[doriangray1718]

i really don't mean too offend anyone in this theard, but im starting to belive that there just isnt anything after you die, and that there simply is no god. belive it or not this actully really saddens me.
not to offend anyone again, but i never belived in the christian or chatloic god, but i did belive that there was some kind of god. for years i held on too the hope that somebody was always there looking out for us and would would bring justice eventually to those who deserved it. but the world is just in such a ****** state , that im starting to doubt that there is even justice in the world. all the monsters in the world just seem to get away with horrible stuff way too often, and people who really dont deserve it just have horrible things happen too them(when was the last time you heard of a rapist dying of cancer?). why woud a loving god let such terrbile things happen? part of a plan? what kind of horrible plan is that!
i wonder if there is a even a god, if there is, it seems like he really must'nt be listining. i just would like to ask him why. why do you let wars be fought in your name, why would let physcos walk away and give inncont childern lukemia, why would you allow sick people who torture animals to get away with there crimes, why would you let all the bastards too live and the good burn, what's worng with you!
i have cried about this, sometimes i cant even a imgaine a world without justice, i guess that's the only reason why im not an athesit. but i might be. has anyone else flet this? im very sure some ppl must

[SunnyD]

I am not offended. I agree..this world is an awful and dark place often.
I do believe in a loving God who does not make us do what is right. I believe He gives everyone a free choice to live as He would have them live or go their own way.
Hence the lack of fairness or justice in the world and also the beauty of the human spirit.

[sunsetsunrise]

I am also not offended, at all. I completely understand what you are saying. But I will share with you a teeny bit of what I believe. I do not relate to the Judeao Christian God. ( although I love and admire many people who do). I do not relate to a he or she God. I often call God " source". I do not believe that God is going to stop the actions that humans perpetrate on others, themselves, earth, etc.

I do believe that we all have "soul agreements". Each soul may have many soul agreements that can seem so unfair. Is it really unfair? It sure feels like it is. I am sure it is way too complex for me to understand. Do I know God? If I ever did, as a soul, I forget now. Do I understand God? No I do not. I am not even close to being evolved enough to understand a vibration that loving and high. But I do believe that we, as souls, with great wisdom chose wisely. With free will, our circumstances. I know that sounds harsh and brutal. But I say it with kindness and respect.

This is such a complex subject. So I will just say one more thing. I believe that we cannot really reclaim something unless it is lost. So I do not consider losing faith to be a bad thing. I have no religion. But I do have faith in a very loving "source" which is light and love beyond comprehension. A source that never turns on us. A source that is light beyond anything I could imagine. But there was a long period of time when I did not know what I believed. All I knew is what I did not believe.

Sorry, one more thing. When I was in my early 40s, I used to ask for messages. And I would sometimes get them, as I was writing in a meditative state. Always beautiful inspirational messages. I will tell you one.
" songs to the heart
beyond words to the ear.
When the song is remembered,
then all will be clear"
I have since learned that the connection to source is through the heart. Although of course that can be disputed. I also have heard it said that source is a very high vibration / tone. I do not have answers. I have thoughts and feelings. Right or wrong. I do not know. Just sharing some thoughts and feelings.

[SeptemberMorn]

Dorian, you really need to know God before you can even think about understanding Him. It sounds like you don't know Him very well.

He is the true expression of Love. He loves everyone that has ever been, is, or will ever be. The thing is, humans don't understand perfect love. Some of us don't even have a clue about what real human love is.

Like Sunny said, God gave everyone free will. Everyone gets to choose the path they take in life. The criminals take their own path and believe me, there will be justice in the end for them, if not in this world, then in the next.

God allows sickness in this world because of the Fall of Man. It's the consequence we pay. Yet, God takes care of those who love Him and do His will. He may not remove the difficult times, but He carries us through and turns it all into good. I'm a witness to that.

If you want to know more, just PM me and I'll be happy to answer any of your questions.

[vertebrae]

doriangray1718 ...

You wrote:

"But the world is just in such a sh_tty state , that I'm starting to doubt that there is even justice in the world. All the monsters in the world just seem to get away with horrible stuff way too often, and people who really dont deserve it just have horrible things happen too them (when was the last time you heard of a rapist dying of cancer?). Why would a loving god let such terrbile things happen? Part of a plan? What kind of horrible plan is that!"

(BTW - if you don't mind, I corrected the grammar in your quote above)

What you've mentioned with regard to your views upon the world and how God could allow such misfortune and evil to exist in it, has been both a lament and conundrum by which Mankind has pondered and toiled to understand since the dawn of Creation.

It basically breaks down to this:

01. There is God's "Divine" Will

-AND-

02. There is Mankind's "Human" will

God's Will is absolutely PERFECT. Not a stain or error or fault to be found with it. It is all encompassing and without a measure by which Mankind can ascribe a human-inspired understanding of it.

On the other hand, Mankind's "Human" will is imperfect. Since the fall of Man at the point and time of Creation (i.e. "Adam & Eve") and subsequently giving into temptation (partaking in the Tree Of Knowledge by biting the apple offered to them by the serpentine incarnation of Satan), Man has sought out its own desires.

And since Man / Mankind seeks out its own desires and is technically a slave to the flesh (our mortal bodies ... "from dust unto dust"), we seek out sources in which to satisfy the desires of our senses. Be it food, money, drugs, sex, murder, hatred, pleasure, solitude, violence, etc. ... whatever it may be, its inherent value can be warped and distorted by the desires of Man.

For example, let's say that God created an automobile. He designed it so that humans could get from "point A" to "point B" safely and surely. (For what its worth, in this hypothetical scenario, He created everything necessary for vehicles to travel as well ... fuel, roadways, car washes, etc. ... you get the idea. )

OK then, we now have a God designed car. Wow. Now what to do with it? Well we *could* use it as per its intended design (travelling from point A to point B) -OR- being that we are humans with a curiosity for everything, we decide to explore the vehicle's limitations.

So as humans, we take the vehicle to its maximum limits. We speed. We brake hard. We fail to maintain the prerequisite upkeep of the automotive / road worthiness of the car. We trash it. We use and abuse it. We customise it with trinkets and baubles. Everything to make it "ours" and solely "ours".

In doing so, no longer is the vehicle able to respond as designed. Since we failed to maintain it (i.e. regular inspections, replacing the brakes, oil changes, etc.), it no longer is road worthy. It now has become a safety concern. A liability. Not only to those who drive it, but to others who share the roadways as well.

With that being the case, let's say someone drives the car too hard and winds up in an accident. Several people are killed and others are left injured or maimed. The driver walks away unscathed. Not a scratch.

Now since God designed and created this vehicle, would one be correct in casting the blame upon God for causing the automobile accident and the subsequent carnage in its wake? Or would we be correct in pointing to the driver and his misuse / abuse of the vehicle in the history leading up to and involving the crash?

Do you see what I am alluding to?

The misery of the world is brought down upon it by the misuse and abuse of our wills. God gave humans an incredible gift of "Free Will" in that we have the choice of doing either A or B. Good or Bad. Create or Destroy. Conceive or Kill.

God does not want us to all be robot-like automatons marching in step and bowing and offering Him and each other the same expressions time and time again.

He wants us to have the ability to decide ... and in doing so, we are given the opportunity to either accept or reject God's Love and Desire for us and to partake in His Divine Plan.

As Humans imbued with mortal hearts and approximately 3 pounds of cerebral matter contained within our thick skulls, we will never be able to fully conceive of just what the scope of that Divine Plan may indeed be. We may catch glimmers or glimpses of it, but we will never be able to fully grasp it. We have to let it remain as such.


So in essence, God is telling us that we shall never be able to reach the level whereby He alone operates. Not as individuals with a predispostion for sinfulness, vice, revenge, murder, warmongering, greed, avariciousness, exploitation, etc. ... no way.

So you need not blame God for the ills of this world. I know that it is very easy to do, but as part of having faith in God, we have to acknowledge our inability to fathom why things occur as they do. Whatever the case may be, there is a reason for it and a lesson to be learnt (and subsequently applied) from it. Be it war, murder, illness, etc. ... we are called to find meaning in tragedy and misfortune and render kindness and charity for our fellow compatriots who also are travelers on the path known as the "Human Condition" or just simply "life" itself.

Take care,

vertebrae

[doriangray1718]

Originally Posted by vertebrae

doriangray1718 ...

You wrote:

"But the world is just in such a sh_tty state , that I'm starting to doubt that there is even justice in the world. All the monsters in the world just seem to get away with horrible stuff way too often, and people who really dont deserve it just have horrible things happen too them (when was the last time you heard of a rapist dying of cancer?). Why would a loving god let such terrbile things happen? Part of a plan? What kind of horrible plan is that!"

(BTW - if you don't mind, I corrected the grammar in your quote above)

What you've mentioned with regard to your views upon the world and how God could allow such misfortune and evil to exist in it, has been both a lament and conundrum by which Mankind has pondered and toiled to understand since the dawn of Creation.

It basically breaks down to this:

01. There is God's "Divine" Will

-AND-

02. There is Mankind's "Human" will

God's Will is absolutely PERFECT. Not a stain or error or fault to be found with it. It is all encompassing and without a measure by which Mankind can ascribe a human-inspired understanding of it.

On the other hand, Mankind's "Human" will is imperfect. Since the fall of Man at the point and time of Creation (i.e. "Adam & Eve") and subsequently giving into temptation (partaking in the Tree Of Knowledge by biting the apple offered to them by the serpentine incarnation of Satan), Man has sought out its own desires.

And since Man / Mankind seeks out its own desires and is technically a slave to the flesh (our mortal bodies ... "from dust unto dust"), we seek out sources in which to satisfy the desires of our senses. Be it food, money, drugs, sex, murder, hatred, pleasure, solitude, violence, etc. ... whatever it may be, its inherent value can be warped and distorted by the desires of Man.

For example, let's say that God created an automobile. He designed it so that humans could get from "point A" to "point B" safely and surely. (For what its worth, in this hypothetical scenario, He created everything necessary for vehicles to travel as well ... fuel, roadways, car washes, etc. ... you get the idea. )

OK then, we now have a God designed car. Wow. Now what to do with it? Well we *could* use it as per its intended design (travelling from point A to point B) -OR- being that we are humans with a curiosity for everything, we decide to explore the vehicle's limitations.

So as humans, we take the vehicle to its maximum limits. We speed. We brake hard. We fail to maintain the prerequisite upkeep of the automotive / road worthiness of the car. We trash it. We use and abuse it. We customise it with trinkets and baubles. Everything to make it "ours" and solely "ours".

In doing so, no longer is the vehicle able to respond as designed. Since we failed to maintain it (i.e. regular inspections, replacing the brakes, oil changes, etc.), it no longer is road worthy. It now has become a safety concern. A liability. Not only to those who drive it, but to others who share the roadways as well.

With that being the case, let's say someone drives the car too hard and winds up in an accident. Several people are killed and others are left injured or maimed. The driver walks away unscathed. Not a scratch.

Now since God designed and created this vehicle, would one be correct in casting the blame upon God for causing the automobile accident and the subsequent carnage in its wake? Or would we be correct in pointing to the driver and his misuse / abuse of the vehicle in the history leading up to and involving the crash?

Do you see what I am alluding to?

The misery of the world is brought down upon it by the misuse and abuse of our wills. God gave humans an incredible gift of "Free Will" in that we have the choice of doing either A or B. Good or Bad. Create or Destroy. Conceive or Kill.

God does not want us to all be robot-like automatons marching in step and bowing and offering Him and each other the same expressions time and time again.

He wants us to have the ability to decide ... and in doing so, we are given the opportunity to either accept or reject God's Love and Desire for us and to partake in His Divine Plan.

As Humans imbued with mortal hearts and approximately 3 pounds of cerebral matter contained within our thick skulls, we will never be able to fully conceive of just what the scope of that Divine Plan may indeed be. We may catch glimmers or glimpses of it, but we will never be able to fully grasp it. We have to let it remain as such.

So in essence, God is telling us that we shall never be able to reach the level whereby He alone operates. Not as individuals with a predispostion for sinfulness, vice, revenge, murder, warmongering, greed, avariciousness, exploitation, etc. ... no way.

So you need not blame God for the ills of this world. I know that it is very easy to do, but as part of having faith in God, we have to acknowledge our inability to fathom why things occur as they do. Whatever the case may be, there is a reason for it and a lesson to be learnt (and subsequently applied) from it. Be it war, murder, illness, etc. ... we are called to find meaning in tragedy and misfortune and render kindness and charity for our fellow compatriots who also are travelers on the path known as the "Human Condition" or just simply "life" itself.

Take care,

vertebrae

what your saying does make sense ,but i guess my problem is that there is just more bad then good in the world(too me anyway). i would very much love to know that there is more good in the world than bad. i just would like to know that not all humans are reckless drivers. sorry if what im saying is a little off topic of what you wrote

We're going to move forward with a new plan for this forum, for better or worse, because the current state of affairs is simply untenable. We have lost members over hurt and upset caused by this forum and by some members' focus on specific religious doctrine and dogma over the more general spirituality we've always intended here.

Some members have chosen to use this forum as a place to express their point of view, sometimes trying to drown out others'. Other members see this as a soap box to evangelize.

We need to go back to the original mandate of the forum -- that it is about spirituality and not specific religions. Discussion -- even positive discussion -- of specific religions or religious doctrine will not be allowed going forward. It is the specific religious talk that seems to cause the most trouble.

This means no religious talk is allowed -- no specific religious figures, texts, etc. will be permitted here. Please see the note about Social Groups to find where such religious discussion occurs within this community.

DocJohn
http://forums.psychcentral.com/showthread.php?t=63152

Hello, doriangray1718. I have often thought about the concerns you pose. For example, some believe sin requires an element of intent. If so, why would someone have to rescue me from the consequences of a transgression I could not have committed?

Another: If I am incapable of understanding the plan of a deity, why have the trees of countless forests been felled for paper used by those who purport to know to explain to us what we are incapable of understanding?

If there is only one true way, why are there on the order of 1,200 Christian organizations in North America, and over 30,000 in the world?

You have the right to your opinion, doriangray1718. As a member of a Community devoted to support for mental health and relationship issues, I also wonder how sermons on particular religious beliefs are supportive?

[Travelinglady]

Hi, Dorian. I can certainly understand your doubts. Since folks do worry about the content of this forum, then please feel free to contact those of us in Christian forums to talk about it more. Faith is very important--I dare say even more for us who struggle with mental disorders. It certainly keeps me going during my times of depression. Life is tough enough, and then we are saddled with our diagnoses on top of that!

[doriangray1718]

im sorry if the content of this fourm may be upsetting too some people. i clearly stated that i don't mean to offend anyone in this thread. that's also why i tagged it as a trigger thread. just wanted to let people know that. and i really appericate all of the answers on this thread. you all seem very wise about these sort of things. and me being 18, i admit that i half to learn a little more about the universe before making judgements about wheater there is a diety or not. and your vert, we cant blame who ever created to universe for mankind's recklessness. and i do get that point.(is that what you were trying to say?). here's a prayer that i like, someone said it can even work for you if you dont belive in anything

''god grant me the serenity to accept the things i cannot change, the courage to change the things i can, and the wisdom to know the differance.''

[sunsetsunrise]

Originally Posted by TheByzantine

Hello, doriangray1718. I have often thought about the concerns you pose. For example, some believe sin requires an element of intent. If so, why would someone have to rescue me from the consequences of a transgression I could not have committed?

Another: If I am incapable of understanding the plan of a deity, why have the trees of countless forests been felled for paper used by those who purport to know to explain to us what we are incapable of understanding?

If there is only one true way, why are there on the order of 1,200 Christian organizations in North America, and over 30,000 in the world?

You have the right to your opinion, doriangray1718. As a member of a Community devoted to support for mental health and relationship issues, I also wonder how sermons on particular religious beliefs are supportive?

I, for one, am so sorry to post my beliefs here. I honestly did not mean harm. Many months ago, I did get rid of my angel avatar because some people at pc feel that angels are religious. I try my hardest to accomodate pc rules. I will try to stay within the pc guidelines for posting. Again, my apologies.

[SpiritWalker]

Faith without action is dead

[swingbeatnik]

I don't believe in god, the afterlife or cosmic justice (like karma). However, I don't think the awareness of negativity in the world is a very good reason to stop believing in god. Think of it this way... according to most religions we are given free will. This free will is given to all human beings. Humans can be subject to negative thoughts, social disturbances and other things which cause us to commit wrongdoing... if a deity intervened then that would destroy a covenant between said deity and humankind, meaning that the deity chose to break free will temporarily to save a person... see how it doesn't work? Hope you are doing well by the way.

[Christina86]

At this point, this thread is now closed. Please remember that we do have social groups for discussion of faith and religious issues.

Originally Posted by DocJohn

As you may know, we do not allow the discussion of specific religions or religious topics or religious figures in the Spirituality forum. But that doesn't mean religious discussion isn't happening here!!

Instead, such discussions are encourage and occur in a few Social Groups. Social groups are different in that they are run by individual members and are not quite as limited by the community guidelines.

If you are logged in, you may quickly find the list of social groups here:

http://forums.psychcentral.com/group.php

Any member is welcomed to join any social group, unless that group's creator has set a specific membership qualification or limitation.

DocJohn

Have a good day!

Christina86
co-administrator