History repeats...

So a few months back, my girlfriend (at the time anyway, she's now my fiancée) and I had a mid-size argument regarding a client of the company that she works for.

We've lived together for just over three years now. Been together for about 3.5 years.

She's a care provider for a company that has privately owned homes in town in which they house their clients. Typically two to three clients per house with one care giver at a time. She works Tuesday morning - Thursday evening.

A male client that lives in a house probably about a mile away (i'll call it house 2) used to walk to house 1 (where my fiancée works). He would hang out and they would talk, innocently.

This would happen just about every tuesday and wednesday for roughly 2-6 hours daily. They once had a conversation about him having issues with "falling" for female care givers. My fiancee even asked HIM if HE thought SHE was attractive. He answered "Hell yeah!".............

He would also call her late nights (9pm or so) alot, sometimes I was still on the phone w/her.

She had also text messaged this client via her cell phone to his. Supposedly to send jokes.

I was able to come visit, but only for a few minutes at a time. She would always push me out the door saying that her "boss" could drop by at any minute and me being there wouldnt' be good. Privacy issues and whatnot.

Ok, so he was allowed to be there because he was a client in the same company, but just a different house. ( He is there because he has bipolor disorder ).

Anyway, theres more to it but we had our scuffle. I told her it bothered me him spending so much time w/her and calling so much, especially late nights. She told me he just needed someone to talk to and she was only trying to help him out by listening.

Even though I pointed out the fact that I was in discomfort w/the situation, she fought me on it. She was making point after couter point defending him and his coming over.

She told me she had talked w/him about the calling and coming over and how it bugged me, her boyfriend (at the time). The talk must not have done much good because he kept calling, when he called she refused to answer the phone because she knew it was him and that it would upset me.

To make a long story short, in the end I told her that there is a simple way to make this problem go away. Quit talking w/the guy so much. Quit hanging out w/him socially. If he's going to be there - he's going to be there for a reason AND with the rest of his house (other client and caregiver). There's no need for him to be alone w/her.

Somehow, someway... i've never been informed on how this happened but he just up and quit calling, coming over, etc. out of the blue.

This was a few months back like I said and up until today, it's been a dead issue. She calls me (she left for work this morning, won't be back until thursday) and begins telling me that there is some overtime available, though it's at house 2, where this client lives.

It was a full shift, beginning Thursday night - ending Sunday Morning. She wanted my permission to do the shift, as she knew how I felt about this guy.

She asked me to think it through. This was at 11 am today. At about 2:30 I text message her on her phone and tell her something like this:

Me: I've thought about you doing the OT over there, and i've decided that it's a decision that you need to make. Me telling to that you can't work somewhere and can't make extra cash would be unfair to you.

Her: I want to be sure that it's ok with you because I know how you feel about this guy. I don't want it to cause any tension between us. Just so you know, since our last talk about him he's not come over or called!

Me: It'll only cause tension if he starts calling you late nights again, coming over again or worse yet, text messaging you again. I don't trust him for anything. Specially after he kept calling you late nights after you asked him not to.

Her: Well its an easy house, easy over time, I don't want to pass that up.

Me: I understand, it's your choice to make. Just consider how I feel about the situation.

Her: I'll tell my boss then.

Me: So you're going to do it?

Her: If I can

Me: You don't think that you going over to see him is going to be the catalyst for him to start coming over again and calling again and wanting to be around you again?

Her: No. Nothing will change from how it is now.

Me: How do you know?

Her: You don't trust my judgement.

Me: I trust you with my life. It's HIM I don't trust. He's had a violent history, you text messaged him behind my back almost getting you fired

blah blah blah. We basically got into the same argument we did a few months back.

I thought this issue was dead and gone but now it's poked it's little evil head back into our lives.

The first time this happened, toward the end of a week and a half long argument over this, I was considering leaving her over this. She knew my discomfort - I asked her to make it stop and she protested. I had few other choices, finally we came to a conclusion that he was not good for our relationship.

Now she wants to go to the house where he lives and stay a full three nights over there, with her being the only caregiver.

Though, I did ask her to make the decision - I simply meant that as a gesture for her to take it on herself to decline because I simply did not approve and she should have known that.

She kind of fought me on it again - saying it's all for the money and we need it.

While this might be true - we could very well use the money - to me it's simply not worth the hassle and I let her know that. I also told her if we have to go through this B.S with this guy again, I'm done.

She asked how we can solve this problem and I tell her by talking about it. She says that she doesn't know that she can handle that... talking about it last time about "did her in". Meaning she also was considering leaving me at the time.

Now she says she should have known better to ever have even asked and she should have declined.

What do you think? Am I over-reacting? Am I the jealous boyfriend?

Why should she have even considered leaving me in the first place? She was the one getting into a client that's not even in her house & allowing him over to just hang out and taking his late night phone calls. Even if they are just friends - is that reason enough to rip apart an engaged couple?

I'm so confused right now. Please help me make sense of this gibberish!

Hi Gleak,

Boy, this is quite the situation. Having been a caretaker for individuals myself, I have some fairly decent incite into what it takes and what caretakers boundaries should be. I also see something you have done here to set her up and I'll discuss that a bit later.

First of all, setting of boundaries with clients is a MUST. One cannot be a "friend" of a client. There has to be a clear cut line that should not be crossed by client or caretaker. Granted it is hard to do at times because caretakers are usually in this kind of job because the want to help others. But helping others also includes teaching them healthy boundaries. So far, it doesn't sound like she's been able to accomplish that for whatever reason.

I'm curious as to why he would even have her cell phone number? When I was working with folks, I NEVER gave them my cell or home number. They had emergency numbers to call and then I would be called from the agency if need be. I'm even more curious as to why the agency allows him to be at another home for so many hours on end? If he is there so much, then what kind of effort is she putting into the home she's working in? This is a concern in my eyes.

Now, I mentioned that there was something you said/did that I wanted to comment on. The fact that you told her that it was her decision whether or not to work the extra overtime, when in fact you did not want her to do it at all. In communicating with folks, one must say what they mean. If you leave it up to the other person to make the decision, you must be ready to accept their decision and not hold against them if they decide to do something. You cannot expect her to make the decision you want her to make if you do not say what you mean. In other words, you are telling her one thing and expecting another. That is not fair to her. That was setting her up for a fall if she made the wrong decision (what you perceived as the wrong decision).

I understand how hard this can be for the both of you. I truly hope you can find a way to work through this issue. I wish you both well!


sabby

my reaction is along the same lines as sabby. the situation has gotten really murky...your fiance is not following healthy guidelines re her role as a caregiver, imho. i'm baffled by her behavior in this matter.
what sabby said re you is right on. otherwise you're giving mixed messages. also it sounds like this needs to be discussed by you two. you all can't move forward in your relationship without coming to a common resolution. sounds like the way things are now it's like the gigantic pink elephant in the living room. i hope you all can work it out.

Hey guys,

I really appreciate your replies. While I understand everything that the both of you have commented, I too am confused as to why she behaves the way she does sometimes.

She truly is a remarkable person. She has a great sense of selflessness and typically, others come first. She always says that IF she can help someone, she will.

She has explained to me in the past during our first argument regarding this client that what happens when he comes over is he does his laundry and visits with her. According to her, he has a legitimate right as a client of this company to use the company washers & dryers. According to my fiancee, his house has no washer or dryer.

However, other houses in the area that are also owned by the same company, do.

Also, she's told me that all of the other houses are pretty much in the same distance range of each other. So the walk to a different house shouldn't be any extra effort on his part, no?

I asked her exactly how she could explain him being there for up to 6 hours a day doing laundry. All the while, he was walking there... Perhaps with up to 3-4 loads of laundry?

I never really got a clear, defining answer to this question.

I also asked her to talk with upper management within the company. Let them know that being around him is uncomfortable for her. This could be easily explained away. For one, he's already admitted to have a crush on my fiancee. He's also got a history of falling for the female care givers within the company. All she would have to do is mention that his extended visits and late night phone calls were becoming too much for her and making her feel uncomfortable.

She pretty much refused to do this! Why? I don't know as it would really make me feel so very much better. I let her know that little tid bit as well.

I mentioned before that somehow, someway, this guy just up and quit coming over and calling, period. I asked her how this could be since nobody has ever spoken to management regarding this?

She cannot tell me. Either that, or she will not tell me. Perhaps, he still calls and drops by? How would I ever truly know? This is exactly why I would NEED her management to get involved to put my mind at rest.

Now, regarding me setting her up, I can see what you mean. Perhaps I was being unfair with how I reacted. You're absolutely right - If I told her it was a decision she needs to make, I should have accepted it. I definitely could have used more tact to handle the situation. To be perfectly honest, that was my original intention. I was going to just let it pass, but to explain, not justify, my emotions came rushing in and they're not easy to overcome sometimes.

I really didn't want to just up and tell her no, though. I didn't want to be "that guy".

I am going to be calling her in roughly an hour. Typically we talk every night for about an hour or so.

I want to talk with her about this situation, but I really want to do that when we're both home, face to face. It's more personal that way, more intimate I guess.

What do you think? Is it best to have conversations like this via the phone when I could simply wait another evening and have the conversation face to face?

Do you think I should let her know some of the points that the two of you brought up regarding boundaries as a caregiver?

My thoughts are so jumbled on this that I don't know whats the best move to make right now. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

i think if she has already told her management she will do the shift, then it is unfair for you to bring up this conversation again. accept that what you did was unfair - setting her up for a fall, so to speak - and just support her until Sunday.

if this issue comes up again, then it would be wise to have a face to face discussion then. but i dont think it's fair for right now - i don't think she is doing anything wrong.

Hey deliquesce,

Thanks for the reply.

To explain, my fiancée had called me and essentially had asked my permission to do the shift. She hadn't yet told her supervisor that she would do the shift.

However, I do realize that since I asked her to make the decision, I should have lived with whatever she thought was right.

I do trust that she can make correct decisions.

My reasoning for acting the way I had was I didn't want this client to believe that the friendship they once had can be re-ignited. I believe the possibility of my fiancée being around him for 3 days & nights straight, would be a catalyst for him to try and make it so.

Though I do believe she wouldn't let that happen. However, I also believed she would never act so inappropriately with a client in this company. Why would she intentionally give him her cell phone number and exchange text messages to begin with? She also exchanged text messages with him while SHE was at HOME with me. She also didn't tell me about them... I had to FIGURE IT OUT with conversation and confront her. That's beyond a professional client/caregiver relationship.

Wouldn't you feel the same way if it was your significant other hanging out socially with a client of a company they worked for? Especially knowing that YOU CAN'T spend time with her while he/she is there?

She took his late night phone calls and hung out with him all day Tuesday & Wednesday. She accepted gifts from him such as photo's of scenery the clients father had taken.

That's too intimate of a friendship for MY FIANCÉE to be having with another man!

He admittedly has a "crush" on her and has told her she was good looking in an enthusiastic manner. Matter of fact, it was my fiancée that had asked him - Do you think i'm hot? That's not what I expect from my future wife and I will not accept it.

When I initially began explaining to her that his closeness to her was becoming a problem for me, she protested and said she was doing nothing wrong. To this day, she dislikes the fact that I don't like him and her hanging out.

She put her job in jeopardy by text messaging him. The caregiver from the house he always came from talked with management regarding the appropriateness of the visits. Management confronted this client regarding his intentions and he replied that she's good company and helps by listening to his problems.

So i've been told.

Had management been more curious about the situation, they could have pulled phone records of BOTH my fiancee as well as the client and learned they had text messaged each other, as well as called each other! Learning that this had happened when SHE was off-shift and AT HOME, this could have led to prison time. There are laws against these sorts of things. What could I have done to prevent it? Nothing.

[Edit]

During the first argument, she thought I was trying to keep her from having "male friends". I said that's not so. This is different. She explained: If I (she) were at say.. wal-mart, met a guy looking at a product they were both interested in, would it be wrong to go and have lunch with this guy and discuss the product?

I said hell yeah that would be wrong. You don't take strange guys out to lunch when you're in a committed relationship! Maybe... MAYBE if I were invited along would it be alright.

I asked her if a girl with a great car (i'm an auto tech) came through the shop and we hit it off talking about her car, how would she feel if I took this girl to lunch to discuss the car? She told me that if it was innocent and was truly a lunch about the car.. she would be fine with it.

Yeah, ok. But what happens when the one lunch about the car turns into a phone call to say hi what's up that turns into another lunch...

You see what i'm trying to say? She was hellbent on being not in the wrong. Her actions in the past are a direct result of how I am acting now.

[/edit]

So, in conclusion, I stand by my reaction and hold firm on my position. I just wish I would have handled it with more tact and just said "Doing that shift would make me uncomfortable. Please don't" or something like that.

Sorry to double post. I just wanted to add something that was off-topic of my last...

She and I had talked tonight. I apologized to her for reacting the way that I did and I explained that it was my every intention to take her decision as "the way it was" and let it go.

However, I explained, my emotions took over and I sometimes have an issue where my emotions speak for me.

We re-hashed the origin of the problem, cool, calm and collected and talked about the best way to handle the situation.

Not being in the dark about how he just quit calling and coming by was a big starter. Letting management in on the situation was another.

Not necessarily going into detail, but letting them know that he was getting too attached too quickly and she prefer to not do the shift though if necessary, she would do it.

This way when management needed help at this particular house, she wouldn't be the first on the list to call. She is very dependable and is great at what she does so she IS a valuable resource there.

We talked for almost two hours tonight and I think things went well and she understands where i'm coming from and why I think it best if they had as little contact as possible.

It's not as if i'm tearing her apart from a lifelong friend. She barely met him a few months ago when all of this started happening so I don't feel guilty about my decisions and way of thinking.

well, it seems like you have made up your mind, and it sounds like things are sorted between you and your fiance.

i would personally have a huge problem if the guy i was dating had a problem with me talking to clients. we wouldn't get to fiance stage if that was an issue between us.

but different strokes for different folks. i'm glad things have worked out.

Well, yes my mind is relatively made up lol. Things are (as far as I can tell) going nice and smoothly between the fiancee and I.

However, I'm not barring her from talking to clients. She is a woman and is able to be herself and talk with whom she likes. I am only asking that she keep a certain level of professionalism with her relationships of clients.

Taking personal calls and text messages on your offtime from a client is a friendship. That's all fine and well but it's not just wrong, imo.. it's illegal. Here anyway.

I am not a control monger. I just don't trust this guy. She's only met him a few months ago and already he's causing a problem with OUR relationship. Why? Because he has a crush on her and is calling her late nights and coming over just to chat for hours on end. She asked him if he thought she was hot. That's not appropriate for a caregiver to ask a client. Am I wrong?

I just don't want this to be an escalating issue and making him go away is the easiest solution.

Maybe I am being too pushy on the subject, but I don't like another man all up on my woman.

well... you mentioned earlier that you would have a problem with her going off to lunch with some guy she met at the mall. so - it's not the fact that you "only" want her to be professional with clients, it sounds like a lot more than "just" that. it sounds like you have a problem with her making new friendships with anyone she meets. to me, anyway.

i think your last sentence summed it up "i don't like another man all up on my woman". if your fiance is happy with that, then fine. if not - then maybe you need to reassess your views else she decides it's getting "too much" like last time you almost broke up.

I see what you're saying. She's found many new friends through work and otherwise and they are good people. I have no issues with her finding and making new friends.

The issue I have on this matter is going on a "date" with someone when you're already in a committed relationship.

My fiancee would be very upset if I were to take some girl out to lunch without inviting her, regardless of why I took her out. That's just not something that a person does.

I even spoke with my older sister regarding this matter. She's been married for years and explained to me that if her husband took some other girl out to lunch that he met somewhere, and she only heard about it after the fact, they would have problems. I'm not the only one with this type of thinking.

If she met a man at the mall or wal-mart and thought they were cool, why wouldn't she invite me out along if they had suddenly arranged a lunch date? After all, I am the man she says she wants to spend the rest of her life with.

Having worked in this field, I'm with sabby, I cannot think of any reason your girlfriend would give out her personal numbers to any clients. When my kids were small, I did bring them in from time to time on days off to visit those people that never had guests.

I would bet money the reason she doesn't want to inform management about this issue is because I can't imagine any reputable place approving of her behavior (ie giving out home number.) In my opinion she has stepped over the line. In fact, I am sure that this would be a termination offense in the places that I've worked. I am sure that she is well aware of the boundaries. If I were her, to cover her own butt, I'd change my number and tell him that I no longer have a personal cell.

As for the gifts, that is a total no-no! You couldn't even take a stick of gum or a piece of candy! These people are disabled, many would give you anything and everything they have. There is no wiggle room here to prevent someone from taking advantage of them. The only allowance that the company I worked for made was at Christmas time, they would look the other way when family members gave us cookies or candy. FAMILY members, not the clients themselves.

I would be very uncomfortable if my husband had visited my at work with the exception of lunch time. I'm an adult, this is my job, none of your concern. My husband and I have worked at the same place before, and he was never in my work area unless he was supposed to be there. He would bring me a soda from time to time or stop by and ask what time I was taking my break, but never did he hang around to chat. Nor did I enter his work area unless I had a reason to be there.

I also have to add that I have NEVER asked my husband for permission to do anything. Things like major purchases we discuss of course, but I've never ever asked him if I could do something or go somewhere. Nor has he ever asked. Out of courtesy well will say "hey, do you have anything planned... I want to go..."

It set my teeth on edge when she asked your permission, I was very pleased to read that you felt it was her decision. I wish you would have held to that.

Trust is a very important issue, if you do not trust her now, it is very likely that you never will. I have had male friends that I've gone to lunch with (usually breakfast because we worked night shift) without my husband and he has had female friends that he's had lunch with without me.

hi gleak. it sounds like to me after reading all your posts that you both have some major issues to see if this is going to work. i see red flags on both y'alls part that make me feel that there's a lot of controversy between you two. maybe some couple counseling would help you all work out these issues.
i still feel that her actions with clients is questionable re professional ethics but i see some stuff going on with you too re your relationship "rules' and boundaries/control. would she agree to couple's counseling? would you?

Just to set the record straight, she doesn't have to ask my permission for anything. She only asked about that shift as she knew this guy would be trouble, in which case I believe she should have just declined.

I would be open to couples counseling, though I can't speak for her.

Again, to set the record straight - we've had our disagreements and arguments, our ups and downs. We talk silly to each other and enjoy each others company.

We still go out on dates - to movies, dinner, ice cream - we make each other laugh and feel good about each other. We still go on vacation once a year together and have a great time.

Our relationship has been quite strong, with very few bumps in the road up until just a few months ago. That's not bad for a 3.5 year long relationship.

When she invited me over to her place of work to finally meet the guy that's been calling her late nights and giving her gifts that she's accepted - etc, I was kind of shocked when I shook his hand.

You see, my fiancee is 24, so is this guy. He was wearing headphones that were blaring music, had on very colorful clothing and had a bright red mohawk. The first thing he did was look at me like I was a joke.

The little bit of conversation we had struck up was about her and he complimented her on her taste of clothing on down to her looks.

Not long after this - her company threw a company hallloween party. That night, I went dressed a mechanic lol. My finacee wore a clown wig. I tried all evening to get a photo of her WITHOUT HIM in the picture, but I couldn't. When we decided to leave... HE leaned in to her and whispered something into her ear.

I had asked her what he whispered - she said he asked if everything was alright.

Is that really his business? Should he be close enough to her to really and truly care about her relationship status with me?

Yes, I would be totally for relationship counseling - and if that is what it takes, i'll ask her if she's willing to do the same.

I do love her with all of my heart and for all that i'm worth. I've done nothing but give her all that I have and worked hard and she's done the same. I am willing to do anything to make things right. I need her in my life.

Gleak, I think you aren't communicating very well with your girlfriend/fiance. You said,

"Though, I did ask her to make the decision - I simply meant that as a gesture for her to take it on herself to decline because I simply did not approve and she should have known that."

She cannot read your mind! You have to say, in words, exactly what you think and mean. You did a double message with the "you decide" when you didn't mean that at all!

I think you need to work on either trusting your girlfriend or your relationship isn't going to work ultimately. She's another person with her own life, etc. She has to make her own decisions, truly, and it was kind of her to ask your opinion but I think you did her a disservice not giving her your true opinion! What I quoted above amounts to a double bind, no matter which "half" she responds to, she can't win. She decided for herself as you told her to do and you're unhappy. If she had let you make the decision, that would have hurt her and her own life.

As I mentioned before I think your gf crossed a line in her job. But you must remember she cannot control anyone else and holding her responsible or questioning her about his behavior is rather pointless.

I do think that relationship will end badly (between her and client). I also think that she needs to establish some boundaries and quickly. My concern isn't so much for your relationship, it's for the client. They're very vulnerable. It worries me greatly. I would like you to try to step out of the relationship for a moment and consider him. He's not your rival, he is a very sick man. Your girlfriend sent him very conflicting messages by giving him personal information and accepting gifts.

My husband and I have been married almost as long as your girlfriend has been alive and if you listen to one piece of advice please listen to us on this. Throughout your future relationship there are things that are going to come up; you must express your thoughts honestly. Expecting your partner to know what you want deep down will only cause problems. I really hope that you iron this out.

gleak - you can't control your fiance's behaviour, and you can't control her client's behaviour. i think you need to start trusting that she will make the right decisions. this whole thread to me reads like one big trust issue that needs to be addressed.

i do not work as a carer, and i do not know the professional code of conduct. what everyone else has said here seems sound, though.

but i dont think that your issue is limited to this one client. it sounds like you would be upset with *any* male that your fiance might have a friendly relationship with. i am 24, and i have a lot of male friends who txt me late at night, who i go out to lunch with, who would "lean in close" and ask me if everything is ok. if i had a fiance who had a problem with that, then i would have a problem with him, because it would speak of him thinking that *i* was not being appropriate, that i somehow don't know how to regulate my own behaviour.

if your fiance says there is nothing wrong with her relationship to her client, then i think you need to trust her on that. if there truly is something wrong, then that would be up for management to take action on.

Wow, I had a huge, long post made up and when I went to submit it, poof.. It was gone after I had to re-log in!

Anyway, the point is - you're pretty much right. I did have trust issues. They stemmed from way back when.

However, this client is in a state run facility for a mental disorder, pretty much this makes him an at risk adult.

He absolutely does need help. Though, he doesn't need an attractive caregiver asking him about her physical appearance or accepting his gifts and what not. (The photo's he gave her are still in my house, they're in the other room on the shelf...)

My main problem that brought on the trust issues were the fact that she had only known him for a month, and already was text messaging her personal cell phone, calling her personal cell phone as well as her house phone at work and coming over very often just to hang out.

I only learned about all of this a month after she met him at work.

Anyway, I do appreciate all of the replies and comments. They've been a huge help!