[kimmydawn]

It's been stated many times now that this forum is not the place debate another's beliefs as they choose to discuss them here.

Faith, spirtuality, and beliefs are a very personal experience that another really can't successfully debate as it's much deeper than argument. It's something we either choose to embrace in some form, or not. No matter the choice, it's a very individual experience that many like to share, but not defend or debate.

Belief is usually defined as a conviction of the truth of a proposition without its verification; therefore a belief is a subjective mental interpretation derived from perceptions, contemplation(reasoning), or communication.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief

Belief is so incredibly unique from person to person that the debate could, and probably would, be endless.

We need to celebrate our beliefs, while respecting others'.

Please respect everyone that posts here. If you don't agree with what's put in a thread, move past it. If a post/thread is against the guidelines for this forum, report it.

Create a thread/post where you can share your experience without referencing another's in a negative tone. It's up to us to gather what we can here, while leaving others to gather individually based on the unique experiences.

Again, please refrain from debate in the thread that another member begins. If you have issue with a member's post and feel that it's negative, or attacking, to another's belief, PM a moderator or admin. Debates have two or more active participants. Don't participate, but PM a mod or admin, so that all can enjoy this forum.

Respect & Peace,

KD

[biplol]

KD, thank you I think this is more clear than water.
Happy holidays everyone!

Thanks Kimmydawn.

The relationship between the subjective and the objective is tricky.

If people stuck to saying / reporting what they believe then that is comparatively subjective.

If people make claims about what the majority of people believe then that is a claim that can be true or false, however, as it depends on surveys of what people state they do believe.

If people make claims about objective truth then that is also a claim that can be true or false as it depends on the way the world turns out.

I agree that if I say 'I like vanilla ice-cream better than chocolate' it is pointless for you to say 'no you don't you like chocolate better'. Though... What if you said 'I like vanilla ice-cream better than chocolate' but whenever you have the choice you consistently take the chocolate over the vanilla? (The point of that little example is that self-report is only one indicator of a persons beliefs and most people grant that beliefs can be unconscious or not available to the person). If I say 'vanilla ice-cream is better than chocolate' then what does that mean? Probably means 'if you survey people then the majority will state that their preference is vanilla'. Might mean that if given the option the majority will pick vanilla over chocolate. Might mean that people will pay more for vanilla than they will for chocolate.

There are useful discussions to be had...

Mostly... I think the problems come of people making objective claims...

Where one... Isn't allowed to provide evidence to the contrary (is that really the case here?)

Or of people asking objective questions and people making objective claims instead of just adding their personal beliefs into the mix...

Oh well.

[PasDeDeux]

Thank you for this KD some people JUST want to *debate* no matter the topic or who they may hurt. Often this gets them banned and blocked from many sites. I find this debating issue is just a means to avoid one's life and own failings.

[FaithisAlive]

PasDeDeux.. I have been thinking of you and hoping you are well... Peace to you this and every day....Faith

[PasDeDeux]

((Faith)) I am on here once in a while....and have kept up with you......WIshing you the best of holidays and a blessed New Year

as kimmy said it takes two to have a debate.
when did debate get to be a nasty word?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate

seems that debate is an important part of democratic structure and making progress on issues (including what one believes) in general... it is linked to the word 'discussion'.

> I find this debating issue is just a means to avoid one's life and own failings.

i'm sorry that that is your experience with debate / discussion :-(
and i'm sorry that your experience seems to be tied up with hurt as well :-(

i find it helpful to discuss / debate some things...
and to disclose other things that are hard...

i know you didn't direct your response to me in particular, but i have a feeling it was directed to me.

one can't debate what someone believes (the fact that they do believe it). one can't debate experiences that someone is having...

but people do insist on talking about the way the world is or about what is the case for other people as well...

are we just supposed to ignore the latter claims?

i don't understand.

[PasDeDeux]

Alex...read and UNDERSTAND KD's WHOLE (entire) post...this is NOT an area for DEBATE.......THE END..

[kimmydawn]

I don't think debate is a bad word at all. I've been told by many a professional that I missing my calling when it comes to that sort of thing. I LOVE a healthy debate...in the right and appropriate setting.

There are good and healthy debates...agreed. It can get to a point, though, that bringing debates into a situation that isn't "prime" for it cause cause others to feel defensive because they feel criticized or other negative feeling. Then it's no longer a debate, but turns into a heated discussion/argument. That's one reason it's specifically discouraged in this forum. Spirituality generally has so much emotion connected that debate isn't usually a successful discussion tool.

As I said, I'd love to meet some here in a different setting someday for healthy "debating". It doesn't mean that I find alot of situations here opportunity for the same. PC is mostly to give/gain support, sharing of knowledge and experiences and, once in a while, a healthy debate. That's the exception though in my experience.

On the topic of debate, I think timing and appropriateness paramount considerations for any success.

KD

Hey. I guess there are a bunch of terms that get all confused. Like how many people think of 'arguing' as involving angry people and hostile voices and name calling and crockery throwing... And many other people think of 'arguing' as formal debate / discussion that is helpful for clarifying what people believe and helpful for clarifying differences.

I think...

I'm used to having discussions where people say what they think. And sometimes there are links of agreement with what has gone before and sometimes there are points of disagreement with what has gone before. But that that is okay. You can disagree with something that someone has said while agreeing with something else that that person has said and still liking them a whole heap.

This isn't the only forum I do that on. I do that on the other forums too. I say what I think on the therapy board and the meds board and the personality disorders board etc etc. Sometimes that involves agreeing with aspects of what someone has said and sometimes it involves disagreeing with aspects of what someone has said.

I always try to be respectful.

I do think, though, that some people are primed to seeing me as hostile and attacking and they interpret my words in that way when I am most certainly not attempting to be hostile or attacking. I'm also not trying to undermine other peoples experiences or beliefs. But I do think that some people are primed to seeing me in that way and when they persistently post that I am off topic or that I am not allowed to post what I just posted or when they accuse me of being hostile and attacking when I am most certainly not trying to be... Well... Over time I guess that does wear me down. I do explain that that isn't what I'm intending. I do clarify my intention. I don't call others names. I don't say that they are off topic (I've only said that once). I don't criticise what they have posted. I don't complain to others about their post. But when people persistently reply to my posts on this forum by jumping to conclusions and attacking me... Then sometimes I do post things that I regret, that is true.

I guess that something that I worry about... Is how this forum is supposed to go...

Because people don't stick to making claims about their experiences or their beliefs they make claims about the world more generally. At times that involves their making claims that could be considered offensive to people of other faiths. If, for example, someone posts that Jesus said 'the only way to the father is through me' then that is not at all supportive to someone of Jewish faith.

I agree that context is important. It wouldn't be appropriate for someone to post the above in response to a thread that was started about the Jewish faith.

But then if I'm posting something about how to make the religious holidays more accessible / accepting to people of a variety of different religious faiths... How supportive is it for people to assume I'm christian bashing or picking on the USA?

I don't understand these boards sometimes...

I do have spiritual moments... But I don't really see a place for them here. Because I can't talk about what I do believe. Even when I'm open to people disagreeing with me (so long as they don't attack me or jump to conclusions about me).

Other people can post what they think...

But when I do that I get jumped all over...

[nothemama8]

Happy Holidays to everyone,
may all weapons be they guns or words be laid down

amen

[(JD)]

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SPIRITUALILTY FORUM This Sanctuary is a place for people of all spiritual beliefs and faiths to offer support and compassion to each other in the form of prayers, meditation, and expressions of spirituality. This forum is for support, not religious debate.

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Merriam-Webster Online defines Spirituality this way:
spirituality
One entry found for spirituality.



Main Entry: spir·i·tu·al·i·ty

Pronunciation: "spir-i-ch&-'wa-l&-tE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
1 : something that in ecclesiastical law belongs to the church or to a cleric as such
2 : CLERGY
3 : sensitivity or attachment to religious values
4 : the quality or state of being spiritual

and Spiritual:
Main Entry: 1spir·i·tu·al

Pronunciation: 'spir-i-ch&-w&l, -i-ch&l, -ich-w&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Late Latin; Anglo-French espirital, spiritual, from Late Latin spiritualis, from Latin, of breathing, of wind, from spiritus
1 : of, relating to, consisting of, or affecting the spirit : INCORPOREAL <spiritual needs>
2 a : of or relating to sacred matters <spiritual songs> b : ecclesiastical rather than lay or temporal <spiritual authority> <lords spiritual>
3 : concerned with religious values
4 : related or joined in spirit <our spiritual home> <his spiritual heir>
5 a : of or relating to supernatural beings or phenomena b : of, relating to, or involving spiritualism : SPIRITUALISTIC
- spir·i·tu·al·ly adverb
- spir·i·tu·al·ness noun

prayer:

Main Entry: 1prayer
Pronunciation: 'prer
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French priere, praiere, preiere, from Medieval Latin precaria, from Latin, feminine of precarius obtained by entreaty, from prec-, prex
1 a (1) : an address (as a petition) to God or a god in word or thought <said a prayer for the success of the voyage> (2) : a set order of words used in praying b : an earnest request or wish
2 : the act or practice of praying to God or a god <kneeling in prayer>
3 : a religious service consisting chiefly of prayers -- often used in plural
4 : something prayed for
5 : a slight chance <haven't got a prayer>

meditation:

Main Entry: med·i·ta·tion
Pronunciation: "me-d&-'tA-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : a discourse intended to express its author's reflections or to guide others in contemplation
2 : the act or process of meditating

expression:

Main Entry: ex·pres·sion
Pronunciation: ik-'spre-sh&n
Function: noun
1 a : an act, process, or instance of representing in a medium (as words) : UTTERANCE <freedom of expression> b (1) : something that manifests, embodies, or symbolizes something else <this gift is an expression of my admiration for you> (2) : a significant word or phrase (3) : a mathematical or logical symbol or a meaningful combination of symbols (4) : the detectable effect of a gene; also : EXPRESSIVITY 1
2 a : a mode, means, or use of significant representation or symbolism; especially : felicitous or vivid indication or depiction of mood or sentiment <read the poem with expression> b (1) : the quality or fact of being expressive (2) : facial aspect or vocal intonation as indicative of feeling
3 : an act or product of pressing out
- ex·pres·sion·al /-'spresh-n&l, -'spre-sh&-n&l/ adjective

support:

Main Entry: 1sup·port
Pronunciation: s&-'port
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French supporter, from Late Latin supportare, from Latin, to transport, from sub- + portare to carry -- more at FARE
1 : to endure bravely or quietly : BEAR
2 a (1) : to promote the interests or cause of (2) : to uphold or defend as valid or right : ADVOCATE <supports fair play> (3) : to argue or vote for <supported the motion to lower taxes> b (1) : ASSIST, HELP <bombers supported the ground troops> (2) : to act with (a star actor) (3) : to bid in bridge so as to show support for c : to provide with substantiation : CORROBORATE <support an alibi>
3 a : to pay the costs of : MAINTAIN <support a family> b : to provide a basis for the existence or subsistence of <the island could probably support three -- A. B. C. Whipple> <support a habit>
4 a : to hold up or serve as a foundation or prop for b : to maintain (a price) at a desired level by purchases or loans; also : to maintain the price of by purchases or loans
5 : to keep from fainting, yielding, or losing courage : COMFORT
6 : to keep (something) going
- sup·port·abil·i·ty /s&-"por-t&-'bi-l&-tE/ noun
- sup·port·able /-'por-t&-b&l/ adjective
- sup·port·ive /-'por-tiv/ adjective
- sup·port·ive·ness /-n&s/ noun
synonyms SUPPORT, UPHOLD, ADVOCATE, BACK, CHAMPION mean to favor actively one that meets opposition. SUPPORT is least explicit about the nature of the assistance given <supports waterfront development>. UPHOLD implies extended support given to something attacked <upheld the legitimacy of the military action>. ADVOCATE stresses urging or pleading <advocated prison reform>. BACK suggests supporting by lending assistance to one failing or falling <refusing to back the call for sanctions>. CHAMPION suggests publicly defending one unjustly attacked or too weak to advocate his or her own cause <championed the rights of children>.

and debate:

Main Entry: 1de·bate
Pronunciation: di-'bAt, dE-
Function: noun
: a contention by words or arguments: as a : the formal discussion of a motion before a deliberative body according to the rules of parliamentary procedure b : a regulated discussion of a proposition between two matched sides

sub category : contention= discord:

Main Entry: 1dis·cord
Pronunciation: 'dis-"kord
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English descorde, discord, from Anglo-French descorde, from Latin discordia, from discord-, discors
1 a : lack of agreement or harmony (as between persons, things, or ideas) b : active quarreling or conflict resulting from discord among persons or factions : STRIFE
2 a (1) : a combination of musical sounds that strikes the ear harshly (2) : DISSONANCE b : a harsh or unpleasant sound
synonyms DISCORD, STRIFE, CONFLICT, CONTENTION, DISSENSION, VARIANCE mean a state or condition marked by a lack of agreement or harmony. DISCORD implies an intrinsic or essential lack of harmony producing quarreling, factiousness, or antagonism <a political party long racked by discord>. STRIFE emphasizes a struggle for superiority rather than the incongruity or incompatibility of the persons or things involved <during his brief reign the empire was never free of civil strife>. CONFLICT usually stresses the action of forces in opposition but in static applications implies an irreconcilability as of duties or desires <the conflict of freedom and responsibility>. CONTENTION applies to strife or competition that shows itself in quarreling, disputing, or controversy <several points of contention about the new zoning law>. DISSENSION implies strife or discord and stresses a division into factions <religious dissension threatened to split the colony>. VARIANCE implies a clash between persons or things owing to a difference in nature, opinion, or interest <cultural variances that work against a national identity>.
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From my POV, though I am not alone in this, the reason this thread even had to be made is because there are those who are posting in this forum who have no belief in anything of God, or a Higher Power, or are so conflicted in what they offer as belief, that they are bringing their arguments with themselves (and imo with a higher power) here to the forum, in the form of contention with those who come to the forum for the support it was intended.

This is a new forum. I know there were members who outwardly suggested that it didn't belong on a mental health support site. Perhaps some others who would rather it not be here, rather than voice it outright and leave it alone, have unconsciously been drawn here trying to stop the support of this nature. IDK.

I would heartedly suggest that we return to where some never began, and that is with the original intent of the forum: SUPPORT. Don't begin a thread where you are not personally seeking support for your own accord, or giving support and encouragment to others in the way of prayer, meditations, or other spiritual expressions (which imo includes verses from texts.) Positing a request for information as though one is seeking support only to find debate as the probable goal is not what this forum is about, according to what I read from administration. It's as if the originator thinks no one can see the intent. And indeed, perhaps no one can truly know the intent of the heart, but the evidence displays itself shortly after the action.

Perhaps if we can succeed at the above, the forum can grow into helping others more fully understand our way of believing. But unless we know that to whom we are posting carries our own belief also, this can't work right now, imo.

The above definitions are quite clear. Spirituality cannot exclude GOD or a higher power, the spirit within which is unseen and unscientific, and the supernatural aspect of that.

Some of the postings in this forum are nothing but contentious, imo, sowing discord where many want to come for solace. This needs to end, imo, NOW. I'm trying to believe that this wasn't a direct intent of the wayward posts to disrupt what should be some of the happiest celebrations of the year. I'm not doing very well with that belief, btw.

The very act of responding to an administrator's warning/explanation with disagreement is unacceptable, imo, as it shows a haughtiness of SPIRIT in an attempt to reconcile misbehavior.

It has been far too easy to be lead astray as discord ensues. Ha! That is what discord does. Let us all determine now if we believe in something other than ourselves or not and make the right decision as to whether this forum is for us, or not. Not all forums are for everyone. This one is the same way. Because it is of a strong force within those who do believe in a higher power that makes the contention here so much stronger, imo. Others who post discordantly in another forum, though also incorrect, do not receive as much negative response as here, imo. The angst that results from non-believers mixing it up with believers who wish to maintain the rules is tremendous, imo.

Anyway, that's how I sense it.

alex, it may only be in the way you say things. you're very articulate and firm in your convictions and that can make someone who is mentally "unsteady" to jump to conclusions. it boils down to this, it's a support forum.

i tried and tried to engage with you and someone else in the thread about self-psychology and was never acknowledged as having put in a word. since i "know" you, it only mildly disturbed me because i know how strong your focus is and i just assumed that what i was trying to say wasn't fitting in with your goal of the thread.

we are all individuals and we all suffer from something or the other that can cause us to be unable to always "click" with one another. i think that you're reading too much into other's reactions and perhaps not thinking enough about your responses.

i see you as a very educated and articulate young woman who has a world of ideas and experiences to share. and i always read your posts. sometimes i don't understand fully what you're talking about, but i always take something away from your writings.

xoxoxo pat

> i tried and tried to engage with you and someone else in the thread about self-psychology and was never acknowledged as having put in a word.

I'm sorry. It wasn't that I had a specific goal or anything. I remember appreciating your response. I am really very sorry about that and I will be more careful in future. Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt. Thanks for telling me about it too. ((((Fayerody))))

I think things are okay. It is just that there is one or two who are determined that things must be done their way...

Take care sweetie.

[(JD)]

Post deleted by _Sky but only asked one question anyway.

No sweetie, I think I've been having trouble with you...

Because you interpret my words in a certain way and then you seem absolutely convinced that your interpretation is the correct interpretation and it doesn't matter what I have to say about what I intended.

Because you interpret DocJohn's words in a certain way and then you seem absolutely convinced (on your interpretation of my post) that my post in in breech of the guidelines. It doesn't matter what anybody says... You seem determined to post to my threads 'off topic!' and little quotes from DocJohn (I guess you think they apply).

And I feel jumped all over.

I really don't want things to be this way. I had a really nice chat to you yesterday via PM and I'm sorry things ended as they did. I also really appreciate your responding to the solstice thread today.

Merry Christmas, Sky.

I hope you have a lovely day.

Take care.

sky, could you take this to the administrators yourself? what is going on? talk about the spirit of today!!!

alex, it's cool. just trying to be supportive and connect.....xoxoxo pat

[kimmydawn]

Thanks, everyone.

I guess my point is this...

Everyone's spiritual (or not) experience is HIGHLY personal and unique because it's based on belief, personal application, experiences, etc. In that, there will rarely be an agreement of everything, all of the time.

Please understand that another's personal belief is their's to own and share (as long as it doesn't attack another's). If you can support and share in like manner, go for it!!! If you can't, go to a thread where you can.

Something that someone has claimed as their's in such a way can be most powerful in an indivual way; most emotional. With that being true, many don't/can't tolerate well an examinmation or debate of what might be considered as one's entire meaning/being/existence.

Share what you can, relate what you can, support what you can, but please refrain from actions that might, in any way, be perceived as a personal attack or picking apart.

Again, if you can't relate in a positive way within a thread, maybe it's best to become involved in one where you can share, care, relate, or give in a positive-feeling way to the majority involved. I know that many times a thread might spark a train of thought that was sparked by the orginal topic and would be a good topic when standing alone, but might be perceived as unsupportive to the original poster (and others responding) in the context of the entire thread. In that case, it can have much more positive results to create a new thread to post the thoughts that another thread gave to you but might not be the most supportive in the same thread; one where others can choose their participation... I think this simple action might side-step many heated discussions/arguments/debates.

Much love,

KD