themselves internalized into your mind.

I do think that a good plan is to notice ("there you go again") but ignore these endless abusers, and not take them to heart.

Quote:
it is probably a better approach than attempting to actively remember what I am doing well when I have a good day.
I'm not proposing that you think about what has gone well. I'm proposing rather that you focus on doing well, go about your day doing well, as best you can, and that you avoid dwelling on any thoughts, negative or positive.

I don't know if meditation would help. ACT does have a major mindfulness component. It might be worth looking into that in more detail?

For example, go to:

What is ACT and Mindfulness? Find Out Here | ACT Mindfully

and then go ten lines down from the top, to

Quote:

To download a simple, non-technical article on Mindfulness Without Meditation, click here

and click on the link.
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Default Jun 06, 2023 at 07:56 AM
  #77
I read a book, “The Happiness Trap” that is based on what Bill is saying. Yes, it is ACT. Reading it may be helpful for you. The concept is recognizing you are having the negative inner voice (the inner critic), and without judgment, recognizing it and releasing yourself from it.

As for developing better social, intimacy, sexual skills… It may come down to it’s more about how you feel about your skills than how they actually are. What is the meter that we use to judge our abilities? I feel it is our perception of the reactions we get from other people. For example: Two people have sex. One person says immediately following, “That was the best sex I ever had.” Now the other person feels confident they are good at sex. We can surmise the one who said it was the best ever, had a physical response that was very gratifying (climax). But aside from the obvious, it is very subjective as to exactly what was done that made it the best sex ever. No two people may have felt the same.

I think the act of over-thinking in social/intimate situations is poisonous to the primal emotions released within when having these interactions. Without much thought, the exchange would have felt more gratifying and positive, imperfect as it was. When giving it too much anxious thought, too much striving for idealistic perfection, that ensures the essential feeling of good, satisfaction, contentment cannot just be, cannot be achieved and will always feel elusive.

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Default Jun 08, 2023 at 09:31 AM
  #78
I am really struggling to give up on this one woman. I often feel good when I see her, sometimes even optimistic (like when talking with three people and noticing that it has only been the two of us that were conversing for a large part of the time) but the day after - or two days after - I consistently crash as the constrast with the loneliness I experience at home is too big. I am also considering quitting tango dancing. It seems absurd to me to spend all my free time in that context when nobody is interested in me (at least not beyond my dancing skills), especially if I am still hoping to find a partner some day. But I have no clue what I should do instead.

I am seriously considering a mail-order bride as that will probably turn out to be the only option for me. I can't seem to accept being lonely for the next 35 years to come (I am trying really hard though), but maybe that is too much to ask of any person anyway.

As for ACT, mindfulness etc. ... I have my first exam tomorrow and should be studying until Jun 27. I have seen ACT work for a number of people, sadly I was introduced to the concept in a context that was not favourable.
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Default Jun 13, 2023 at 04:58 AM
  #79
It is so hard to let this situation go. Especially as I don't feel there are any real alternatives. And I will probably need a few years to recover from this. I can't imagine I am able to endure this loneliness for another year, let alone more (or probably even the rest of my life). Some events of the last week ...

On Friday we watched the film of our show in the dance school. After that we went to a small tango event. Same people as usual but in a different setting. There, I danced with another lady - as is normal in these events - and sat aside, talking with her for half an hour. After that, we danced again. Now the one person I am so in love with, appeared to be keeping an eye on me (but that could just be my taking my hopes for reality of course). After that, she came to sit next to me to talk. We usually talk after dancing. We danced and she asked me to accompany her to a workshop next Saturday (yesterday she said she was not sure, she is recovering from depression too and does not always have the energy and I understand that).

We met again on Sunday afternoon for an advanced workshop. And there, something a bit ambiuous happened. We are currently in a heat wave so it was very hot. I made a remark about my reluctance to dance when I am all sweaty. She said that is usually not a point. But then ... she told me she really likes me a lot (yay!) but also said that she regretted that I am not always wearing a fresh t-shirt. In fact I was, and I told her I was surprised, I mean, I do take a shower before dancing, I brush my teeth and I started wearing my hair in a ponytail because it is less hot. I also admitted that I don't always have the chance to change shirts on Mondays because I often have classes until late and and on those occasions, I have the choice between dancing in my day-old shirt or not dancing at all. She seemed to be understanding. We discussed tips on cleaning the washing machine and adding a little soda to the cycle. She also talked about her ex who had the same problem and that he was happy with her tips because after that, he thought his children smelled much better. So all this set me off ruminating like, is this really a breaking point? Did I ruin my chances? Does really liking me a lot mean anything, or was it just a way to bring the harsh new in a slightly less painful manner?
Sunday evening, we had our regular dancing class. I had in the meanwhile followed her advice. We rode home, just as we usually do and I told her my washing machine was in the process of being cleaned as we spoke.
Assuming this will lead nowhere, I do wonder whether I did handle this in a sensible manner as I might learn something that can be beneficial in future situations. Was I right in accepting the unpleasant message, pointing out what I already did and that I was surprised and pointing out that I gave heed to her irritation.

Then we met again on Monday (yesterday). When she arrived, I was talking to the same lady I was talking to on Friday. As soon as she had gotten into her dancing shoes, she came to invite me. I politely declined: songs are played in blocks or 3 or 4, grouped logically by orchestra, singer and period and the current block of songs was already in its last song. That was OK as she had just entered and had no idea the last song was already playing (and honestly, somebody told me to not be too eager, that plays its part too). The lady I was talking to made a remark about me - as a man - being invited (which is not customary). After that, I went to invite my crush and we danced as we usually do the last few weeks. Most often, people dance at a slight distance. A few weeks back she did however point out that she wanted to dance in close embrace with me (and that means that you make contact over the entire length of your body) but that she is recluctant because my (curly) hair would be in her mouth (hence too the pony tail) and that I had to work on my posture (which I was already doing for months but dancing a little stooped is an old habit many people have and which is often not correct so it is hard to constantly maintain a good posture. I am extremely motivated now ). We even closed the evening and danced for a second time (she normally prefers to dance with as many people as possible and so do I because you get to learn more although I must admit that I do have an inclination to dance a little more often with her).

In my thinking, I have given up on this situation. Emotionally, I clearly haven't. But I am constanty wondering whether I might have learned something in case I might ever meet somebody whom I feel the same way towards.

But honestly, I don't believe I will ever find somebody. I think my anxiety is too great (partly because it has gone untreated for years) and I don't fancy the idea of growing old in this loneliness. Next year, I will normally graduate. It will give me access to a well-paying job (people say that is supposed to make things easier) but I don't believe this will help me with the difficultly I experience on a social level. I have kind of set a deadline: if I don't have a relationship by the time I graduate, I believe it is time to draw my conclusions. A job, a company car and whatever it brings me wont give me confidence in social situations (especially when feelings of love are involved).

And then there is this friend who pointed out that being too eager could set her off ... she proposed to get together to make some pictures and "optimize" a tinder profile. But I do have my doubts as I have previously egxperienced online dating as quite toxic (nobody is ever really honest for instance), I doubt whether I will meet a match there (a few years ago, there was a book in which that author argued that dating apps benefit from having you match "almost" as it gives you enough of an incentive to return and you do have to return because as long don't really match). To me, it seems like trying out as many people as possible for a few months and to move on if you don't fall in love. I hate the prospect of being dumped 4 times a year (and even less so the prospect of having to end a relationship myself). Also, I am not sure if I have the energy ...

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Default Jun 13, 2023 at 01:40 PM
  #80
Look for a lonely, insecure woman and give her a chance. Maybe your standards are too high.
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