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Confused May 30, 2023 at 12:20 PM
  #1
My fiancé and I have been together for almost 13 years. He's a great human being, has a heart of gold and is always there for everyone he loves, including me. Overall, I think we've had a decent relationship with good memories, and have built a decent life together. However, our relationship has long struggled with recurrent conflicts and arguments, often for things that really don't matter.

He has untreated ADHD, which I didn't realize until last year how this impacts his life, his emotions and the way he executes things. Recently, he started seeing a therapist after I insisted he needed to seek help for his ADHD and for what seemed to be depression, but turns out to be anxiety. I've been seeing a therapist on my end as well for the past 1.5 year, and have done so in the past to treat my anxiety and panic attacks, which I have under control now.

Last night it downed on me that he might also struggle with anger issues. It has been tricky to figure this out because literature always describes these things to include abuse and violence, but he never gets violent with me, insults me or threatens me at all: he doesn't make me feel afraid or unsafe, and I know he would never lay a finger on me. But he has difficulty regulating his emotions, and often gets exasperated over anything on a daily basis (life, noises, job, relatives, me, politics, incidents, driving, news, career, small inconveniences, etc), and his verbal berating can be exhausting. I don't consider myself an angry person, but when we started living together 2 years into our relationship, I developed this defense mechanism to match his energy in order to defend myself whenever he yells at me. We can get into shouting matches that are useless because we talk over the other without listening, we can get disrespectful towards the other, and it just becomes an overall toxic dynamic that leads nowhere. This doesn't come naturally to me, though, so while he has the ability to just release his anger/frustration and go back to feeling totally normal again as if nothing had happened, I am left feeling totally depleted. I have never been able to get used to this. And what bugs me the most is that I know this is not who I am, especially since he's the only person I've ever had this dynamic with.

On three separate occasions during our relationship, his berating has pushed me to a limit where I have punched a surface to make it stop. This weekend was one of those moments, and this time my frustration was very particular because I planned this Memorial weekend so that we could relax and enjoy a getaway, but in the back of my head I worried about things getting spoiled over a stupid argument, and eventually it happened — not once, but twice. Obviously, hitting a surface/anything is not right, but I've only done it in moments where the intensity of the argument becomes too much, and I just want it to stop but words won't do, so hitting a surface halts the argument immediately.

This time, he said that we have the right to verbally express anger (as if saying anything goes as long as it remains verbal), but there is no right to punch things; that's where he draws the limit (insinuating that he will break up with me over this if it happens again). But my question is: what is the verbal limit, then? Can he really have the freedom to berate me and expect me to just take it? I am not saying that my actions are right or justified, and obviously I don't want this to happen again, but there must be a limit to verbal anger. As of now, we agreed on a safe word to avoid arguments escalating to a point where they become too much, let's see if that works...

Thoughts? I feel sad, lost and confused. But more than anything, I am tired. Still, I love him deeply and want to make it work.
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Default May 30, 2023 at 12:35 PM
  #2
You say he berates you, but he never insults you. That doesnt make sense. Which is it?

Maybe he needs an anger management course? It sounds like making YOU upset, makes HIM feel better. And now he's blaming you for getting upset and threatening you? Thats b.s.
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Default May 30, 2023 at 03:06 PM
  #3
True anger doesn't need berating someone to express it. True anger focuses on the thing that causes the anger & expresses those thoughts in a rational manor without emitions leading to berating to ever get involved. Been there done that myself.

My now ex thought sarcasm was a funny & cute thing to do right after we first got married. Ok....when challenged like that can throw it back with the best of them....but for me, doing that for awhile made me feel horrible. After a few months of dealing with it I finally set my boundary & said enough. You want to live like that go live elsewhere because I REFUSE to tolerate it any more. It seriously took him about a year to slowly stop this behavior with my remindings every time he did it & my not throwing sarcasm back in his face. It was put down sarcasm & I knew he was not smarter or wiser than me ever.

Over 33 years we were married he did things that kept driving up my anger & I would blow up like a pressure cooker just to keep my sanity.....it finally got so bad I was actually seeing red (not just a saying) every time I had to deal with him. I got to the point I hated him & didn't care how I expressed my anger by the time I left. Fast forward 11 years & lots of good therapy, when I finally saw him again before a court case I had against him, we were able to sit down & discuss rationally the things that had made me angry & the things that still did but without the anger emotion being in charge.

Yes, it sounds like your fiance has anger issues & never learned the skills needed to express himself in a truly functional way. His dysfunctional expression of anger leads to your own dysfunctional way of responding & 2 wrongs never make a right & do nothing but tear relationships apart.

Would I ever go back to my ex after learning skills to deal with my anger??.......NEVER. I know that even knowing my skills to be more functional if I were constantly pushed by the things he does 24/7. my anger would build up again if my life were forced to again deal with those things which in my case negatively impacted my life.

Relationships are a huge challenge & sometimes we have to come to a point of determining if they really are worth it (& love has nothing to do with that). Our own well being must be our priority.

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Default May 30, 2023 at 04:33 PM
  #4
You're in a very toxic relationship at best. Yes, your fiance has anger issues and you are his emotional punching bag. It sounds like verbal abuse to me. There should never be berating or yelling matches going on in a healthy relationship dynamic. Unfortunately, these issues rarely, if ever, improve or change. It's abuse.

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Default May 31, 2023 at 12:06 PM
  #5
He "[...] never gets violent with me, insults me or threatens me at all" yet he berates you, yells at you and gets into these screaming matches?!

And no, he doesn't have the freedom to "verbally berate" you and expect you to take it. You are allowing him, and giving him permission, to yell and verbally berate you.

The difference here is that he placed a limit on what he finds unacceptable (don't hit things) whereas you are not placing any limits on how he treats you and accepting his verbal violence.
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Default May 31, 2023 at 04:22 PM
  #6
That's blunt, but there needs to be standards set in what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior and treatment of you.

I recall when my ex husband first started yelling at me. I told him I would only marry him if he promised not to yell ever again. What happened? He waited until 3 days before our wedding to explode on me in a sheer rage. I almost broke up and walked away then and should have. But I didn't. I chose to give him a chance and rolled the die. Well, after marriage, the yelling and screaming, knock down drag out most toxic fights ever ensued from there, almost on a weekly basis. I knew it was toxic, I would put my foot down often and would tell him, this is unacceptable. I was stuck in a bad situation due to finances unfortunately.

He also berated me. I was in a highly toxic and abusive marriage that lasted nearly four years, because he kept promising change and dangling the change carrot in front of me.

This guy? His behavior and treatment of you should be deemed as entirely unacceptable. He does not treat you with respect, which is what is necessary in a HEALTHY relationship. I would get out now before it gets worse. Statistically, abuse ALWAYS escalates over time, and that has been my experience as well.

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Default May 31, 2023 at 05:38 PM
  #7
I think your fiance has maturity issues.

No, it's not okay to go verbally off the deep end over all the many things in life that don't go exactly as we would like. Your guy seems to have low tolerance for frustration.

Being berated as you describe must get pretty old. That can really ruin the quality of your life. It is a form of abuse. I'm not sure how you can effectively deal with this. You hitting a surface doesn't sound like a good longterm solution to this toxic behavior. Don't get hung up on trying to decide what diagnosic label to hang on these outbursts. Focus on the behavior. I don't often recommend couples' therapy, but it might be an intervention worth trying for the two of you. Him seeing a therapist by himself probably won't have much impact on his immature tendency to throw fits and blast away at you.

The good news is that, since you describe him as a decent guy, he might be open to making a behavioral change. He is not realizing how he is coming across. He is failing to hear how petulant and obnoxious he sounds.

Maybe see if you could record him when he's throwing a tantrum. Then, when he is all calmed down and not angry, tell him you need him to hear himself. He might be surprised.
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Default May 31, 2023 at 08:03 PM
  #8
Going by what you described here, yes, to me, the anger being directed onto you personally is an issue, for you both. Some relationships seem kind of okay with a little angry talk, they accept it, because I assume it doesn't really effect them all that much. But if this anger is really bumming you out, then there is an issue there, yes. That's how I look at it. For me as a sensitive person, anger in me (I do say I have issues with too much angry energy sometimes, especially if aggression, real or perceived, is placed on me) can be corrosive to relationships and corrosive to my mind and soul, so I do look upon it as an 'issue' or simply as an area of the self to work on, if better, healthier relationships are what you would like to have. Also, yes, anger emotion and violence are two separate things. Very much so. But neither are obviously particularly 'happy' things to have to deal with.🙏

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Default May 31, 2023 at 10:42 PM
  #9
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he's the only person I've ever had this dynamic with
He consistently uses verbal violence on you.

Being with him, and him alone, turns you into someone that you are not.

Why are you with him?
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Default Jun 01, 2023 at 01:52 AM
  #10
Unfortunately individuals that struggle with ADHD are prone to getting frustrated and having angry outbursts or temper tantrums. He needs to find a specialist that can help him learn how to manage these challenges better. These individuals genuinely have a hard time producing normal dopamine so they can get frustrated and genuinely not know what to do.

About 60% of these individuals end up self medicating with alcohol or marijuana or even stimulants like cocaine and tons of coffee in an effort to control how difficult the deficit ADHD presents. They are not purposely trying to abuse instead they need help learning how to manage this condition.

I had two therapists that are married to someone with ADHD and have a child that is ADHD as it is very hereditary. They are not stupid, in fact some can be very intelligent. My therapists wife has a genius IQ. It’s important they engage in a career that is suited for how their mind best works as they are prone to getting bored and can get distracted. Often they are very talented with cooking and many do well in culinary positions.

Our understanding of this challenge is still relatively new so there are many adults getting diagnosed for the first time.
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Default Jun 01, 2023 at 03:31 AM
  #11
You DO need to learn about this challenge before you commit to a long term marriage relationship. These individuals have challenges that may be too difficult for you to deal with long term. Also, it’s important to know it’s hereditary so if you have children it’s very possible that you have a child with this challenge.

You can find some information on YouTube.

It’s very possible he was abused due to this challenge rather then helped so he can thrive better so he may have trauma challenges.

Last edited by Open Eyes; Jun 01, 2023 at 03:49 AM..
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Default Jun 01, 2023 at 06:06 AM
  #12
For the record, and to add to my last post, my abusive ex husband also had untreated ADHD, but it doesn't matter what your fiance's diagnosis is. It really doesn't. What matters is how he treats you and how you feel being around him. It's still abuse, no matter how you slice it, and no matter what his diagnosis is. You do not have to sit around and wait for him to initiate and obtain treatment for his ADHD in order to improve his treatment of you. Even if his ADHD is influencing some of his angry reactions, the constant berating is likely not even linked to his ADHD.

Do you really want to be dealing with this, is the question? You're in for one hell of a ride with someone who is not treating you right.

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Last edited by Have Hope; Jun 01, 2023 at 06:35 AM..
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Default Jun 02, 2023 at 07:56 AM
  #13
At what point did the two of you decide to get engaged during this thirteen year relationship? And where does that stand in terms of setting a date to be married? Are there actual plans in place or is that, for now, just a standing reference?
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Default Jun 02, 2023 at 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by unaluna View Post
You say he berates you, but he never insults you. That doesnt make sense. Which is it?
Simple: he can give me a hard time for things I do or don't do and can be relentless about it. But he doesn't call me names.
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Default Jun 02, 2023 at 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Open Eyes View Post
Unfortunately individuals that struggle with ADHD are prone to getting frustrated and having angry outbursts or temper tantrums. He needs to find a specialist that can help him learn how to manage these challenges better. These individuals genuinely have a hard time producing normal dopamine so they can get frustrated and genuinely not know what to do.

About 60% of these individuals end up self medicating with alcohol or marijuana or even stimulants like cocaine and tons of coffee in an effort to control how difficult the deficit ADHD presents. They are not purposely trying to abuse instead they need help learning how to manage this condition.

I had two therapists that are married to someone with ADHD and have a child that is ADHD as it is very hereditary. They are not stupid, in fact some can be very intelligent. My therapists wife has a genius IQ. It’s important they engage in a career that is suited for how their mind best works as they are prone to getting bored and can get distracted. Often they are very talented with cooking and many do well in culinary positions.

Our understanding of this challenge is still relatively new so there are many adults getting diagnosed for the first time.

I think what you say sounds about right. It hasn't been until these past few years that I have come to understand that him having ADHD is not a meaningless footnote, but it actually affects his whole being.

He was diagnosed when he was young, but has never received real treatment for it, and I can see his parents don't quite see ADHD as a real thing. I recently learned it is a type of neurodiversity, which opened my eyes and now many things about him make sense. It's also the reason why I started telling him he should actually see a therapist to learn more about his condition and himself, and how to manage it.

He is SUPER smart, creative, very sensitive, passionate and empathic (and you're right on, he's a great cook!). But I can see how he has difficulties regulating his emotions and feels them more than the average person... including exasperation, which is the one I have the most trouble with. And looking at his family, I can see that it is also a learned behavior: all of them are intense people who love each other to death, but when they have arguments, they can get over the top and sometimes they even stop talking for a while because they got mad at each other... And they see this as very normal! And I am like "... this is not normal, this is actually kinda toxic".

The thing that I really appreciate about him is that, when he is calm, we can talk about things and he is very receptive to feedback. Sometimes he complains about his family and they way they behave, and when I point out that he behaves in a similar way, he tells me "if I ever do that again, could you just tell me so I can be mindful about it, please?". So his awareness is there, his intention to do better is there... however, he can fall back to his default mode as we humans naturally tend to do. Now that he's finally seeing a therapist, I am hopeful that he can learn more about himself and I can simultaneously learn more about him and how to support a partner that struggles with ADHD. I'm also interested in couple's therapy. We did it once in the past and it was a good experience. Maybe we should try it again as we get to learn more about ourselves individually.
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Default Jun 02, 2023 at 10:18 AM
  #16
He doesn't call you names, is not violent, and doesn't insult you, yet he regularly berates you and yells at you. Berating someone constantly and yelling at them repeatedly does not equate to having a heart of gold or being supportive of you - can you see that? The limit should be no berating, no yelling, and no screaming matches. I would personally set these limits with him, tell him these behaviors are no longer acceptable, and that if he continues, you will leave. Yes, it's an ultimatum, but that's what I would do. A line needs to be drawn.

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Default Jun 02, 2023 at 10:26 AM
  #17
My husband has an outdated notion that he hasn't been abusive because he didn't physically touch me. But emotional and verbal abuse are as bad or worse. To me, that sounds a bit like what you are dealing with. Going around in circles with one or both of you jockeying for control.

Look up 'reactive abuse' as when you get to the point of losing it, that might be what you are dealing with. My DH used to be good at goading me into that place.

Something interesting that I've only learned this last year is the difference between anger and aggression. Anger is a healthy, natural emotion that we feel. Anything we do about it is aggression. So yelling isn't anger, it's aggression. Throwing or hitting an object isn't anger, it's aggression. The distinction is important because anger is something that affects the one person internally and aggression is something that affects others externally.

The end result will be that you can't control him, you can only control yourself. In dealing with him, you'll need very strong boundaries that just put a dead stop to anything he tries to bait you with. Figure out that if you can't reason with him, you're wasting your time and getting sucked into an endless loop. Some people like to argue. My DH is one of those- he likes to argue, he likes to feel like he won, or at least had control. It gives his brain a happy hit. Don't be his drug that keeps it going. ADHD is one of those things where fighting makes certain individuals happy. You can look up "Saturday morning fight syndrome" - it's a thing.

I feel for you.
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Default Jun 02, 2023 at 07:50 PM
  #18
Does he consume alcohol
or self medicate with marijuana?
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Default Jun 03, 2023 at 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted by PapoPez22 View Post

The thing that I really appreciate about him is that, when he is calm, we can talk about things and he is very receptive to feedback. Sometimes he complains about his family and they way they behave, and when I point out that he behaves in a similar way, he tells me "if I ever do that again, could you just tell me so I can be mindful about it, please?". So his awareness is there, his intention to do better is there... however, he can fall back to his default mode as we humans naturally tend to do. Now that he's finally seeing a therapist, I am hopeful that he can learn more about himself and I can simultaneously learn more about him and how to support a partner that struggles with ADHD. I'm also interested in couple's therapy. We did it once in the past and it was a good experience. Maybe we should try it again as we get to learn more about ourselves individually.
My abusive ex husband when calm was receptive to my feedback as well. And even though we had several "heart to heart" conversations about his abusive behaviors towards me, his behavior ultimately did not change. He went to individual therapy and we went to couples therapy for a year. Nothing worked.

I learned after the fact that couples therapy is not suggested for abusers.

Like I said, you are in for one hell of a ride with this man, if you continue to hang onto hope that he will change. My ex husband also grew up with a family that had explosive arguments. Learned behavior is just that.

So, you are now placing yourself into a position of codependency - which is to try and fix, understand, and help someone who is in fact, toxic and harmful to you.

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Last edited by Have Hope; Jun 03, 2023 at 03:56 AM..
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