[gordian_knot]

This theme - can anything break marriage vows? - keeps recurring in this forum and I'd like to hear people's thoughts on it.

People often bring up the "for better or for worse, through sickness and health, 'till death do us part" section of marriage vows and they quote them as a justification why a person must never leave their mentally-ill spouse, no matter what.

For many long, long years, I struggled with that "moral catch-22". That is, I felt that to leave my bipolar wife would be to abandon her, and that I had a moral obligation to her because of my marriage vows. And while I struggled and maintained the status quo, my life and my health went downhill.

After years of this, I finally understood that it's neither healthy for both partners, nor is it realistic or practical. Do those vows mean that you stay even if you do irreperable damage to yourself? Even if it destroys your own mental and physical health? Even if, because of your own deterioration, it creates an environment in which your mentally-ill spouse gets worse rather than better?

Besides which, the "never leave" marriage vow is broken all the time. Your wife, a teacher, was just convicted of statutory rape for having a two-year sexual affair with her 14-year-old student? Your physically abusive husband just shoved you down a flight of stairs and broke your collarbone for the sixth time? In cases like these, the "never leave" vow is voided with the blessing of both society and, in many cases, religion.

I finally came to... well, I was going to say "a realization", but it was more like I decided to acknowledge something that I knew was true but felt wrong nonetheless:

A marriage certificate is absolutely not a "get out of jail free" card.

For me, my wife's willful self-destruction, her abusive actions towards myself and my kids, and her refusal to help herself even though she knew she was ill and she was hurting the people around her, violated our wedding vows. As such, I knew that if it came to that point I could leave her and have no moral or ethical qualms about it.

So what about everyone else? In your opinion, is a marriage truly "till death do us part"?

No it is not, if they wont help themselves then I would leave. I am BPD hubby is DID and we both work to improve everyday of our lives. If he didnt and it was hurting me or my children then I would be off and I expect the same of him, that goes for physically disabled too.

[gordian_knot]

I should add - I didn't leave my wife. But I finally knew that I could. Armed with that decision, I resolved first to do everything - everything - within my power to try to help her.

And things got incredibly worse before it got better. But it did finally get better. Our marriage is stronger now than it has been in years and we've recommitted ourselves to our vows.

It's like the old parenting advice - never make a threat unless you intend to follow through with it. But luckily I didn't have to.

[bonaire]

'til death do us part...

To me that means something like "until the death of our relationship causes us to part".

In your situation, there was a struggle but not death entirely. A lot of people don't have the guts/balls/whatever - to make it through the tough situation you did. It's something I hope she realizes now or someday.

There is much forgiveness in marriages all around. I'm blessed that I was forgiven for actions in my marriage that were my fault. I have an extremely bland marriage - but it's working. A lot of people expect some kind of constant whirlwind and drama and if things falter a little bit, they want out. The test we are all given in life is to make it through these things and prove ourselves that we have the strength to do it. I think you proved it and are a great example others should follow.

You really should write the book - you could showcase your struggle and outcome and help a lot of people out.

[50guy]

35 years of ups and downs. More ups than downs.

Any infidelity abuse, mental or physical, is grounds for divorce, also abandonment, physical, or mental.

When.. I was 19... and for the following... 12 years... my attitude.. was "until death do us part"... thru my ex-husbands abuse.. thru his depressions... thru.. the "war fallout - I am sure now PTSD"... thru his.. having multiple degrees.. and not working...
Yes.. "till death do us part"..

Then.. a mircle entered my life... my baby... and.. by the Grace of God.. I knew.. it was to "save" me... this baby.. that I was never suppose to be able to have... because of... health problems..

so.. NO... it is not "until death do us part"...

no... it is not...

[gordian_knot]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
50guy said: Any infidelity, abuse, mental or physical, is grounds for divorce, also abandonment, physical, or mental.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Hm... I mostly agree, but things get a little cloudy once you dig into the details.

Let's take a look at two scenarios:
<ul type="square">[*]Your spouse is in a horrible car accident and is left in a persistive vegetative state. Doctors say that although she's breathing on her own she'll likely never wake up, and could spend decades in this state.[*]Your spouse develops chronic clinical depression. She refuses to leave her room, sleeps all the time, barely eats, and doesn't talk to anyone anymore.[/list]Could these be considered "physical or mental abandonment"? Well... yes, by definition. But there's no deliberate intent in either case. The coma isn't that person's fault, and neither is the clinical depression.

But for me, if the depressed wife refuses any help, that tips the scales the other way.

[StingInTheTail]

A decision to get married has to be one of the most optimistic leaps of faith that people can make. As such it's a transcendent act, one that links us to something bigger than our physical existence and time in this world.

I remember my thoughts around my wedding - I wanted everyone (and I included people I had not met, would never meet, and people I might meet some time in my life) to know that the person I was marrying meant that much to me, that that's how special and important they were to one other person in this world.

The problem with marriage certificates and vows is the thinking that they are somehow permits that have the same value as any other legal document or law. Actions can be legislated for, feelings can't, and it's feelings - a devotion to the other person and the ideal of two people being together- that create a marriage. A marriage is many things, but some kind of inviolable structure that protects people from all outside and inside forces? No, no, and no.

[desertnurse1977]

this, in fact, is something i myself have been looking at for a number of months. its almost like i am staring down the barrel of a gun, but its really hard to tell who is on the other end of it at times..... it almost feels like my wife is holding it against my will.... but when i examine the actual situation it almost feels as if i am the one holding the gun against myself......

here's ANOTHER can of worms.....

my name isnt on the house.... and neither of the kids are mine..... as a matter of fact there is VERY LITTLE holding me there as far as physical accomplishment is concerned.

But i look at the fact that her previous marriage was something that looked like the 7th circle of hell, her ex is even less of a father.

I'm kind of the glue holding it all together even though she would never admit it, and her BPD makes it at times almost impossible to be reasonable with. I try to bring a lot of stability to the family with a steady job, some decent morals (i hope) and standards that i really try to stand next to.......

somewhere through it all i have a very deep sense of commitment...... if i can call it that. i have a deep hope that i will get the person back that i married with enough patience and time. i feel as though it would be weak of me to quit ...... in fact that i would be the lesser person... even less than her (which is pretty mean in all aspects considering her condition - i'm not LITERALLY calling her weak... but its the best way to express it)

i relate it to abandoning a child who has no 'tools' (mental/physical) to provide for itself if a responsible party were not present.

HOWEVER - there are exceptions to this..... (which is pretty hard to draw a definate line in the sand.... SO MUCH has happened.. ugly arguements..... flip-flop behavior.... cheating.... financial abuse..... etc)

1 - i have laid down a 'this is it' ultimatum. i also have watched my own self worth swirl down the toilet as i try to pick it back out. i can't sit around and wait and hope for it to get better as she destroys our relationsip with infidelity and other wrecklesss behavior. i told her that if she wants this as bad as she says she does.... and begs me not to go..... the she has the chance to prove that she does. otherwise its a double-edged sword..... my unhappy/anger/unhealthy views brought about by all the situation DO NOT help anyone.... even us. all the counseling in the world is NOT going to help anyone if no one is willing to put forth the effort to make the change.

2 - I WANT MORE THAN ANYTHING to make this work. trust me when i say that i am not just taking it lightly or throwing in the towel. BUT...... the first person i need to worry about is myself. if i can't take care of myself (because no one else is) whats the point? if my self worth is constantly attacked, and i an whittled down to an emotional level no higher than my own wife... how can i support or be any kid of stable example to the children OR my wife?

3 - my job is suffering. this is absolutley UNACCEPTABLE. i LOVE LOVE LOVE what i do for a living. its what i always wanted and the feeling of accomplishment is what is keeping me going. but i am finding out that i am slowly loosing the filter between home/work and my whittled emotional state as well as energy is killing my performance.... plus putting people at risk. this makes for a very short or disappointing future... especially as i am attempting to go back to school and finish my degree. yes, sometimes you have to settle in your job to take care of people... but we are barely scraping by..... i have to be able to provide monetarily in order to help with stability.... its a necessary evil.

and in all of this i don't think i have mentioned on time that i love my wife or the kids. which is actually pretty sad when it comes down to it.

people anymore consider what each person brings to the table when marriage is contracted. once the other person faulters in their half of the 'contract' its almost as if it is automatically recinded in some kind of legal breach of contract. they don't consider what THEY bring to the relationship in terms of commitment and follow-thru in order to accomplish THEIR dreams and goals. its very self-ish and a need oriented establishment anymore. IMHO

[seeker1950]

Desertnurse, and Gordian...
It exhausts me to think of what people must go thru for the sake of keeping a marriage together. I'm divorced 11 years now ,after a 20 year unhappy marriage. We were ill-matched from the start, truly. I stayed, the entire time, because we had a daughter, whom he said he would take away from me and kick me out into the street with "nothing" and nowhere to go if I tried to leave. I was so intimidated, believing him, I stayed till she left for college. When she was young, I had no opportunity for employment, with my Art training and living in rural Va. Eventually, though, and all the while planning to be self-sufficient, I achieved my teaching certificate and got employment.
Now, looking back, I think I had more rights than I perceived at the time, and I could have gained my freedom much earlier.
I don't think even the presence of children should prevent one from making changes toward happiness. Children are deeply affected by living in an unhappy environment.
Patty

[Perna]

One's own health and life are paramount because, in the final analysis, that's all we have is ourselves; we can't live another person's life or they, ours. The marriage vows are religious in nature and the certificate, legal, so depends on how one feels about one's religion if one is talking about the vows. The societal "system" is designed to make it a bit difficult so people at least try to work together and learn to love one another, etc. instead of just coming and going and having children on a whim. But I've know particularly sensitive or religious people to take it a bit too far and sacrifice themselves which I don't think it is healthy.

I've been married nearly 20 years and knew who I was and who my husband was, etc. before I married (we were together 5 years before we married) and was quite sure I loved him and he me and that we could work together well in a marriage relationship. I've never even thought about potential divorce between the two of us.

[vetswife]

I left my first husband because of physical abuse. I was raised very religious (strict baptist) and it was a very hard decision to make. I made it for my son; I didn't want him to grow up thinking that's how you are supposed to treat women. Plus the cops started giving me an attitude for not leaving, I wouldn't press charges against my ex but they did and strongly advised me to leave. So I did. Long story short he is a wonderful father now, he got help for his problems.

But now I find myself in yet another mess. No physical abuse, he throws himself around and threatens to hurt himself and others but hasn't done anything yet (that I know of). He's very sick mentally IMO. He has Combat PTSD from desert storm, he was in a bad motorcycle accident, bad head injury, paralyzed right arm, he abuses his pain medication and he thinks he's above the law (because of his military back ground). I want soooo much just to be in another place, I just want to close my eyes and be in a supportive, loving relationship. He wants absolutely nothing to do with me. I fear I will never have a love life again and feel that I'm too young not to. I don't want to go through another divorce. I love my family life, my kids, birthdays, holidays having everyone together. I don't want that to change and divorces changes that dramatically. I guess I'm waiting for that straw to break the camels back. Last time it was the black eyes and bloody noses now I feel that I don't have a good enough excuse.

I came to the realization that I was not meant to be happy in my relationship. And to just be happy and count my blessings, I have three wonderful kids, they are happy and healthy, I have a roof over my head and food on the table. That's not so bad.

My Uncle is a Baptist pastor. He sais I have have grounds for divorce and would supports me if I were to leave (spiritualy speaking). So I think I have religious and legal reasons to leave. I'm just not ready to throw in the towel.

I swear I have the worst luck when it comes to relationships.

I think it depends on your limitations. Pros and cons of leaving or staying. Everyone has their breaking point.

Good luck and I hope you find your answers soon.

[allabout]

Dear Gordian Knot,
I'm new to this forum and when reading through posts have been drawn to yours as your story is quite similar to mine though my husband has not been diagnosed as Bipolar. His actions (e.g., online and in-person affairs, financial recklessness, etc) have hurt the family. The wonderful relationship we once had is becoming more of a memory. We are working on things but its so hard to rebuild trust. I was so pleased to see in your last post that you decided to stay and things are finally better. I know it takes a long time, but how long? Would love to hear more about how you reached the point of a better and stronger relationship. Thank you for sharing your story.
A.

[gordian_knot]

Hi, allabout. I've been realizing that there's quite a few people in situations like ours, where a spouse or caregiver struggles to deal with a partner with these kinds of serious problems. If you're interested in finding out how I dealt with my situation, most of the story is in this PsychCentral thead, with a follow-up thread here.

But, in a nutshell, here's what happened to me: my wife was seriously mentally ill - and misdiagnosed - for at least 6 years, and probably for much longer than that. She got much, much worse very suddenly last November, and she became a danger to herself and to our family. For nearly six months I did next to nothing and told no one because I didn't know what to do and was scared, and I hated myself for it. Finally, I decided that the fear of the unknown wasn't as awful as a lifetime of the status quo, so I finally made decisions and took steps to make things better for my family.

The next month was the most horrible time in my life. Ever.

But ever since then has been an amazing miracle. Better than I ever could've dreamed. My wife an I are truly, bone-deep happy and crazy in love, the way I always hoped we could be. I'm still stunned, frankly.

Some of the particulars in your situation might be different - do you suspect that your husband has a mental illness, or has he already been diagnosed? - and there's no guarantee things can turn around as quickly, but taking a step back to examine your status quo is very valuable. How slow or how fast things can get better is entirely up to you and the actions you take. The hard lesson I learned was that nothing will change if you don't make change happen yourself. And that's risky, and terrifying, and involves some hard decisions with no guarantee things'll go the way you want.

I had to ask myself how much my family and I could safely tolerate. And I decided that if my wife went beyond that point then I could no longer be with her and I'd need to start divorce and custody proceedings. Thank God it didn't come to that... but I don't regret drawing that line in the sand for myself, even for a second. I couldn't control her, but I could control me and I could decide to do what was best for my family.

... I'm probably not making a lot of sense. I really feel for you. I can almost taste the echo of the frustration and helplessness I felt during those long months and years, and I know it can't be easy for you. Feel free to PM me if you'd like some more info - I'd be happy to help.

[allabout]

Thank you. I will read through more of your posts - it is validating in a way to hear that others have had such similar struggles. I'm not sure how to PM yet but I'll figure it out. I do wonder about the Bipolar diagnosis. I know many have been diagnosed with major depression (the current diagnosis) only later to be more correctly diagnosed as Bipolar. I'm not sure that there have been any "manic" episodes, but without knowing very much about the illness I would imagine there are shades of gray with that. Maybe the ongoing online relationships does fall under that category...

Making a decision is definitely hard for me. I don't know where to draw the line and I haven't figured out how I'll know when I know. Thank you for your support.

[gordian_knot]

The rampant misdiagnosis of bipolar disorder drives me absolutely crazy. There are a few simple questions that every therapist should always ask to help nail it down. And the reason these questions are so important is because antidepressant meds by themselves can make bipolar disorder much, much worse.

You may not be aware that there are several types of bipolar disorder and not all of them include typical "manic" episodes. The most common, Bipolar Type I, has extreme manic highs and mild-to-moderate depressive lows. My wife is Bipolar Type II, and that type has mild-to-moderate highs which show as periods of functional irritability and moodiness, and it also has extended periods of extreme depressive lows that are as bad or worse than severe clinical depression. Bipolar II is the one that's most often misdiagnosed as clinical depression.

My wife was misdiagnosed for most of her adult life and it just about killed her. Now that she's been correctly diagnosed and treated, it's like she's been reborn.

So when you consider your husband, ask yourself: is his depression constant and chronic, or does he have periods when he can function, but is irritable, angry, moody and/or irrational, before slipping back into depression again? In other words, do his depressive symptoms seem somewhat cyclical, coming in intervals? During those "up" periods, does he do things that are risky, unwise or out-of-character (i.e. his spending habits or sexual behaviours)? Do you find that antidepressants don't work the way the doctors say they should?

If you answer yes to those questions, find out more about bipolar disorder. Take PsychCentral's Bipolar screening quiz on your husband's behalf , and also read this website about Bipolar II disorder .

I can imagine how hard this is for you. Hopefully the people here on this forum can give you some small amount of support.

[allabout]

Indeed, there are too many stories about people misdiagnosed for years before the right medications are found for the right illness. I often wonder how a therapist finally reaches the point of asking the right questions. I've been told that the problem is most people seek out therapy when their in the depressive state and therefore the therapist doesn't (think to) ask the appropriate questions.

[allabout]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
gordian_knot said:
...quite a few people in situations like ours, where a spouse or caregiver struggles to deal with a partner with these kinds of serious problems.

Reading through past threads about relationships and spouses or partners it's striking how many people are experiencing something similar.

LMo and DesertNurse, both of you seem to have gone through - or are going through - struggles similar to GK and to my own. Do you mind sharing, do your spouses also have a diagnosis of Bipolar? It's so helpful to "hear" what others have gone through and the steps they have taken - with differing levels of success. I wish happiness to all of you!

[gordian_knot]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
allabout said:
I've been told that the problem is most people seek out therapy when their in the depressive state and therefore the therapist doesn't (think to) ask the appropriate questions.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Yet they're supposed to be trained to do exactly that. When you go to a medical doctor with intense abdominal pain, they ask you questions, run blood tests, maybe get X-rays or an ultrasound if needed, and then assess and review all of the information before deciding on a diagnosis. Why then, when you go to a therapist and say "I'm feeling really depressed", should a therapist promptly jump all over "clinical depression" as a diagnosis? Yet there's anecdotal evidence this happens all the time.

[desertnurse1977]

allabout:

if you want you can go through my profile to post i have made to read about my experiences.

[allabout]

I've read in many posts here, and I've been told it myself, "anybody else in your situation would have left a long time ago." What do you do with that information? How do you decide if the difference between you and this "anybody else" is that you're way stronger than them or you just too weak or scared or insecure or uncertain to do anything but stay? How strong is it to stay in a situation when you've been lied to and cheated on and you end up feeling like maybe it was something you did. maybe it's something that you're doing that has caused the problems? Is the memory of the relationship that once was so great enough to hold on to? Or is it just a dream to think it will come back?

[allabout]

I have read up on it a little, but are there other tests that detect Bipolar - more than talking and asking questions? Isn't one of aspect of the illness an ability to manipulate and say the right thing to get the intended outcome?

[gordian_knot]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
allabout said:
I've read in many posts here, and I've been told it myself, "anybody else in your situation would have left a long time ago." What do you do with that information?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
I've gotten that same comment quite a few times in my own situation. Our family doctor even said it to me, point blank, out of nowhere. But what does it mean? Does it mean you're a saint for staying and trying to make things work, or an idiot for staying because it's a hopeless situation?

The same questions ran through my mind the first few times it was said to me, but I finally realized something: it's a meaningless platitude said by people who don't - and can't - truly understand what's going on but feel they need to say something to you. Maybe people say it in a misguided but well-meaning attempt to try to make you feel better, the same way that people will say clumsily inappropriate things to a widow at a funeral.

So do what a widow would do - just nod politely, change the subject and mentally dismiss it. The situation you're in - the feelings, struggles, obstacles, the personalities and histories involved, and so on - are unique to you and can't be superficially compared to anyone else in a single offhand statement.

Only you can decide for yourself, taking everything into consideration, where to draw the line.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
allabout said:
How strong is it to stay in a situation when you've been lied to and cheated on and you end up feeling like maybe it was something you did. maybe it's something that you're doing that has caused the problems?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
Infidelity and dishonesty are choices. I have no way to know how the situation between yourself and your husband came to be the way it is, but how he reacts to that situation is entirely of his choosing. You may be responsible for some of the situation, but you are not responsible for his choices. Please don't bring yourself lower by telling yourself that you are.

[gordian_knot]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
allabout said:
I have read up on it a little, but are there other tests that detect Bipolar - more than talking and asking questions? Isn't one of aspect of the illness an ability to manipulate and say the right thing to get the intended outcome?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
Yes, in fact that's very typical of a lot of mental illnesses, which is why they can be difficult to diagnose. A good therapist has specific training to pierce the facade and get to the truth, but it's still hard given the limited time with their clients.

That's why your observations are so important. You've watched your husband's behaviors for hours every day for years. You've been in the best position to see his true self behind the mask. You may not have the training, but there's two things you can do: you can document what you feel are unusual and noteworthy behaviors that you've noticed and go to a therapist yourself to try to get a second-hand opinion, or you can do a bunch of reading yourself and try to become your own mini-expert. Unfortunately there's no other way that I know of to test for bipolar disorder or most other mental illnesses - it's all about trying to fit observed symptoms into a category that provides the best explanation.

[desertnurse1977]

this is turning into a good thread.

i wake up every morning and i put my pants on one leg at a time. i think to myself 'its another day' and treat it as such. i go to work, and do the best i can at my job and treat it as my time outside the house. i take advantage of EVERY MOMENT i have there. i work out regularly. there is NO stress reliever like physical exertion. i do A LOT of cardio - at least an hour every session. i run for 30 minutes and do 30 minutes on the eliptical. and i push myself harder every time i go.

i read books - nonfiction. at try to at least read one a month. biographies here or there, and af course studying takes up a bit of time.

that is a BIG part of how i deal with my situation. do i care about 'anyone else would have left by now' comments? sometimes.... they do make me think. but then i look at how people in the last 20-30 years treat personal commitment. IMHO we are a self-serving society - or we are at least very rapidly becoming that way. we don't care about how our comments or treatment of others effects them because a great percentage of people these days are out for themselves.

i'm not saying that there are NO selfless people out there...... it just seems like there are less of them - especially when i look at my grandparents generation and compare it to the current.

its VERY hard to not just pack my bags and leave. trust me i've often considered it. i do know that her condition is not her fault - and its something i am sure that she deals with much more than i probably do.