[rukspc]

Please bear with me. I am dealing with some things and need someone to tell.


I think I come from an enmeshed family.... I have read about the signs. I also have a disorganized, avoidant, fearful attachment style, and emotional dysregulation in times of crisis. I have trouble communicating my needs because I don't even know what I need. I am a very poor decision-maker and I lack a lot of courage.

I am on the fence about whether I should split from my husband. We are giving counseling a shot soon to see if we can figure it out. We've just had so many problems from when we first moved out together until now: me dragging my feet in decision-making, my family influencing my decisions, boundaries with my family, expectations of each other - all even before we got married (even the very night before our wedding - he wanted to kill himself because he was so stressed from my negative emotional dumps during wedding planning). Before that, I had a feeling about breaking up, but I stayed because I saw how good he was to me.

Still 1.5 years into our marriage, we are having the same arguments, same fights, same stressors. One of our biggest fights was two weeks ago. He called me really horrible things (out of extreme anger). Each fight, he threatens divorce, calls his parents. I get scared or sometimes I freeze. Other times, I scream and shout, too.

Last summer, he got into an argument with my sister about her disrespecting him. She denied that it was offensive and laughed it off. During the trip, which was incredibly chaotic because of my mother's outbursts as well, left everyone on edge. My husband and I would argue in private, and he'd beg me to have some time to ourselves. I said no, we already agreed to hang with my sister and their group. He and I just pushed and pulled constantly until he gave in.

Prior to that life-changing argument with my sister, my husband had wanted to jump off the balcony just days before because he was so stressed from the demands of my mother, and rudeness of my sister, adding so much stress. I reassured him that everything would be okay. He was in distress and I abandoned him. I felt paralyzed because I loved him but couldn't find the courage to step up and show up.

Fast forward from that trip to now. My sister and I haven't talked for about 9 months. We text about me picking up the nieces and nephews. We text about uncoupling financial things. My mom has pressured me to apologize to her. My husband to apologize to her. My stepdad has encouraged me to have a talk with her. My mom's emotional state has also affected his mental health because he can't calm my mom down, she's "lost her daughters" and now I feel soooo guilty that I feel like they are headed for divorce. It would be my fault that they split. Now, my stepdad is visiting his own mother out of town for awhile, away from my mom.

Vfydyuhkguf6fivovov I am losing my mind every day. I feel numb and can barely see. I cry every night. I have developed bags under my eyes. I can't see myself anymore. At work, I can function as a teacher. But deep down, I feel miserable and cry during my prep times.

Future family events are ruined. We didn't even spend Christmas with my mom. Now graduation season is upon us and I have to decide if I can go to my niece's graduation ceremony and make the drive by myself (I am blind in one eye and can't drive long distances).

I'm not sure where to turn.
I am not sure which direction to go.
If I'd let my then-boyfriend go 4-5 years ago, maybe things wouldn't be this bad. He wouldn't have to carry all this with me. And he'd be better mentally. Maybe I'd be somewhat better mentally. I let him down so many times. I broke him. Feels like we are broken beyond repair. I know he loves me but sometimes it's hard for me to trust.

I feel regret for hurting so many people. I feel stupid for wasting so much time and not listening to myself. I'm also just ... stupid for not standing up when I had the chance to.

[Tart Cherry Jam]

You mention that your husband has twice been on the brink of a suicide attempt. Does he have a treating psychiatrist? Is he in individual therapy?

Giving couples counseling a try is a fine plan, but it does not substitute for a treatment team that your H needs on his side.

Plus, if he is in treatment, you will feel less peronally responsible for his deteriorating mental state - there would be mental health professionals to lean on.

[Have Hope]

So, from what I gather your enmeshment with your toxic family is ruining your husband's mental health and your own? And your husband has been brought to the brink of wanting to kill himself because of your family and your involvement with them?

Sounds like there needs to be stronger boundaries and less involvement with your family for the sake of your health, your husband's health, and the health of your marriage.

A therapist can help you with this situation, I do believe, but both you and your husband have to want to save the marriage and be willing to talk through the issues in therapy.

You yourself have to be able to enforce boundaries and stand up to your family members in the face of disrespect. Your husband is clearly having meltdowns because of how your family interacts and because of your involvement with them.

Based off your one post, if you love your husband and want the marriage to stay in tact, you will have to make some changes. That's the way I see it. I hope therapy helps.

[ArmorPlate108]

The good news is that you have become aware of the problems. You can only fix what you can acknowledge, so you can work on this.

Your family does sound enmeshed. No one makes a move without the others' permission (even if it's not directly expressed), and everyone is responsible for the way everyone else feels. No one has boundaries, and no one is living autonomously. The drama is exhausting (I know, the dynamic is familiar to me).

Only you can decide if things are too far gone for your marriage. Maybe both of you would benefit from individual counseling, or other self-work, to address your issues as individuals?

If you've grown up in an enmeshed family and/or with poor boundaries, it can be hard to see what's really going on. The line of dilineation between you and others has become so blurred that you don't actually have a bearing on where you end and they begin. But again, the good news is that you can learn. The bad news is that it can take some time, be a lot of work, and probably upset those who benefit most from the enmeshed dynamic.

[rukspc]

I am at fault because I never said anything about my mental health and did not establish strong and firm boundaries before I met my husband. I brought on all this baggage and my family is clueless. They think my husband just did this in isolation. But because I never managed anything, I have myself to blame, and the price is so high.

I'm truly sorry to everyone, especially my husband.
He has stood by me and even knowing all these fudged up things about me, he still married me.

My mother and sister are more powerful, more assertive and aggressive. I am meek, weak-willed and not daring to handle things before they get out of hand.

How can I repair all of this? What can I do to get us out of here? This hell that I created.

[Tart Cherry Jam]

If this enmeshment is really difficult to handle and the FOO overpowers you routinely, one option is a temporary "no contact" with the FOO in order to salvage the marriage which you truly value.

[rukspc]

What about attending family events? How do I handle and deal with it? My cousin's daughter, whom I call my niece,is graduating from HS next week... I'm in a bind.

We proposed 3 options:
- I go alone, stay with mom and potentially see my sister
- We both go, my husband thinks there will be a disastrous outcome like more drama or fighting
- We don't go at all, and my extended family gets really suspicious and blames me. Making me look bad. I get interrogated by everyone, my mom and sister talk smack about my husband. I'll probably have to reveal the real issue and conflict to my extended family.

My sister told him, my husband, that's he not family. So I just don't know.

[Bill3]

It will not be your fault if your mom and stepdad get a divorce.

How can I repair all of this? What can I do to get us out of here? This hell that I created.

You are the way you are because of the toxic manner in which you were brought up. That is not your fault.

Individual counseling for you, and for your husband, is essential. You both absolutely need this. Do you have experience in individual counseling?

Regarding next week: don't bring your husband.

How close are you with your niece? If you are not close, don't go. Disregard what extended family says, don't tell them anything. Start to free yourself from family demands.

If you are close to your niece: What if you stay with your mother, as you mentioned? What will happen?

Don't apologize to your sister because people pressure you to do that.

Couples counseling with your husband is a good idea.

Hang in there!

[Tart Cherry Jam]

I would not go yo the graduation, would message the niece (I also call even my second cousin's daughter my niece and it seems totally natural to me, BTW) and apologize for not being able to attend the graduation and offer her to make up for that by inviting her to dinner, just she and you, to celebrate the occasion. If your finances allow it, you can also offer to take her shopping for a graduation present. The problem is not the niece, the problem is primarily mother and sister, so you want to avoid them and not her. There is no harm involved in spending quality one-on-one time with the niece. As for her, she would benefit much more from such quality time during which you can really focus on her as a unique and special being than she would if you simply formally attended her graduation.

When I suggested no contact with FOO, I meant all the problematic ppl such as mother and sister. I did not mean to break ties with the presumably innocent niece.

[ArmorPlate108]

Heres a secret- no matter what you choose to do, it will be the wrong thing.

That's how enmeshed families work - there's constant drama energy among the players. That's where boundaries come in. You don't let the drama cross your border, and likewise don't send any in the other direction.

As far as the graduation, sit quietly with yourself and figure out what YOU want to do. Talk to your H, get on the same page as him, whether you both go, you go alone, or you don't go at all. Take into consideration what would cause the least upset to your neice- the day is about her, but the family drama has the potential to get in the way.

So you know, boundaries aren't about what anybody else is doing or how they're treating you. It's about not letting the garbage into your personal space, and not engaging in the enmeshed drama. If you do go to the graduation, prepare and practice 'greyrocking' lines. These are bland responses that don't feed drama. It may sound silly to prepare that way, but when you've been in the drama so long, it feels natural and automatic to engage in it, so changing your responses is difficult.

For the record, H's family is the enmeshment that I deal with. MIL is the primary instigator, the center of the circle. A few years ago, meek FIL was marvelling at how I "handle" MIL. It's not handling, it's just healthy boundaries, but those aren't allowed in an enmeshed family, so healthy boundaries seem alien. And that's one of the biggest obstacles in healing and changing- just not knowing where the "normal/healthy" line is.

Both you and your h could potentially benefit from learning more about boundaries. What normal ones look like and how to get them.

[rukspc]

Originally Posted by Bill3

It will not be your fault if your mom and stepdad get a divorce.


You are the way you are because of the toxic manner in which you were brought up. That is not your fault.

Individual counseling for you, and for your husband, is essential. You both absolutely need this. Do you have experience in individual counseling?

Yes, I do. But I never made a true breakthrough because my last therapist ghosted me.

Regarding next week: don't bring your husband.

How close are you with your niece? If you are not close, don't go. Disregard what extended family says, don't tell them anything. Start to free yourself from family demands.

If you are close to your niece: What if you stay with your mother, as you mentioned? What will happen?

My sister will likely be there and my mother will have all three of us "talk" it out.

[rukspc]

Originally Posted by Tart Cherry Jam

I would not go yo the graduation, would message the niece (I also call even my second cousin's daughter my niece and it seems totally natural to me, BTW) and apologize for not being able to attend the graduation and offer her to make up for that by inviting her to dinner, just she and you, to celebrate the occasion. If your finances allow it, you can also offer to take her shopping for a graduation present. The problem is not the niece, the problem is primarily mother and sister, so you want to avoid them and not her. There is no harm involved in spending quality one-on-one time with the niece. As for her, she would benefit much more from such quality time during which you can really focus on her as a unique and special being than she would if you simply formally attended her graduation.

When I suggested no contact with FOO, I meant all the problematic ppl such as mother and sister. I did not mean to break ties with the presumably innocent niece.

Right. Yes, my niece is not at fault at all. H & I recognize that for sure.

For my niece's graduation, I should've prefaced with I'd have to drive 3 hours away. Here's the other thing... I am blind in one of my eyes, so H said he would drive me but then not stay.
I'm still deciding whether to attend the ceremony by myself, and stay with mother for a while, or just not go at all. My gut is telling me to make the drive to see my niece (even without H). H worries about me and doesn't want me to make the far drive alone.

[rukspc]

I (34f) should have said this in my OP.

H (36m) has really good, strong, and very healthy boundaries with his family. The family dynamic is much healthier on his side because he and his 3 siblings established healthy boundaries from a young age in their 20s. I don't compare whether I necessarily "enjoy" going to his side more, but I can say that it is easier to be myself and feel like I'm part of the family with his sisters, and rest of the family.

There are some moments that can be toxic and unhealthy for sure, but overall, as a whole, his immediate family does not have a bearing on ...
- his decision-making
- his sense of self
- his personal choices
- where he wants to live
- where he wants to work
- what he does in his free time

His family doesn't keep score either on how many times he goes to my side or how many times we don't go to his side.

He is independent and has autonomy in his life.

And through all of his family drama, he keeps me OUT of it. And that's what he has been trying to show me for the last 5-6 years. I realize now a lot of things I should have done in hindsight that he was trying to show me. [So many things I need to unpack in therapy...]

[rukspc]

Originally Posted by ArmorPlate108

Heres a secret- no matter what you choose to do, it will be the wrong thing.

I'll be honest ... I re-read this many times ... in an enmeshed family, no matter what ... it will be the wrong thing.

That's how enmeshed families work - there's constant drama energy among the players. That's where boundaries come in. You don't let the drama cross your border, and likewise don't send any in the other direction.

As far as the graduation, sit quietly with yourself and figure out what YOU want to do. Talk to your H, get on the same page as him, whether you both go, you go alone, or you don't go at all. Take into consideration what would cause the least upset to your neice- the day is about her, but the family drama has the potential to get in the way.

Yes because, ultimately it's not about me. She and I aren't as close as we once were, but I have been in various parts of her life as she grew. I think the right thing to do would be to join and congratulate her.

For the record, H's family is the enmeshment that I deal with. MIL is the primary instigator, the center of the circle. A few years ago, meek FIL was marvelling at how I "handle" MIL. It's not handling, it's just healthy boundaries, but those aren't allowed in an enmeshed family, so healthy boundaries seem alien. And that's one of the biggest obstacles in healing and changing- just not knowing where the "normal/healthy" line is.

Have you had healthy boundaries since the beginning of your marriage? How did your H establish them. For me, I get so anxious and nervous to address what I need that I just shut down or just stick to fawning [people-pleasing]. Same patterns ....

Both you and your h could potentially benefit from learning more about boundaries. What normal ones look like and how to get them.

[Tart Cherry Jam]

It is so good that your H has a well-functioning extended family. You can use it as a model. You prepared such a good list of things that make him an autonomous adult.

[Bill3]

My sister will likely be there and my mother will have all three of us "talk" it out.

What do you think of this scenario?

Would it be possible to stay in a hotel?

I'm really sorry that your last therapist ghosted you.

My gut is telling me to make the drive to see my niece (even without H). H worries about me and doesn't want me to make the far drive alone.

H is a peach to offer to drive you and not go to the wedding.

The danger of listening to your gut is that it might be telling you what it is habituated by your toxic upbringing to tell you. My suggestion, then, is to always reflect carefully, perhaps with your husband, on what your gut tells you, before deciding to follow it or not follow it.

[ArmorPlate108]

Bill3 makes a good point that your gut feeling may be too strongly influenced by your FOO (family of origin) at this point. Do reflect carefully and don't rush into anything.

The scenario where your mother will direct the three of you to "talk it out" seems very heavy handed and controlling. As an adult, no one should be managing you to that degree. You have say about whether you want to do that or not. But that's also pretty typical in enmeshed families. Those are some of the hardest boundaries to learn to implement IMO. Our relationships with parents sometimes don't transition well from kids who need guidance, to adults who are autonomous and get to make their own decisions.

I don't want to get into my situation too much- for the sake of your needs from this thread- it's complicated and unusual. H has developed physical, mental, and rare neurological issues in middle age that seem to have changed his personality. No one seems to know where one medical issue begins or ends, so it's just messy. The enmeshment may be one of his lesser issues at this point.

Looking back, there was always an enmeshment, a vague feeling that his family came first, but when he began to struggle with his health issues, it was like he emotionally abandoned DD and myself, and went all-in with his FOO once again. His FOO seems to have capitalized on this.

I don't think he has it in him (possibly not even the capacity/ability at this point) to separate from his family. It might be too scary and painful for him. If he was capable of implementing boundaries with them, it could essentially mean being cast out of the family. They very much have a "you're either with us, or you're against us" mentality, which doesn't allow for much independent thought or action. It's an echo chamber, go along to get along. If you don't, then you're considered an outsider. He had less of a problem with this in the past, but the anxiety or whatever from his current problems make him insecure and needy enough to cling to them at all costs.

I hope you find your way, and learn about some new ways of living that are freeing and empowering. Your H sounds like a really good guy, but I can also understand the powerful nature of an enmeshed family. Lots of hugs and prayers for you.

[divine1966]

I am sorry for your struggles. I recall your thread from last year. My advice to you stands. Sorry got it retyping it. Here is the link.

Blaming Myself for a Family Fallout.