Changing my responses

This is the oddest thing

This is what I’m feeling, not what I think or what I’m acting on.

I feel lonely, I feel like I’m missing her, I feel like maybe I contributed to this mess, maybe I could get through to her if I tried again, I’m worried for her safety, I’m scared of the pain she can cause me, I’m scared of the disarray she can cause, I’m scared of her showing up here looking for help, I’m scared of her destroying our financial futures., I’m scared that the kids need her and I’ve contributed to the alienation

Thats a very good list.

After i went no-contact with my mother, she was in the hospital a couple of times, and later she died (unrelated to the hospital stays). Each time - even at the wake - i was afraid of getting near her because i feared she would reach out and strike me, breaking my eyeglasses. Then i would be unable to get myself back home.

There had been a couple of times when i was growing up that she had struck me on the head. But most of the times she either ignored me or just pretended to listen to me talking about my day.

Anyway, i was surprised that this was my fear, but i held onto it - i didnt try to reason it away or otherwise bury it. I had the Charlie Brown football feeling too - maybe this time? But she had only ever shamed me (and my brother) and flaunted her upper hand - so i knew my fear was justified.

So yeah - feel your fears. Then courage is "doing it anyway", remember? Not an absence of fear.

It’s good that you are able to vocalize this list ((RD)). I think others can relate and it isn’t easy to step back and see the reality because it can leave a person to feeling very lonely and lost. This especially true for those who are loyal and really want to have a loving relationship.

I have a feeling that given that your mother developed a problem with alcohol you tend to see that challenge based on her. You said at one point that even though your mother was challenged, you knew she loved you. Your mother got help and fought this challenge. This is not what you are facing with your wife. Your wife is disordered and she never really loved you and she may not be capable of loving and caring. Also, when someone uses drugs and alcohol in an effort to regulate their emotions and insecurities, they stop maturing and gaining on their ability to develop healthy ways of dealing with challenges.

What I do know is that when I attended Alanon meetings the people I met were tired and lonely. YOU are not responsible for regulating your wife’s emotions or getting her to WANT to get sober.

Also, while you have these worries you just shared, it’s important to realize your wife doesn’t have these same worries and concerns. It’s unfortunate that your children have to see this reality about your wife. This is what your daughter said to you about her mother.

It’s a challenge to respond other than listen and say you are sorry this is happening. You are ALL learning how to see the reality and go forward in a positive way despite of it. It’s a challenge.

My brother said

Be cautious with your compassion. If she had $100,000 right now she wouldn’t go off and live her life. She’d spend it to ruin you.

I also think that children have a much clearer picture of their parents than we give them credit for.

I know growing up, I didn't want anyone to know that my parents were my parents especially my dad. I avoided being around him as much as possible from as young as I can remember. While at the same time my mom was full of nothing but excuses for his embarrassing behaviors & couldn't understand why I saw things actually more realistically than she did.

Kids that have never had the emotional attachment don't have a strong attachment to that person unless someone feeds them the expectation that they "should". While parents have built up their individual emotional attachment expections of each other before the child is even born. Seriously, the kids usually have a much clearer picture of a bad family situation than the parents do. Good to listen to their wisdom

Your brother is wise.

Ok

Ok

Hear me out

What if….

When I’ve felt stressed out to the max in the past, the way to fix it was to try to express sincere empathy to her and smooth things over. If I got it right, the reward was peace and companionship

I’m stressed out due to finances etc. she’s done stuff that’s hurt me and the kids.

So, this is a strongly conditioned response in me. Try to connect with her thinking empathetically. Reach out to her. Hope for peace and closeness after. Be scared of more hurt if I get it wrong.

I don't see how showing empathy to your former wife can serve to address your current financial problems.

In the past, showing her empathy brought "companionship" as a reward. What kind of companionship can you expect from an ex-wife?

Seems to me that a post-divorce relationship - where kids are involved - is best kept in a business-like way. As co-parents, reality requires you two to communicate. That probably shouldn't involve lengthy exchanges of heartfelt emotion. I think you want to shoot for a courteous tone in communicating with your ex. "Closeness" is no longer on the menu, so to speak.

[QUOTE=Rose76;7428174]I don't see how showing empathy to your former wife can serve to address your current financial problems.

In the past, showing her empathy brought "companionship" as a reward. What kind of companionship can you expect from an ex-wife?


I'm not saying it's a rational response. It's not. It's an emotional response that's been conditioned into me for years and years.

My stress and anxiety went up with these financial hits last week. I'm suddenly feeling empathy for her and wondering if there is a way to make peace. That's not rational. I'm trying to figure out the source of that.

RDMercer

You can divorce, or you can "make peace." You have to pick one.

You know the response to placate her is illogical and irrational so why are you trying to rationalize it? Nobody is saying you have to be mean but you need to hold your boundaries and let her deal with the fallout of her own behavior. As your brother says, if she had the power she would vituperate you.

Quote:

When I’ve felt stressed out to the max in the past, the way to fix it was to try to express sincere empathy to her and smooth things over. If I got it right, the reward was peace and companionship⁸

It might have appeased your stress but it NEVER FIXED the CAUSE or you wouldn't be where you are today.

I still think in terms of investment. Your ROI with YOUR sincere empathy only gained you momentary return. When I invest anything I expect long term gain not short term.

Your empathy was like playing the slot machines at vegas. You put in empathy hoping for a return but only a few coins trickled out to keep you playing & investing empathy, hoping & hoping that you would hit the jackpot that was never part of the programming on the machine (your wife) you were gambling on

I'm just trying to figure out the source of these feelings.

Telling they are illogical doesn't do anything. I know they're illogical. That's why I'm trying to figure out the source of them.


People experience things like anxiety, depression, phobias, hallucinations.... Telling them those feeling are irrational isn't the point. Typically, people know those feelings are irrational.

I want these feelings to change, so I'm going to examine them and try and figure out the source.


This speaks to me:
Your empathy was like playing the slot machines at vegas. You put in empathy hoping for a return but only a few coins trickled out to keep you playing & investing empathy, hoping & hoping that you would hit the jackpot that was never part of the programming on the machine (your wife) you were gambling on

Except..... That early on there were big payouts in that she WAS a good partner in the start, and very rarely there were other significant payouts in thoughtfulness, etc.

But that is all part of the "hook" of intermittent reinforcement.

But it's left me conditioned to try to make peace and placate her when I'm stressed.

And I'm also scared of inflaming things worse. The thing is, I don't know where her "off" switch is. Once I start actually fighting back, I can see her becoming venomously angry, and I'm conditioned to be scared of the emotional pain and disruption she can cause me.

What you are describing is exactly what a relationship with a narcissist is like. They don’t love, they are looking for a feed and they can’t regulate their emotions so they like to USE someone empathetic for that. You learned that the only way to feel safe is when she was satisfied in some way. This is codependency and she had your children do the same.

It all revolves around HER. Add her abuse of alcohol and that just compounds the problem. Alcohol abuse creates varying moods and as far as anxiety goes, alcohol abuse only makes the condition worse.

You don’t have the user mentality. You don’t like the power game and prefer to contribute to an overall positive. You try to keep things honest.

You developed an intense desire to win over your wife and you allowed her to treat you badly. That really bothered your oldest son and your daughter. Your son is so happy that you have been learning to stand up for yourself. Children get very upset if the witness a parent being abused.

I can relate to the feelings you describe and it’s taken me a while to learn to understand where my own emotional challenges come from. I know all about wanting the genuine love relationship and wanting to do what’s needed to accomplish that. I have learned some very hard lessons.

I do know that it’s important to listen and observe because people do tell you who they are.

Hiring a divorce lawyer isn't cheap. Try to get your money's worth out of the one you hired. Financial negotiations should probably be delegated to attorneys. Let your attorney tell you when your input is needed. Follow the advice of counsel on how to best insulate your financial affairs from her reckless ways with money, at least going forward.

You probably should not be initiating contact with her, other than in a businesslike way, as absolutely necessary.

Divorce is not a walk in the park for anyone. There's bound to be scarey aspects to it. The only way that might be less true is if neither party has any money and there's no joint assets and no children are involved. That's not your situation, so it would be very strange, if you felt carefree in the midst of all this. That would not be normal.

Your feelings will change, when your circumstances change. Only time will bring that about.

Personally, I've never been persuaded that feelings can be changed by analyzing them. Maybe that's just me.

Another thing to keep in mind is that none of us gets to control outcomes. We do the best we can with our inputs. Then fate, or God, or chance enters the picture, and you see where you're at. You can't deal with an outcome, until it presents itself. Prior to that, we don't know what the outcome is going to be. Where there is uncertainty, there will be anxiety. Where there is the risk of loss, there will be fear.

I very much appreciate these three new thoughtful replies!

This isn’t producing the same level of stress or anxiety that it would have months ago.

I’m stressed, but I’m ok.

Which is crazy to say…. I just swallowed a $5000 loss and my stress is NOT at panic level at all.

I’m scared of the feelings of gaslighting I get when I interact with her, and I’m scared of her ability to cause me emotional pain. I’m scared of her ability to cause me to act out-of-character, to prod a response from me, and THEN to act like the victim.

Things are good. Life is good.

RDMercer

After leaving my stress was always "what stupid thing is he going to do next that I am going to have to deal with".

Only thing that really saved me from more stress was the 2100 miles between us. However it is harder to deal with legal issues from a far distance. When I changed my phone number to my new location he didn't get the # & my daughter honored my wish not giving it to him but he has my email & never communicated via email or my lawyers. Good or bad, I think he was clueless that I am really good at finding out facts from that far away without him even knowing I know

I feel for you in that you have had to deal with someone you love having substance abuse problems all your life. It’s VERY hard because drunk or sober this disease/disorder always comes first. The person with the disease disorder has problems regulating their emotions and if you grow up with this challenge in your home environment you don’t really ever feel safe. It’s not something one can always put into words. It becomes familiar and it’s not really discussed, just one of those secrets one can’t really talk about.

Your wife has chosen to put her disease/disorder first. It can be cold and it can hurt every family member. Your wife has also been stealing money from her own children because she needs the money to support her substance abuse DISORDER and this disorder has many narcissistic behaviors to it. Narcissists can’t regulate their emotions and they take it out on others.