Changing my responses

Hi,

I was in a long term marriage to someone that I now know was a covert narcissist.

This isn't a pop-psych buzz word thing. After we separated, my long term therapist said, "I couldn't diagnose her as she's not my client, but you have been for six years. It's time we begin treating you for long term narcissistic and borderline abuse."

So. That leaves its mark.

Also, looking back, I can say that I have been invalidated and provoked in my birth family in significant ways over the years. Once I get overwhelmed, word is out; "RD is impossible, he's just so angry, you never know what is going to set him off, etc."

I still have to interact with my birth family. I'm tired of being provoked until I act out of character. The thing is, once I do that, and THAT is invalidated, I tend to double down and say it harder.

You can only say, "I'M NOT CRAZY AND I'M NOT ANGRY" a couple of times before you look totally, totally crazy and angry.

I have to work on not being provoked, and not reacting when I'm not validated on something.

There is something going on right now.... My father said something about me that is totally out of line..... Like.... Where you go, "Seriously? WTH?"

But such a thing could affect me in ongoing court issues for custody of my kids.

So... I react out of fear and anger. Tell him he nuts, he's gone too far, etc., and he goes, "See? This is the kind of abuse we get from you."

I'm open to anyone who wants to offer some suggestions or insight.

Thanks,

RDMercer

Oh, you sound so much like my experiences. I was never angry around others growing up but wow, my parents would sure trigger my anger (out of frustration with them I think). I was already on overload from my parents then ended up in a marriage that did the same thing & I had no anger even with frustration outside of those relationships. I never got actual invalidation but I never got any validation.....but I did what I knew I wanted with my life no matter what & ended up with my degree & my career I worked hsrd for without any outside encouragement.

By the point I started healing with good therapy, my parents were no longer alive so I never had a chance to see if my healing & new skills would have worked with them. I had left my marriage & basically had no contact with my husband except through lawyers for 11 years before I saw him again. I was so worried that he would trigger all my anger again when I saw him at the ranch I was staying at for a little vacation & a court hearing against him. He was doing night horse feeding at the ranch & I couldn't avoid running into him. Oh the anxiety of wondering. Turned out I had learned how to control my responses & redirect conversations. I also think because I wasn't already being on overload it might have helped me keep my cool. My opinion of him had & has never changed but how I responded truly had.

It has been interesting listening to Dr Ramani. All those relationships had a narcissistic overtone to them but one time she said that when dealing with people on the spectrum there are similarities but cause & intent are different. When spectrum issues aren't diagnosed it is not that easy to know if there is a different cause or intent because to the receiver it feels the same.

Yes, changing responses & also limiting interaction as much as possible to keep from experiencing the overload that causes the response that ends up being preceived as anger. IT IS NOT EASY

Did I read between the lines correctly Eskie?

Did you tell me to get a dog?

RDMercer

I won't make you read between the lines. Go get a dog.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RDMercer Did I read between the lines correctly Eskie? Did you tell me to get a dog? RDMercer

Lol....only if you want one....ugh, my Aussie Shepherd puppy though totally loving requires so much of my attention just to keep him from destroying my house. More of a handful than kids

Sounds like they are gaslighting you hence, making you the problem (or the 'crazy' one) when they are the trigger.

Agreed on the learning not to react part but that is easier said than done. If possible also, disengage with these people as much as possible. And still work with your therapist on emotional regulation and strengthening your inner self. Then you will be able to bat these gnats away from a grounded place!

It's just that all I want is peace and strong family connections.

My parents are old. I just wish I could enjoy them.

My dad just... concocts... these things that suddenly need attention or that I have to fix about myself or the kids.

I can be completely relaxed and, "We need to talk..."

Last summer, six months after my wife and I split, it was, "We need to talk. Your children need a mother.
There's been enough of this moping around. You should have already been looking for someone ."

If I say something like, "That's.... insane. Middle aged women with no histories or responsibilities who will move into my home and accept me and my children don't exist. And I'm still grieving. We're still unpacking the degree of abuse to the kids."

So.... That makes me difficult and impossible to speak to. I'm always angry. Hair trigger, ready to go off.

He's continued with that stuff, calling my competency as a parent into question.

Boom. Now we're done. I'm fighting for my kids in court, and you aren't safe to be around.

My father recently told me how terribly angry his older brother would get at him. I said, "Yeah, you've always said that. But he never came here. Those times always happened when you went to his house, and the fights were around his business, his kids, and his marriage."

Again.... Proof that I'm just difficult.

I wish I could suppress my reactions to him and this insane crap.

That’s just what they told Cinderella’s father right before he married her wicked step mother! Your father thinks he is still in 1950.

Everyone here gave good advice and sees the patterns of narcissistic abuse.

Luckily, courts know what year this is. I hope you prevail and your kids get the outcome that is best for them.

Your father has no business telling you what to do. He is disrespecting your boundaries and treating you like a child. It’s understandable you get triggered.

Have you.asked for his advice? Is it your father who has a history of abusing alcohol?

Your father should not be telling you to quickly find a woman to swoop in and parent your children. That doesn’t fly in this generation and is not something people have done in a few generations now.

No Dad didn't drink. My mom did.

No, I didn't ask his advice.

Things could be fine for weeks or months and SUCKER PUNCH!

Then when I react, he's the victim... But he was only acting out of love, or in some cases concern for someone's soul.

Oh yes, I've come to realize.... I grew up around a covert narcissist and then married one that was far worse.

RD, I think they know exactly what will set you off, and they do so intentionally.

Your post about "changing your responses" really hits home for me because I'm dealing with this with people in my community of dog sports, and particularly this one woman who has been doing things to intentionally bait me and get a reaction and make me look angry/crazy/immature, whatever, when really it's HER behavior that is immature, childish, and unsportsmanlike. Her toxic goal is to get a response out of me that proves her point. I think your family does the same.

I don't think our goal should be to change our responses, but rather, it should be to recognize when someone is baiting us and just walk away so they can't get the satisfaction. Our goal should be to spot toxic people and avoid them like the plague, so that no reaction/response even comes into the equation.

I spoke with both OE and Eskie over the weekend about this person and their behavior. This person did get a response out of me a little bit with their baiting and childishness, but it didn't really get them what they wanted. I wish I hadn't even responded with what little I had. Or, I can think back now at least to a better way to have responded that would have been less responsive and not given her what she wanted. Unfortunately, I really didn't know that she would stoop to the level that she did, but I should have guessed it.

So, apologies, not intending to hijack your thread, just telling this story to show I relate, and to also share my own realization, which is that it's not about not responding. It's about having the boundaries to avoid them in the first place.

And what I also realize is that this is the entitled type of person (I'm not going to arm chair diagnosis this woman, but I can definitely say without a shadow of doubt that she's very entitled, toxic, and self centered) doesn't think twice about what they did to you. Your family isn't sitting around thinking up new ways to torture you or bait you. They go about their day thinking about themselves, and when you are around, it gives them pleasure to bait you to prove who you are (or who they say you are), and when you're gone, they just sit in their self satisfaction thinking about themselves.

When your dad says things that are just like WTF, when you find yourself questioning why any human being would say that to you, that's your sign to end the conversation. And that's not a negotiation. It sounds to me like your father isn't a "safe" person for this kind of discussion anyhow.

I could have avoided exploding at this woman when she called me over and baited me into conversation a month ago, but she's going around lying about what happened and saying that I got into it with her, and I certainly could have avoided that by simply refusing to get into that conversation at all with her when she started talking to me. But I wasn't on my guard and I didn't realize her level of toxicity, and I got baited into it. It's not my fault, and I can forgive myself, but it's given her ammo to continue trying to bait me.

On the other hand, I'm also friends with a woman in the community, she's funny because personally we are very different people, she's conservative politically and I avoid talking about anything sociopolitical or anything, we just talk about dogs, but one thing I've learned from her is to have a don't give a **** attitude when it comes to advocating for yourself and the people you love. I'm learning a bit from her to have a healthy amount of self-centeredness (not sure that's really the right term). I think so often we are people pleasing, we forget there are many people who do not deserve our consideration.

Good post! I can relate to this! People setting me off intentionally (it's not hard to spot )

I agree, there are many people who don't deserve our consideration, as they have been repeatedly disrespectful to us.

Something else came up today that made me reflect on why I usually always tend to respond in the first place. I notice when someone says something I disagree with I don't want to just walk away because I don't want them to think I agree with them. All my life I saw silence as consent to what they were saying or going along with what they said & I never wanted someone I disagreed with to think I agreed with them.

Lol....now I have my say & end the conversation with my rebuttal. For me it is very hard not to respond to things people say that I disagree with but with some people not responding at all is the best solution or taking control of the conversation & changing it in a different direction. The problem with having a different opinion that sometimes it ends up in an argument or twisting what you say & as you know from your experience.....not a good result either.

I have also realized that many times I have wanted to have the last say & that just drags the crap on rather than ending it. I became more aware of this lately & I can see it in others who are that way too & am getting more practiced in conversations

I'm going to quit ruminating so much.

And less time on here during work.

This is hard. This time I've said things that can't be undone.

I told my dad in front of my brother, that dad has covert narcissistic traits.

I said, I'm poked, and poked, and poked, until I respond. You've both treated me like I'm too angry my whole life, but this is what's always happened.

I said I'd begged dad to stop picking stuff with my wife while we were together but he wouldn't, and that all created pain, hardship and drama in my home for years, but he "had to say these things to witness for the Lord".

I've since given them both dozens of examples of similar things. Which, of course makes me look crazy and angry.

My brother knew about the stuff with my wife, but dad had already planted it that she'd started all those instances.

I really believe I've over reacted in my response this time, but my therapist said, "Of course. You have PTSD. Look at the effects of a firecracker on a veteran."

So... Ultimately I'm isolated, and I don't think there's any coming back from this one.

Yes, I have been trying to stop myself from having the last word too. The last word with a manipulative person isn't worth it. And they drive it on so long, I feel disgusted with myself after. Better to just stop responding and preserve one's peace and integrity.

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So true. Can be so hard to keep to this. They drag it on and on.... to the depths of insanity even sometimes. We Need and Deserve to preserve our peace and integrity against their relentless picking at invisible faults (in us) and their stupid mind games.

Now that you have gotten educated about narcissistic behavior patterns, you will see patterns that others in your past exhibited too. This is part of how we can miss red flags and consider it as normal/familiar behaviors. Your father is probably unaware of his unhealthy behavior patterns. Unfortunately these patterns get handed down from one generation to the next.

Seesaw i was gonna say a lot of what you wrote but i was too lazy. i know, i am an idiot