Changing my responses

"When your dad says things that are just like WTF, when you find yourself questioning why any human being would say that to you, that's your sign to end the conversation. And that's not a negotiation. It sounds to me like your father isn't a "safe" person for this kind of discussion anyhow"

Yes, I totally agree.

Recently dad went into a long tirade about the living hell he went through during the years mom was drinking.

I said, "You've been saying that for 30 years. Did you ever once, ever, ask what it was like for anyone else in the house?"

"Ah, RD. Why can't you just let bygones be bygones. Why do you keep dragging up the past?"

Then he tells my mom this, and she's wondering why I can't let go of the past!

I'M NOT THE ANGRY ONE AND I'M NOT THE CRAZY ONE!

Dang..... Now I look angry and crazy.

RDMercer

So first of all, to THEM you look angry and crazy, and do you care what they think about you? That's the other part of the equation of advocating for yourself. Do you really care what this man thinks about you? Doesn't sound like someone whose opinion you'd really want anyhow.

And back to the conversation, when he opened with his complaints about your mom's drinking, that's a good way to understand the bait. You have to use medium-chill or grey rock, or whatever it is with these people. So when they get into their complaints, you can't have an actual conversation with them.

A grey rock response would be: "Yes, I understand that was hard for you, you've mentioned it before."

No reference to you, and no encouragement to go on. You could also, if you're smooth enough, ask a question to change the subject, like "so what did you do this weekend?"

But these people are never going to care how you feel. So if you do want to continue any kind of contact without falling for the bait, it's always about redirecting back to them and not giving them any opening to turn the conversation on you.

Part of the reason you can’t let go is because you have relived your past in your own relationship. Your wife, like your mother is an alcoholic.

Your parents are still together. How old are they?

And despite that your mom has stopped drinking, your dad is still a codependent enabler. He is what you would be if you had stayed with your ex wife.

I know you want strong family connections, but sometimes we just have to accept that our family unhealthy and the only kind of connection we can have is a superficial one. We can care for them but not get too involved.

I've been no contact with my biological father since 2015, I think. Well, there were a few limited moments of contact at my uncle's funeral a few years later. I can't have contact with him because he is unsafe and dangerous. But if his care came down on me, I would make sure he was taken care of in a safe nursing home. I wouldn't visit. But I'd make sure he's at least taken care of. Sometimes that's the most of a connection is safe.

I don't know what it's like with your parents. But it sounds like you'd have a better, more enjoyable relationship with LESS contact and without getting into anything deep in your life.

Yeah, repetition compulsion is much more likely than limerance, i would say. I was going to say yesterday that it sounded like your dad was jealous of you, but i didnt understand why. Now i see it. "The sins of the father are visited upon the son." Not ON PURPOSE, they just ARE; like its inescapable that you meet with the same fate if the problems are not resolved in the prior generation.

Eta - armorplate - great story about DD and MIL. Now i see why your name!

Oh heck.... ArmorPlate isn't THAT tough.

Kinda like an M&M. Hard boundary, but soft inside.

"Can't see the truth from their viewpoint"....

This is something that drives me crazy. When you are gaslit so, so much, for so long, you get pretty defensive about "truth"

I'm left going.... "How can this be truth from my VIEWPOINT??? IT'S JUST TRUE!"

Example:
"Dad, quit bible thumping and just talk and be accountable."

"I don't bible thump, and I've never failed to be accountable, or take you back no matter what you've done to me. Just like in the story of the Prodigal Son. You're always welcomed home."

"Dad.... That is bible thumping, and you haven't accepted any accountability."

"I don't say anything about the bible. Quit putting words in my mouth."

Quote:

Originally Posted by RDMercer Oh heck.... ArmorPlate isn't THAT tough. Kinda like an M&M. Hard boundary, but soft inside. "Can't see the truth from their viewpoint".... This is something that drives me crazy. When you are gaslit so, so much, for so long, you get pretty defensive about "truth" I'm left going.... "How can this be truth from my VIEWPOINT??? IT'S JUST TRUE!" Example: "Dad, quit bible thumping and just talk and be accountable." "I don't bible thump, and I've never failed to be accountable, or take you back no matter what you've done to me. Just like in the story of the Prodigal Son. You're always welcomed home." "Dad.... That is bible thumping, and you haven't accepted any accountability." "I don't say anything about the bible. Quit putting words in my mouth."

Sadly when parents are like that it is better to say nothing than to respond. I only kinda liarned that when my parents were alive....but when my mom would hang up on me when I irritated her, I never called her back. Left it that way till she sorted things out in her own mind then she would call in a week or so as if nothing ever happened. I just let her deal with her stupid attempts at manipulating me that never worked. She never learned though & kept trying all her life.

Um - girls dont know that! Armorplate sounds tough. And hey it got the job done!

Prodigal son isnt bible thumping? Uh... im speechless!

Your thread reminds me of a Melanie Beattie quote I saw recently (paraphrased): " You cannot simultaneously set a boundary and tend to the other person's feelings."

If you need to put down a healthy boundary, you need to, but then you can't go on to try and justify yourself and placate them. And it might be uncomfortable, because a lot of us don't like doing that. We want everything to be okay and for everyone to be on the same page. Thing with narcissists, though, they do not want to be on the same page as you, so you'll never get resolution with them.

Another thing about narcissists, they don't like boundaries. Boundaries to the narcissist are like closed doors to cats- an absolutely unacceptable condition. They will trample your boundaries for nothing more than the sake of remaining in control. They don't care about your feelings

Rather than talk to him about something like why you won't date, maybe you just say, "I'll date when I'm ready." And leave it at that. He'll probably interpret that as hostile- because that's what they do- but at least with something like that you maintain a little more control of your space. You, unfortunately, have to have a bit of a thick skin if youre going to remain in contact with a narc.

I'll give you an example from my life: my MIL is very shameless and without boundaries. So much so that when DD got her own phone, she didn't want Grandma to have the number, for fear of the demands, guilt, and generally shameless behavior that she could perpetrate through the phone. Since DD didn't have the maturity or feel comfortable setting the boundary, I did it. Her phone is for safety. school work, and communicating with her friends about school- or that's how I left it with MIL. No justification, just a boundary. I've since gotten nasty, entitled texts from MIL (she's my granddaughter, I have a right to her phone number ). I don't justify the boundary just stick to it. As DD gets older, and gets ever better at enforcing her own boundaries, she can make decisions about how she wants to interact with grandma.

But here's the thing- what do you think she says about me? I'm controlling and manipulative. I drive wedges between people and cause problems. That's fine. It's not true, but she's never going to see the truth from my viewpoint, so there's no reason to waste time trying to make her see that. I put down the boundary for DD's sake and we'll being, now MIL has to deal with her own feelings. Out of my lane. I'm staying in my own lane.

Learning to deal with people who behave that way is a learned skill. Be gentle and patient with yourself, and you'll learn new, more effective ways of dealing with them. But mostly just take care of yourself and your immediate family, and recognize that his thoughts and opinions are just that..

She has already included texts between her, family, and friends in court.

It sounds magical. It's more like.... Unlikely.... Not magical.

Okay, but from what you described of your last court date, those things never get entered into the record. Your wife is the Alina Habba (trump attorney) of irrelevant and ignored court statements.

Its very easy to - whats the word? masticate? perseverate? Go around in circles in your mind. Obsess. I cant think of the word. As Cher said to nic cage, "Snap out of it!"

ITA about remaining vigilant.

One of the books I read, about dealing with a borderline person, talked a bit about legal cases where a borderline completely manipulated the legal system in their favor. Definitely don't get complacent, make sure your bases are covered, but don't wear yourself out over possibilities either.

I agree about taking some space for yourself and separating yourself from the toxicity of it- even if only for a while.

You've got enough going on in life without giving him/them unavailable space. At the moment, what you think, feel, and do is so much more important than what they think, feel, or do.

Do you identify with being the scapegoat? If so, what's happened isn't the end, it's potentially just part of being cast in that role . A dysfunctional family system needs a scapegoat. That system without a scapegoat is like a house without a trash can-- where do you dump your garbage otherwise? Scapegoats are very important. Some practitioners see them as the most important role in the family- because without a scapegoat the rest of the family can't deal with their stuff and has nowhere to dump it.

Anyhow, if that resonates with you, here's a longish, but excellent video about being a scapegoat. This guy is great, not only does he explain things well, he's also a survivor of a very dysfunctional system, and he tends to give practical advice/exercises to work on those issues.

The Family Scapegoat - Childhood Trauma - YouTube

@seesaw

"Rd, can you create some space with your father? It really sounds like you just need to stay away from him for a while so you won't be exposed to his comments, etc."

Yes, healthier to stay away.

Then I'm cast as keeping the grandkids from him.

And all of this results in more isolation.

I'll look up the scapegoat stuff. Thank you @ArmorPlate108

RDMercer

Thanks for this! This is me, The Scapegoat....

"A person gets to an age where they don’t want to go back over their past. It is often too stressful for mind and body and can also bring up emotions that can damage whatever relationship they have now"

So....

Dad will go into extreme detail about all he endured while mom was drinking; on the phone, in person, and on email. Unprompted.

Simply saying, "I was there too. Do you want to hear it from my perspective? Have you ever once, ever, asked what it was like for anyone else?"

Gets a response of, "Why do you have to keep dragging up the past? Why can't you let anything go?", and a follow-up call from mom saying, "RD darling why can't you just move on and let bygones be bygones? Why can't we have peace?"

..... ????...... All about a past I never brought up or asked to revisit.

Holy geez.

True story. Happened last month.

This reminds me of when my narcissistic ex client/friend was bad mouthing and gossiping about this woman we had hired bc she was just totally failing and didn't have the skills to do the job.

I mentioned a few things, including that dumping this all (her work) on me while my dog was dying (yes, I was taking him to be put to sleep that week) was upsetting me. I was agreeing with my ex client that the woman's incompetence was annoying and angering.

And my client did a 180 and started calling me unprofessional for talking about the woman and said I was damaging our professional relationship.

You kind of get whiplash from how fast they do a 180 when you're literally just talking about what they were talking about.

It's like turning the corner and seeing a rattlesnake.

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Classic narcissist behavior... As soon as it's not all about him, and him alone, he's done. SMH.

This is showing you that he can’t validate how your mother’s drinking and how that created conflict in their relationship affected you (his children). Instead he is looking for validations and comfort. And your mother just wants it to go away because she can’t see her way to seeing things from anyone’s point of view but her own. Your father is looking for a big that a boy because he paid the bills and kept the marriage together despite how hard it was for him.

Unfortunately, this happens a lot in relationships where there is alcohol or drug abuse in the mix. Alcohol abuse is a very narcissistic disorder and hurts all involved with the person. And the person engages in covert acts of denial and play the victim.