My ex came to the house

Sorry. I wrote something then decided not to.

The way codependency was explained to me:

You acquire it from living with an addict/disordered person. It's the dysfunction you develop through the years of navigating an unreal and crazy-making situation. Even if the addict/disordered person goes away, you're probably still codependent.

I hope you get some useful information and/or validation from the book.

Hi

Just letting you all know I’m doing much better.

This may have been a mistake on her part. This last interaction really showed me who she is now. It also took the shock out of my interactions with her significantly. I’ll be less reactive and thinking more the next time.

My friend the lawyer gave me 15 minutes of coaching and reaffirmed a bunch of mistakes she made by coming here. I’m stronger now than I was a week ago.

Thank you all

RDM

I always call these situations "LEARNING OPPORTUNITIES"......that we grow & learn from.

Go figure just this week & 6 years after my divorce & 17 years after I left him, my ex gave me a couple of situations that helped me know myself even better & navigating how to handle it.

It ok....think we never stop learning how to deal with the things life throws at us

Good to hear Mercer

It was very selfish of your wife to just show up unannounced like that. Very disrespectful and narcissistic.

@unaluna

LOL! 😆

I think you're trying too hard to influence DD's relationship with her mother. It might be healthier for you to back away a bit. The coaching session you offered her sounds counter-productive to me. It just amped up the level of drama. Your daughter is seeing a counselor. Let the counselor do the counseling.

Naturally a father is also a counselor to a daughter, but this is an issue you should handle with a very light touch. Your ex is trying to buy your daughter's allegiance. DD may be tempted to take the bait. That's up to her to figure out for herself. Your ex is also out to make you look bad in your daughter's eyes. That's not going to change. You don't need to get defensive. Your daughter lives with you and knows who you are.

DD and her mother have to work out their relationship in their own way. Don't be in the middle of that. Your daughter has been exposed to excess drama related to this divorce. Kids can get addicted to drama and find ways to keep it going. Try not to feed in. DD and her brother will also work out what's between them in their own way. Your daughter will have some inner conflict about how to relate to her mother. Having inner conflict is part of life. It doesn't mean that all is chaos. Resist the temptation to do your daughter's thinking for her. She'll have ups and downs with her mother. Just give her a stable base in a stable home, and she'll figure out what's what.

Your ex bringing a guy with her was not very classy. So . . . she continues to show who she is.

Excellent advice!

I think you and your son are way too invested in wanting DD to see your ex right now as you see her. You both need to back off. DD will develop some illusions that her mom could be what she'ld like her to be. Her mom will eventually shatter those illusions. DD will know some disappointment and get a reality check. That's life. You would prefer that your daughter not go through anything like that, but it's not within your control. Pain is part of how we mature. If your daughter has a safe, supportive home with you then that will be the bigger influence on her. Her mother's manipulations will wear thin.

@Rose76 DD went to the son & he had every right to tell her his boundaries & set them firm. That in no way is telling her what to do it is nothing more than him telling her what he needs to do for his well being & something he has every right to do. I see no intent there to make DD see mom the way he does. It is her choice all along & ALL choices have consequences & he i8s just letting her know what one of those consequences will be. She has a right to know known consequences. If she makes the choice to connect with her mom then she may learn there are more consequences than just the one with her brother. That is real life.

For a young man of this son's age to be telling his kid sister that he'll have nothing to do with her, if she is in contact with her mother, is ridiculous. He can do whatever he wants to safeguard his boundaries. Making that big announcement to his sister was uncalled for. So now he can't even be in his father's house because that would put him in contact with someone who is seeing the mother he wants to avoid. He's trying to guilt her.

Where does he plan to go, since he "won't be home."? I don't believe he's going anywhere. He's trying to make it sound like his sister will be ruining his life. He's free to leave the house, when his mother is there. He's free to have nothing to do with his mother. But he says he can't have anything to do with DD, unless she will refuse to have nothing to do with her mother. That's the way high school girls in mean cliques operate. That's being manipulative. I think he's way out of line to pressure his sister in that way. He is trying to set his sister's boundaries, which is wrong.

Some consequences are inevitable, some are not. If the consequence of DD talking to her mother is that big brother will choose to cut her out of his life, then big brother needs to get over himself.

I agree with Rose on many points.

I don’t think mother needs to be in their house showing up unannounced. She doesn’t live there.

But if visitations are properly established, DD has rights to see her mother.

I don’t think it’s up to her brother when and if DD sees her mom. Kids typically have rights to maintain contacts and see their parents (in the absence of abuse and court orders prohibiting parents from seeing their children).

Even if for whatever crazy reason it was decided to let mom visit DD in the house, it’s not up to him. If he doesn’t like it, he could go somewhere for the timing being so he won’t see mom but he can’t make these decisions.

I think it’s a but ridiculous for him to say that he won’t have any contacts with anyone who talks to his mother. Like why?

So he’s threatening a child (I assume she’s not of legal age) to cut her off if she’s as much as talks to her mother? That’s highly inappropriate. It puts a kid in a bad situation. He needs to be told to knock it off.

She has rights to see her mother (if courts agree). Making her choose is not right on many levels. She’s not even an adult.

Her brother has the right to make his choice how he is going to handle the situation for himself. Much better for him to tell her what he is doing than say nothing & leave her wondering. He chose a reasonable way to handle his boundaries. It would be dysfunctional for him not to acknowledge his needs & set his boundaries.

She is old enough to make choices & understand the family dynamics going on

There are health things she will want to discuss with a woman, hopefully not just her girlfriends.

You ok @RDMercer?

@unaluna She’s got a couple of women she’s comfortable turning to.

And to be honest, I’ll tackle almost anything. She’s asked me some pretty direct questions about her periods. If I can’t find an answer, she has a couple of women she turns to, but also I’ve removed any stigma of going to the sexual health nurse at her school. There’s also a teen sexual health clinic in the city near my work and I’ve taken her for women’s health support and questions probably 5 or 6 times.

@Open Eyes. I think so.

My parents are here. I’m doing well coming to terms with their positives and negatives and I’m thankful it happened while I still had them.

Dad’s a damaged person. I’ve come to realize he’s got strong traits of communal narcissism; heavily entrenched in his religion, volunteers everywhere, makes a martyr of himself, complains others don’t do as much and sometimes complains he doesn’t have enough (because he’s given so much away). But he’s not a bad person. Both my parents grew up with trauma and they carry that.

I think mom drank at times because she was emotionally lonely. Dad ADORES her, but I think she could feel something was off. Dad always provided for us and was good to us, but he was emotionally distant.

Dad shows love by doing. So…. “Come on up and show me how to measure and install my windows, and fix the frame on my couch.” So they’re here.

Mom has early dementia but she’s simply wonderful and funny and adorable. We’re watching old Hulk Hogan matches and she’s hooting and hollering with me.

After I saw my wife, I felt desperately low for four days, then a LOT better….. Like….. Really relaxed and peaceful

Since then it’s been up and down but more up than down.

Also…Back to Dad….. Communal narcissists want to feel important and often draw attention by giving. I used to stress about that because I saw Dad giving SO much away.

Now I say, “Hey Dad. I wish we could all go to Montana’s but it’s expensive.” Then he offers to buy. He always gives me his Visa to pay. I’ve resolved that 1 in every 3 times I use his card. The other times I take his card, and then I pay.

The kids are here with BFs and GFs.

Not so bad.

I’m curious, do you see some of your own values in your father? Do you think you might be too generous?

@Rose76
@divine1966

There were several posts here I’d missed.

The oldest has options of where he’s going to live; whether it’s with friends, GF, or whatever.

His mother was far more abusive towards him than his sister and that is coming out in family counselling. He made a police report to take out a restraining order to keep her from coming home when we first separated and he will be making statements in court against his mom.

Does he feel unsafe around her and does her presence affect him? Yes. Does his sister get to have a relationship with her mom if she wishes? Yes. Does he get to protect himself? Yes. Has my daughter’s therapist also advised she not be in contact with her mom? Yes. Does my daughter still have the right to see her mom? Yes.

There’s nothing he needs to “knock off”. Right now his mom is pursuing a relationship with ONE of her kids. Just one. This is what triangulation in emotional abuse looks like. He’s not the one who caused it. He’s being victimized and people protect his abuser instead of him. I’d run from that too if I was his age. My son is 20 now. Kids leave home younger than that to run from emotional and mental abuse.

Do I worry I’m too generous? No. I don’t give away significant amounts of time or money and I’m with my kids a lot.

Your son sounds like he struggles with the psychological abuse he suffered from his mother. Even though he is big and strong now on the outside, he has a very troubled child part in him that still suffers. He has a right to completely distance from his mother and it’s understandable he wants you and his sister to be safe from potential abuse.

When the oldest was 16 he began asking me to sleep in a different room. Because of the floor plan in our house he could hear stuff from our room and no one else could. He heard his mom’s anger at me night after night. He came into our room and asked her to stop many times and saw me in my usual spot, sitting on the floor away from the door. I’m a strong guy. My wife had accused me of trying to physically intimidate her and block the door to prevent her from leaving the room. . When she’d begin berating me I’d move away from the door and take a physical position lower than her.

I’ve requested mediation and a divorce settlement multiple times and she’s refused. She’s adamant she’s going to financially destroy me and take everything. She’s also said repeatedly she’s going to “ruin” me. My son heard those threats from her over the years during late night fights. He confronted her with all this about five months before we separated. She denied it ALL and has continued to say she was blindsided by the separation and there had never been talk of separation in our marriage.

So, I’ll be testifying that I was abused. He’s the only person who can corroborate that.

There’s also abuse he’s talked about in family counselling that I didn’t know about, but there’s corroborating evidence for everything he’s saying. I believe him.

While she was loudly threatening divorce in our final months my son said repeatedly, “What about me and my plans for college? You can’t take this from me.” Every time he said that she replied “Once you’re 18 you’re not my problem. Figure it out.”

So…. He needs to feel safe and wanted someplace. He thought he was going insane for a while because the gaslighting was so bad.

He told my daughter he can’t question himself or feel uncertain before going to court. He’s also scared his mom will find out about where he’s staying when he’s not home, where he’s working, etc. Therefore if she wants a relationship with her mom, he’s staying away.

His mom fawning over daughter periodically while denying things daughter said occurred is just triangulation abuse and more gaslighting. . He’s not caused any of this, and it’s not him who’s bullying and coercing daughter.

The periodic fawning also has a term; breadcrumbing. Her mom is giving her samples of the love she needs…. But not actually. It’s not real, and it’s not true parental love.

But if I tell her that, and she tells her mom I said that, mom can cry parental alienation in court.


RDMercer

What I admire most about your son is that he knows himself, acknowledges the hurt his mom caused & is wise enough to take action that is in the best interest of his own self care without doubting it or needing outside validation to do what he knows he needs to do. You have a son to be very proud of

*tears*

You and your kids have endured so much.

Covert abuse is so very, very awful. The abuser is so good at playing the victim, that the true victims can end up being doubted, and ultimately doubly victimized.

You're doing a great job of weighing your options, and making good decisions about how to deal with the situations that come up. But, wow, it's tough.