[WanderingBark]

Hi all,

A few weeks ago, when my transference was at an all time high, I asked my T if he could tell me that he loves me, not necessarily romantically. After a day of considering whether or not he would, he decided that he couldn't say he loves me. I felt really rejected. A few sessions later (or before?) he also told me he didn't want me romantically. I was so crushed by hearing this, my romantic feelings went away. Fast forward to my last session, T wants to discuss our relationship. I was resistant and he wanted to know why so I explained that the last time we discussed our relationship it was within the context of my transference and that it was a painful experience.

I'm afraid my feelings for him will come back and I'll be humiliated again. What should I do? If you've gone through something similar, could you share your experience even if it's just waxing and waning transference

I would discuss the relationship, if he seems more open to discussing it now. Perhaps he gave it more thought. Even if he still rejects you, maybe he could enlighten you as to why. But if you really think talking about it could hurt you even more, maybe you should wait? It's kind of your call.

[ramonajones]

I'm going through a pretty intense transference with my therapist right now too so I can empathize. Is there a way you can think of it not as "rejection" but as him just being appropriate and keeping therapeutic boundaries? I don't think he's supposed to share that he has romantic feelings for you even if he actually does.

[WanderingBark]

Originally Posted by ramonajones

I'm going through a pretty intense transference with my therapist right now too so I can empathize. Is there a way you can think of it not as "rejection" but as him just being appropriate and keeping therapeutic boundaries? I don't think he's supposed to share that he has romantic feelings for you even if he actually does.

Thank you for your empathy. I'm trying to view this within the context of keeping boundaries but so often I've felt like boundaries were different or at least blurred. For example, a few months ago when I told him that I found him physically attractive, he told me that he returns those feelings and finds me "extremely physically attractive". Weeks later, we have a rather intense session where he says that I can trust our relationship and that I can use him to figure out what I want.

I guess it's my fault for pushing the subject, but I'm confused by him stating that he doesn't want me romantically and can't say that he loves me. I do really want to believe he is keeping firm boundaries, which maybe he is at the expense of being honest with me, but I doubt it...it feels more personal than that...I don't know if my feelings are justified.

To be fair, he has said that he genuinely cares for me as he cares for all of his patients so he isn't being withholding necessarily. Ugh. I hate that I'm back to thinking about him in this way.

[musinglizzy]

Fairly recently, I was preparing myself to tell my T something that was very hard for me to share. Something I was afraid she'd get upset by (that I was seeing another therapist also). Just as I was about to tell her, I balked. Then I blurted out "do you love me?" She went on with "I care very much for you, blah blah". So I felt rejected and was not ready to tell her yet (but I eventually did, between sessions, via Email). But the very day I asked her that ridiculous question, I got an Email from her later on, stating that she felt "Bullied" by my asking her that. Like i was trying to get her to say something I wanted her to, but she couldn't say. Although....she USED to. In fact, the very last time she said it, she initiated the "I love you." After she told me she wouldn't be using that word anymore. Had she never said "I love you" I'm quite sure I never would have asked that question. But since she did, I just wanted reassurance. Her comment on "feeling bullied" still eats me up. Made me feel very badly, ashamed, and guilty. And rejected, of course.

[WanderingBark]

Originally Posted by musinglizzy

Fairly recently, I was preparing myself to tell my T something that was very hard for me to share. Something I was afraid she'd get upset by (that I was seeing another therapist also). Just as I was about to tell her, I balked. Then I blurted out "do you love me?" She went on with "I care very much for you, blah blah". So I felt rejected and was not ready to tell her yet (but I eventually did, between sessions, via Email). But the very day I asked her that ridiculous question, I got an Email from her later on, stating that she felt "Bullied" by my asking her that. Like i was trying to get her to say something I wanted her to, but she couldn't say. Although....she USED to. In fact, the very last time she said it, she initiated the "I love you." After she told me she wouldn't be using that word anymore. Had she never said "I love you" I'm quite sure I never would have asked that question. But since she did, I just wanted reassurance. Her comment on "feeling bullied" still eats me up. Made me feel very badly, ashamed, and guilty. And rejected, of course.

I totally empathize with feeling rejected by a T's attempt at keeping boundaries. It feels unfair that your T told you she loved you and then told you she wouldn't be using the word 'love' anymore and on top of that to have her hear your need for reassurance as bullying I hope you brought this up with her--it seems like a failure on her part, not your's.

[BudFox]

The more I read about these scenarios of client love/longing, the more I wonder how any of this came to be seen as acceptable. Even if the T has "good boundaries" it can still be a setup for heartbreak and/or confusion, just due to the lavishing of attention and the uber-caring persona of the T. And if the T sends even the slightest signal of enticement, all the more. I imagine some Ts do nothing overt and yet leave a trail of heartbroken devotees and admirers.

I was in the situation of having obsessive and consuming love for my T, such that I had to know her feelings. Had little to do with therapy or "transference". I'm a human being, I was in an intimate relationship with someone, I liked her a lot. It's not natural nor healthy necessarily to declare my undying love for her, and then have her withhold her feelings. It's torture. But once the question is asked, the client is potentially in a no-win situation. If the T says yes I have similar feelings, then how will you think of anything else. If she says no, the client is possibly crushed by the rejection in this context, as the OP was. I was also. Have not been the same since. Was an annihilating experience that threatened my basic sense of self. In either case, the client cant be sure the answer is entirely honest or complete, so there is that too.

Quite frankly, some of what I read in this thread borders on emotional abuse, and would be considered questionable in another context. And seems so often that whatever pain comes of these things, the client is encouraged to accept it as normal and even to take responsibility, owing to their existing issues.

[atisketatasket]

I have to say, if your therapist told you he found you extremely physically attractive, he is at minimum not maintaining boundaries consistently. No good comes to a client from that kind of comment when they have erotic transference.

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

I have to say, if your therapist told you he found you extremely physically attractive, he is at minimum not maintaining boundaries consistently. No good comes to a client from that kind of comment when they have erotic transference.

But might some other T or theorist argue that such a comment helps the client's sense of self, or that the T is just being authentic and divulging what the client has already sensed, or some other rationalization depending on the T's theoretical orientation? Or what if the T finds not revealing this to be too much of a hindrance? Not saying I agree with any of this, just thinking about how dubious and bizarre all of this is. I found it to be a rather perverse mind game. Some of what I read makes me think of the T jerking the strings of a marionette. Now the client is elated, now crushed, now confused.

[WanderingBark]

Originally Posted by BudFox

But might some other T or theorist argue that such a comment helps the client's sense of self, or that the T is just being authentic and divulging what the client has already sensed, or some other rationalization depending on the T's theoretical orientation? Or what if the T finds not revealing this to be too much of a hindrance? Not saying I agree with any of this, just thinking about how dubious and bizarre all of this is. I found it to be a rather perverse mind game. Some of what I read makes me think of the T jerking the strings of a marionette. Now the client is elated, now crushed, now confused.

To be fair, I have felt like a marionette

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by BudFox

But might some other T or theorist argue that such a comment helps the client's sense of self, or that the T is just being authentic and divulging what the client has already sensed, or some other rationalization depending on the T's theoretical orientation? Or what if the T finds not revealing this to be too much of a hindrance? Not saying I agree with any of this, just thinking about how dubious and bizarre all of this is. I found it to be a rather perverse mind game. Some of what I read makes me think of the T jerking the strings of a marionette. Now the client is elated, now crushed, now confused.

I actually believe no therapist should say that, ever. To anyone. Not even if asked directly. Not even to a client with body-image issues. It just isn't right.

And as you say, when the therapist knows there is erotic transference, there is definite marionettery going on.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

I actually believe no therapist should say that, ever. To anyone. Not even if asked directly. Not even to a client with body-image issues. It just isn't right.

And as you say, when the therapist knows there is erotic transference, there is definite marionettery going on.

I agree. What if the client is, say, george clooney, or charo? I think you can see how a t expressing such an opinion makes it all about the t and not about the client.

[nicoleflynn]

I call it the ...come here, go away....game puppet master; happened to me....big time.

[WanderingBark]

Should I try to confront him about this / articulate how I'm feeling? It's really disheartening to me that he is probably doing this....

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by WanderingBark

Should I try to confront him about this / articulate how I'm feeling? It's really disheartening to me that he is probably doing this....

That is a tough spot to be in. If you stand up for yourself and assert your needs and your dignity, you risk triggering his own defenses. But to not do so means giving away your power and acquiescing to authority, which for me anyway is like poison. I would have to bring it up and bring all the sht into the light. Good luck, I'm pulling for you.

[awkwardlyyours]

I'm inclined to also question his competence (actually integrity but I'm trying to be charitable here) -- so, he think it's okay to tell you that he finds you "extremely physically attractive" but somehow saying that he is romantically interested in you or not would be unethical and crossing some saintly professional line that he's drawn? Seriously?

Forget a T who I would think should have way higher / better boundaries and their own stuff sorted out -- I'm not sure I wouldn't find such statements bizarre coming from even any of my random crushes (now that I'm past the hormone rage of my teens / twenties).

[Petra5ed]

I've been in the same spot with the exception of my therapist has never admitted any attraction to me. Plus, I didn't really corner mine even, I wrote an email and only later realized that I was basically asking him if he loved me, but I never explicitly asked. When he told me he would never say he loves me, I felt crushed. It really f-d me up and sent me spiraling down into the abyss.

With mine, I had always suspected he loved me, but now I am less confident. It was like the pageantry of therapy was exposed and it was just an act. I had a total breakdown complete with even having to pull over my car because I was too emotional to drive. Our relationship seems to have drastically changed as well. But... oddly, I got happier. Here and there I wallow in it, but more often I feel like I have been freed from the bondage of obsessing over someone else who doesn't want me.

[WanderingBark]

I'm going to try and bring this up with my T. I might need some help and or time in trying to articulate all of this....ugh I don't even know where to begin here.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by WanderingBark

I'm going to try and bring this up with my T. I might need some help and or time in trying to articulate all of this....ugh I don't even know where to begin here.

I agree that you should talk about it. You could just show him your original post in this thread...since you articulate it pretty well there. E-mail is an option, too, if it's allowed. I've used that with my marriage counselor a few times to share transference-y stuff that I either felt too weird to talk about in person or didn't want to talk about in front of H in session. Sometimes, I just feel the need to get stuff out and have him say that it's OK or know he won't terminate or anything because of how I'm feeling.

And my transference has definitely waxed and waned, and also shifted between paternal and erotic, so it's been a particularly interesting journey...

[Jessica Hazlitt]

Hi. I was just writing about a similar thing here:

http://forums.psychcentral.com/roman...therapy-4.html

It's not easy either way.

[WanderingBark]

Small Update:

Hi everyone, I apologize in advance because I'm just going to use this post to basically outline what I want to say to T. I would appreciate anyone's comments on this even if you've already said it/something before--I need to know if I'm accurately seeing this situation for what it is before I bring it up to T.

Context: During session with T this week, I brought up a revelation I had during the week. This revelation occurred when I was talking to a friend about my experiences in therapy. My friend told me, "sometimes, how these things work, is that you have to be honest with yourself first because if you're not honest with yourself, of course you're not going to be honest with your therapist". I thought 'ah ha! maybe that's why I have issues trusting T and opening up! I'll bring this up in session'. When I told T about what my friend said and how that's what I've been feeling, T said "What is that supposed to mean?". I paused, trying to find the right words to rephrase or clarify and I couldn't because 1) I could hear the slight pain (or maybe confusion or shock?) in his voice when he asked "what's that supposed to mean" and 2) it seemed pretty obvious and clear to me! If I can't be honest with myself how on earth can I face these truths with a stranger i.e. T.

T said, "What I'm in touch with is that you feel like you can't be honest with me and I would like us to address that" So we did. I told him I still have problems trusting because I feel like he'll transfer me because I've broken boundaries. It felt like a pretty intimate convo. We laughed at the extreme events that would cause him to end therapy with me. He gave examples like, "If you showed up and started masturbating in the room, that wouldn't be okay. Or if you showed up to my apartment, we'd have to discuss stopping therapy. Or if you forced yourself on me physically, we'd have to stop". I told him that I understand, but that I still feel like I've broken a boundary and he pushed to know what it was. After telling me about a patient who has a drug addiction and who regularly shows up to sessions high and how T would never leave that patient, I decided to tell him what I had done. I told him I cyber stalked him. He said that he assumed I had because it's not uncommon to look up your T. I proceeded to tell him that I found his Facebook and subsequently found out some info I didn't want to know. He said it's okay, but wanted to know what I had found out. I told him I knew he's engaged. He looked down at his feet and gave a soft smile and under his breath said "yes, I am".

Meat&Potatoes of Post: I told him I felt embarrassed and apologized for coming onto him and if I had known before I wouldn't have been so forward. I told him I was jealous and I felt like I had lost him, which is ridiculous because our relationship is nothing like one you would have with a fiance (aside, I am also engaged). He then said, "True, but I don't have this (our) relationship with my fiance. This relationship and you are special/unique, singular and un-replaceable." I thanked him for saying that although I still felt hallow inside. He followed that with, "We will never have a sexual relationship. However, that doesn't mean we can't have something deep, meaningful, and real. I don't know if you have lingering feelings for me, but we can talk about them and I encourage you to bring them up to be worked on. We can, both of us, bring the depth of feelings we have for each other. I bring my feelings for you into this room and that doesn't make them any less real or meaningful." At this point, my mind is racing and I'm trying to hear what he's saying while also telling myself not to fall back in love with him...

I try to move the conversation back into therapy and not about our relationship. And he pauses to say, "I want to hear about [insert person here], but first I really want to solidify what we just said. I feel like over the past six months you've been trying to make our relationship deeper. You used to do this by bringing our relationship to a near breaking point by pushing boundaries, you even admitted that. But now you're doing it without it being sexualized even if there are still feelings there. This is progress." He continued to repeat himself that we would never have a sexual relationship but that we could have everything else. I said that I understood and feel better about everything (which was a partial lie).

The rest of the day I think about what he meant. I have that light feeling in my heart that I had several months ago when I thought he loved me too. I felt like he just said that he has feelings for me. But then I stopped and realized he probably meant that we can have a meaningful relationship without sex. He even said "some people use sex to escape true intimacy and depth". After all, it wasn't long ago he told me he doesn't want me that way nor does he love me that way

I think back to this thread, wondering if he is manipulating me. It didn't feel that way, but obviously I've been wrong about T. I've been trying to justify to myself that he loves me. I keep thinking 'why bring up examples of me breaking boundaries in a sexual way? I can break boundaries in other ways...does he love me?' Today I'm angry and sad. I'm angry and sad that I'm back here, I'm back in my transference space--the longing, the wishing for things to be different. I realized I do love him but in a deeper less needy way. I'm angry at T--how dare he invite these feelings and say it's okay to have this, whatever this is! Why is he so vague? I want to ask him what feelings he has for me, specifically. I want to say, "Obviously there's countertransference happening here. What flavor is it? Am I your daughter? Your sister? Do I remind you of a friend? A lover...Tell me."

TL;DR: I want to confront T about the feelings we have for each other. Considering confronting T about his countertransference and possibly manipulating me.

[unaluna]