[dirtandearth]

Hi everyone. I have been lurking here for a while. I have been so glad to see how helpful you are to each other and to yourselves, and how much thought and effort you all put into your posts. I have wanted to post, but have been terrified to do that. I have read the links that everyone has posted from Pope and other places, about why you should not have a relationship with T. But if you already are, and feel that you cannot stop, anymore than you can stop eating, what do you do? Usually it feels fine, wonderful, in fact the most beautiful, real thing in my life, but other times, the loneliness, the inability to talk to anyone about it, the other feelings, of jealousy, longing, and more . . . is there anywhere to go for help? If not, and the answer is just that I have dug my own grave, then I have to accept that. Thank you all for being here, and for taking the time to read this.

Welcome to the forum.

I honestly believe that there should be no reason why a therapist and client should not be allowed to enter into a relationship with one another. Life is life, feelings are natural. Wild animals don't come up with this ******** about not entering into a relationship with one another due to ethical reasons.

There are too many ridiculous morals and stigms in society and because of this we have yet to leave the Victorian era behind. We like to think we have, but we haven't.

So you are actually in a romantic relationship with your current therapist? Not just in love with him or her?

I have always thought the rule is a one size fits all solution for something that really is a problem for most people. There is a good reason for the rule -- protecting people who are in a really vulnerable, exposed position. However, that is not to say that a therapist/client relationship NEVER works. There are always consequences, however, if the therapist gets caught and exposed, and generally it's pretty catastrophic for the therapist. Most therapists would rather end the relationship when push comes to shove, than end their careers. Sex with a client gets the therapist put on probation with the disciplinary board. [In our state anyway.] MARRYING the client, or refusing to end the relationship results in the therapist losing his or her license.

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

So you are actually in a romantic relationship with your current therapist? Not just in love with him or her?

I have always thought the rule is a one size fits all solution for something that really is a problem for most people. There is a good reason for the rule -- protecting people who are in a really vulnerable, exposed position. However, that is not to say that a therapist/client relationship NEVER works. There are always consequences, however, if the therapist gets caught and exposed, and generally it's pretty catastrophic for the therapist. Most therapists would rather end the relationship when push comes to shove, than end their careers. Sex with a client gets the therapist put on probation with the disciplinary board. [In our state anyway.] MARRYING the client, or refusing to end the relationship results in the therapist losing his or her license.

That stuff does happen but I just think that it is the biggest pile of arse gravy that I have ever heard. We haven't left the Victorian era yet. We still allow morals, ethics and stigmas to dictate our society. There is nothing unnatural about people having feelings for one another. What is unnatural are these ridiculous stigmas attached to people that ends up dictating how they live their lives and who with.

Secondly, it may end up hurting the client. But, I for one, live in a supposedly democratic country. It should be the clients decision with this in mind not anybody else's. Therapists shouldn't be punished. They are living their lives. Solicitor's are both ethically and legally entitled to enter into a relationship with their clients despite having personal informatin on them (including in some cases gory details on rape victims and other things).

We should be free to make our own choices. No book or teacher should be able to tell us what to do.

Personally, it isn't possible for me to feel any more hurt than I do at the moment, so if my ex-T did end up hurting me, it would be a risk worth taking. I don't even particularly want sex with her (I wouldn't say no, she was beautiful), she was a lovely person and I would love to have her as a friend if nothing else.

Teachers shouldn't have sex with their students. Doctors shouldn't have sex with their patients. CEO's shouldn't have sex with their secretaries. For people in the military, officers aren't allowed to have sex with enlisted. Not because people aren't adults or because we are puritanical prudes, but because when there is a large power differential, sexual relationships are very likely to be harmful. Throw in a fragile personality, a mental illness, or even just a temporary traumatic life event as happens in therapy and the harm is potentially very grave.

That said, I recently saw a poll that 9.5% of male therapists have had sex with a client. Almost 1 in 10! I was very surprised. (The ration of female therapists having sex with clients was MUCH smaller. Which tells me something more about power in the relationship, but I won't go there in this post).

Originally Posted by lucydog

Teachers shouldn't have sex with their students. Doctors shouldn't have sex with their patients. CEO's shouldn't have sex with their secretaries. For people in the military, officers aren't allowed to have sex with enlisted. Not because people aren't adults or because we are puritanical prudes, but because when there is a large power differential, sexual relationships are very likely to be harmful. Throw in a fragile personality, a mental illness, or even just a temporary traumatic life event as happens in therapy and the harm is potentially very grave.

That said, I recently saw a poll that 9.5% of male therapists have had sex with a client. Almost 1 in 10! I was very surprised. (The ration of female therapists having sex with clients was MUCH smaller. Which tells me something more about power in the relationship, but I won't go there in this post).

Certainly teachers shouldn't have sex with students (that's underage and illegal ). But the other examples should be a matter of choice. Nobody else should be able to choose for you. To me your example shows me that men have more common sense than women (only joking ).

[ur_ladybird]

Hi dirtandearth,

Client-therapist love relationships.

Yes it does happen, but it shouldn't. Beside All the reasons all ready given above... Code of ethics etc, it is very easy to fall in love with your therapist. Therapists are in a position of trust and therapy emulates compassion... Who wouldn't fall in love with the person who understands fully (at least so it feels) your inner self (clients view... )!

But here is something to think about, what happens down the line when the feeling of love fades a little? What if the relationship turns sour somewhere on the way... The therapist knows things others don't... If he went into a relationship with you in the first place you couldn't count on him doing the gentleman thing if things turned sour.

What are you doing about getting therapy for the issue you present the therapist in the first place? Being in a romantic relationship takes the effect of a therapeutic relationship away.

Therapists get training for the situation should a client show romantic feelings for them. They themselves have supervisors to help them should they feel romantic feelings towards a client. The so called "Dating fantasy" is part of their training as a therapist. But whom can you turn to? ... You are in the right place! We can give you support, but I would also consider seeing another therapist. You don't need to mention names, but any trained therapist will be familiar with your situation and might be able to help you. how about friends or family?

It sounds a little like having an affair and having to hide it from the rest of the world. All the feelings from the high of being in love and then on the opposite the reality of not being able to share the high. From my own past experience... If you are feeling such a low it might indicate that unconsciously you know something is not right. Try not to ignore that side, as it will catch up in the long run and turn into something much bigger like depression.

Let us know how you are getting on.

I personally don't believe in client/ therapist relationships. It goes against everything I believe in concerning therapy. But everyone sometimes does things they shouldn't do... Including therapist. It just depends how both of you deal with this situation.

[Paraclete]

Certainly teachers shouldn't have sex with students (that's underage and illegal ). But the other examples should be a matter of choice. Nobody else should be able to choose for you.

This is a contradiction. SEX WITH CLIENTS IS ALSO "ILLEGAL" for similar ethical reasons. Plenty of college students are of legal age, but sex with a teacher is still prohibited.

Law and morality are what makes the world a safer place. Wishing to dismiss this universal truth simply to satisfy a personal lust is ... like stating we don't need road markings simply because you want to drive on whichever side of the road YOU choose

This is a serious issue, and people take seriously the advice offered here. Sure, choose for yourself as you wish - but the goal here is to keep everyone as safe as possible.

Originally Posted by Paraclete

This is a contradiction. SEX WITH CLIENTS IS ALSO "ILLEGAL" for similar ethical reasons. Plenty of college students are of legal age, but sex with a teacher is still prohibited.

Law and morality are what makes the world a safer place. Wishing to dismiss this universal truth simply to satisfy a personal lust is ... like stating we don't need road markings simply because you want to drive on whichever side of the road YOU choose

This is a serious issue, and people take seriously the advice offered here. Sure, choose for yourself as you wish - but the goal here is to keep everyone as safe as possible.

There is no need to get angry with me, I'm fully aware that it is a serious issue and the problems that it may possibly lead to thank you, don't think that it has not made my life hell, so please don't patronise me. And it is not a contradiction, where I am from (England) sex with clients is not illegal, it is solely unethical, as far as I am concerned it shouldn't be illegal anywhere, I live in a democracy and I believe in freedom (as long it doesn't involve murder, rape, etc).

I would also also like to stress that I do not advocate the removal of road markings because that can lead to death.

I also never said anything about sex, I said a relationship (I was talking about friendships). I believe in law and and I agree that it makes the world a safer place. But morals are something completely different, when they are dictating people's lives and who they can and cannot have a relationship with that is what I think is wrong. You are entitled to your opinion just as I am entitled to mine.

[Paraclete]

Apologies Emre, none of my comments were aimed at you personally, I was commenting on something you had posted but my illustration was intended toward 'you' in the sense of a general audience. I am certainly not mad at you.

But morals are something completely different, when they are dictating people's lives and who they can and cannot have a relationship with that is what I think is wrong. You are entitled to your opinion just as I am entitled to mine.

I understand why this would seem to be unnecessarily controlling, however there is a reason this rule exists within therapy. It is not arbitrary, the transference and the power differential within the relationship are two very real factors that make this rule necessary. In some countries it is OK for a relationship to ensue after therapy is terminated for two years. This is to acknowledge the fact that yes, some clients are healthy enough to form a genuine romantic bond with the therapist without ill effect, and that once the power differential is no longer there, and transference has had time to subside, it may be safe.

Sometimes it does work, this is true. But unfortunately most often it does not work, and many vulnerable clients have become suicidal as a result of the fall out. This is why those professionals who know and understand the potential consequences and the reasons for them have applied this rule to that particular profession. At the end of the day, no one holds a gun to a therapists head when they decide to enter the profession, it is a choice, as it is a choice to abide by the rules that govern the way that profession is regulated.

^No worries

Originally Posted by Paraclete

many vulnerable clients have become suicidal as a result of the fall out.

Which is exactly how I feel now because I am being refused contact. I am very seriously considering taking my life because of this. It is naive to assume that it only works one way. We should be allowed to choose for ourselves with that knowledge available to us, not blockaded by some invisible person hiding behind their rule book. Mel Gibson once said "you can take our lives, but you'll never take our freedom", unfortunately it is a very real possibility that both of those things could be taken from me.

Originally Posted by Paraclete

At the end of the day, no one holds a gun to a therapists head when they decide to enter the profession, it is a choice, as it is a choice to abide by the rules that govern the way that profession is regulated.

This is exactly the problem. The client has no say in this yet it effects their lives moreso than it does the therapists.

Originally Posted by Paraclete

I understand why this would seem to be unnecessarily controlling, however there is a reason this rule exists within therapy. It is not arbitrary, the transference and the power differential within the relationship are two very real factors that make this rule necessary.

It doesn't make anything necessary. Not every one person feels the same about things. Not every one person is going to end up feeling suicidal. I was bullied throughout my school life by both boys and girls I never had any power, I never had any authority, I was never the most intelligent. I have always accepted that there are other people far more powerful than me. I have accepted that my girlfriends have been more powerful than me. I have had ex-girlfriends manipulate me because of personal information that they have about me. I haven't told my therapist anything different than I have told ex-girlfriends. I didn't become suicidal then and I would bet my mum's life that I wouldn't become suicidal if my therapist did the same to me. What does make me suicidal is having my access blocked to the woman of my dreams.

[nicoleflynn]

emre; I am so sorry you feel this way (suicidal)....why is your t refusing contact? I don't know what the ethics are in the U.K., but for someone (t's) in the U.S. to abandon a client is UNethical.

I fell in love with my t 7 years ago, and am still with him....too long of a story to go into here. Please don't take your life....No one and no thing is worth that. Is there anyone else that can help. Do you have a suicide hotline? Please write back. Love, Nicole

[ur_ladybird]

Originally Posted by nicoleflynn

emre; I am so sorry you feel this way (suicidal)....why is your t refusing contact? I don't know what the ethics are in the U.K., but for someone (t's) in the U.S. to abandon a client is UNethical.

I fell in love with my t 7 years ago, and am still with him....too long of a story to go into here. Please don't take your life....No one and no thing is worth that. Is there anyone else that can help. Do you have a suicide hotline? Please write back. Love, Nicole

Ethics in the uk are very similar to the US.
Emre, I am sorry you are feeling so bad. I have been feeling suicidal myself for a number of months and can only strongly recommend for you to talk to your GP... You are not on your own no matter how bad it gets. Or maybe just pick up the phone and talk to the Samarittens. You can find their phone number on their website. They are extremely good listeners and might be able to help.

[dirtandearth]

Hi everyone,

Thank you all for your thoughts - I did not mean to start a debate, but I appreciate all of your different views. I can only speak for myself and my own situation. I agree very much about the power differential, and the risk I am in as a result.

Em - I am so sorry that you are being cut off from your T - did she cancel your therapy and contact all at once?

Ladybird - thank you for your help. I agree with what you are saying, that I am not having the therapeutic relationship I was before. I have not confided in anyone because I am terrified that if I have a bad spell, they will blame him and some harm will come to him.

Perhaps seeking out therapy elsewhere would be best, but I am too worried about harming him.

[ur_ladybird]

Just to clear something up which seems to have come up in this thread,...

If a therapist and client want to both willingly enter into a romantic relationships there is ways to how to do this ethically. There usually is a certain amount of time in which there should be no contact... (for some reason I have six month in my head but am not sure if this is right).

By the time a therapist is at the stage of no contact there are several things he/she would have considered and applied which are really to detailed to list here. The reason why the focus is on the therapist is because he is in the position of trust and is expected to work in and ethical manner.

The client has as much power as the therapist. Freedom of choice. The problem with that is that a lot of clients are so very vulnerable that the freedom of choice doesn't seem always reachable to them. Hence the focus and responsibility rests on the therapist.

Ultimately it is the freedom of choice on both sides which determins where the relationship leads to.

Originally Posted by nicoleflynn

emre; I am so sorry you feel this way (suicidal)....why is your t refusing contact? I don't know what the ethics are in the U.K., but for someone (t's) in the U.S. to abandon a client is UNethical.

She isn't refusing contact with me. She had to leave the country and return to her homeland of Greece to look after her mum who was suffering from cancer. We had an emotional final session and I wished her all the best and told her that I hope her mum makes a full recovery.

In all the emotion I forgot to ask her if we could stay in contact and I have regretted it ever since. I have tried to get back in touch with her by contacting authorities and nobody is willing to help me due to ethical reasons. We allow ethics and morals to guide our way too much when at times a bit of common sense is all that is needed. It is the bureaucrats who dictate to other people how they should live their lives that are refusing me contact with her.

[unaluna]

Wasn't she a student T, or am I misremembering?

Yes, she was a student T.

[unaluna]

Then the law is in place to protect her vulnerability as a student. The school takes on that responsibility, same as if you get your hair cut at a beauty school. I am glad to see you finally telling us more of your history, I think it means you feel safe with us? accepted by us? I hope you realize how much it means to us that would tell us these things. it is far more manly and attractive than I think you realize! You have excellent insight into your relationship issues. As my t/pdoc told me, now use your smarts to get what you want in life. Use what your t gave you, to get what you want in life. That would be the best gift to her.

Sorry, no she wasn't a student counsellor in the sense that she was a counsellor at a school. I meant that she was studying to become a full counsellor.

Me, attractive? It's really lovely of you to say that. I just wish that even one girl in real life would tell me the same thing.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by emre43

Sorry, no she wasn't a student counsellor in the sense that she was a counsellor at a school. I meant that she was studying to become a full counsellor.

Me, attractive? It's really lovely of you to say that. I just wish that even one girl in real life would tell me the same thing.

That's what I meant, she was not a full-fledged therapist. So some of the things people said here about, she understood the risks when she took her license, etc, don't properly apply? And yes, a man who KNOWS his feelings is not afraid to admit them to himself, builds real confidence in himself, which is all you need to appear attractive. My T is not what many would consider a naturally handsome alpha male type, but he accentuates the positives in his appearance. But he definitely needed help in what he saw as weaknesses, which most women see as strengths. Your EASE in spelling these things out so succinctly, is unique on this site. A woman would feel well-understood by you. As they say, fake it till you make it? There are lots of ways for people to meet. Make use of them.

Originally Posted by hankster

There are lots of ways for people to meet. Make use of them.

That's true. I suppose that I feel that I don't fit in, I'm not like the other guys my age. All they can think about is sex but I want to find an emotional connection with a girl as well, a best friend, a soulmate. I'm worried about telling people this in case I'm seen as some kind of freak or treated like an outcast for being different.