[Slamjammer]

Are we sure we want an explanation? Do we really want to know why the innocent suffer? I think not. We are far better off with the question than with an answer.

We are bothered by the fact that people suffer undeservedly. As we should be. Any person with an ounce of moral sensitivity is outraged by the injustices of our world.

But what if we found the answer? What if someone came along and gave us a satisfying explanation? What if the mystery were finally solved? What if we asked why, and actually got a meaningful answer?

If this ultimate question were answered, then we would be able to make peace with the suffering of innocents. And that is unthinkable. Worse than innocent people suffering is others watching their suffering unmoved. And that's exactly what would happen if we were to understand why innocents suffer. We would no longer be bothered by their cry, we would no longer feel their pain, because we would understand why it is happening.

Imagine you are in a hospital and hear a woman screaming with pain. Outside her room, her family is standing around chatting, all smiling and happy. You scream at them, "What's wrong with you? Can't you hear how much pain she is in?" They answer, "This is the delivery ward. She is having a baby. Of course we are happy."

When we have an explanation, pain doesn't seem so bad anymore. We can tolerate suffering when we know why it is happening.

And so, if we could make sense of innocent people suffering, if we could rationalize tragedy, then we could live with it. We would be able to hear the cry of sweet children in pain and not be horrified. We would tolerate seeing broken hearts and shattered lives, for we would be able to neatly explain them away. Our question would be answered, and we could move on.

But as long as the pain of innocents remains a burning question, we are bothered by its existence. And as long as we can't explain pain, we must alleviate it. If innocent people suffering does not fit into our worldview, we must eradicate it. Rather than justifying their pain, we need to get rid of it.
So keep asking the question, why do bad things happen to good people. But stop looking for answers. Start formulating a response. Take your righteous anger and turn it into a force for doing good. Redirect your frustration with injustice and unfairness and channel it into a drive to fight injustice and unfairness. Let your outrage propel you into action. When you see innocent people suffering, help them. Combat the pain in the world with goodness. Alleviate suffering wherever you can.

We don't want answers, we don't want explanations, and we don't want closure. We want an end to suffering. And we dare not leave it up to whatever God we believe in to alleviate suffering. He is waiting for us to do it. That's what we are here for.

---------------------------------------------------------

Originally written by Aron Moss, Sydney Austrailia...edited by Slamjammer.

Thanks for this thought-provoking discussion!

[nicoleflynn]

Unfortunately, we cannot eradicate suffering. I understand why adults suffer, but when I read about a baby or small child that is raped; it is beyond human comprehension.

I have taken my outrage and am working hard to make a difference in the world by counseling abused women (some men). My life story won a scholarship and I am a Sophomore (social work) at 67! To quote Elie Weisel: "When good men do nothing, evil prevails."

[SnakeCharmer]

There's a small book called When Bad Things Happen to Good People by Rabbi Harold S. Kushner that touches upon this topic. He wrote it after his innocent young son died.

It may not provide a definitive answer but it does provide comfort and goes a long way to end guilt, shame, blame and anger at God.

I highly recommend it to anyone struggling to rise above suffering and tragedy. It helped me and people dear to me during a time of unbearable suffering.

[Maven]

I read about this topic (and related topics) in a magazine (well, several, really), and a lot of people come to the belief that all this pain and misery exists because there is no God, or God is not merciful and all-loving. I have to admit, I hope neither is true, but both are reasonable answers. I cannot come up with a good reason for things like animals having to not only kill other animals to survive, but to do it what are often torturous, agonizing ways. I don't get why child molesters and rapists are permitted to commit their acts over and over (lest once!). Why do women have to give birth in pain?

It would be good to know there's a wonderful, loving, amazing afterlife, but we don't know that. Why are we not allowed to know that? I know there have been near-death experiences, but we cannot (yet) prove they are more than something that happens in the brain. Again, I'm not saying there's no god, nor that there is. I don't know.

Slamjammer, you say, "But stop looking for answers." No. Can you imagine if people did that? Scientists? Doctors? Individuals? It's important to keep looking. And yes, I agree, if you can help someone in pain, you should do it. (Except maybe if the person did something horrible, but that's all a matter of personal choice.)

[Slamjammer]

Originally Posted by Maven

I read about this topic (and related topics) in a magazine (well, several, really), and a lot of people come to the belief that all this pain and misery exists because there is no God, or God is not merciful and all-loving. I have to admit, I hope neither is true, but both are reasonable answers. I cannot come up with a good reason for things like animals having to not only kill other animals to survive, but to do it what are often torturous, agonizing ways. I don't get why child molesters and rapists are permitted to commit their acts over and over (lest once!). Why do women have to give birth in pain?

It would be good to know there's a wonderful, loving, amazing afterlife, but we don't know that. Why are we not allowed to know that? I know there have been near-death experiences, but we cannot (yet) prove they are more than something that happens in the brain. Again, I'm not saying there's no god, nor that there is. I don't know.

Slamjammer, you say, "But stop looking for answers." No. Can you imagine if people did that? Scientists? Doctors? Individuals? It's important to keep looking. And yes, I agree, if you can help someone in pain, you should do it. (Except maybe if the person did something horrible, but that's all a matter of personal choice.)

Actually, I said "Keep asking the question, but stop looking for answers". If a football team somehow knew the final score in advance, how hard would they play? If you knew your final grade on an exam in advance, why bother to study? Likewise, if we really knew the answer to innocent suffering, how outraged would we be? We would simply look at it as confirmation that nature is working as it should.

We need the outrage. We need to let the anger fuel our desire to stop the suffering, and motivate us to action. Will we ever eliminate suffering 100%? Of course not, but it's important to our own sense of humanity that we try. It's one of those things where the journey is more important than the destination.

[LifeIsCruel]

This is very interesting.......I have always asked this too.

I suffer...from inequality, insecurity, inferior, etc.....see post in Self Esteem

[grandma21964]

Originally Posted by Slamjammer

Are we sure we want an explanation? Do we really want to know why the innocent suffer? I think not. We are far better off with the question than with an answer.

We are bothered by the fact that people suffer undeservedly. As we should be. Any person with an ounce of moral sensitivity is outraged by the injustices of our world.

But what if we found the answer? What if someone came along and gave us a satisfying explanation? What if the mystery were finally solved? What if we asked why, and actually got a meaningful answer?

If this ultimate question were answered, then we would be able to make peace with the suffering of innocents. And that is unthinkable. Worse than innocent people suffering is others watching their suffering unmoved. And that's exactly what would happen if we were to understand why innocents suffer. We would no longer be bothered by their cry, we would no longer feel their pain, because we would understand why it is happening.

Imagine you are in a hospital and hear a woman screaming with pain. Outside her room, her family is standing around chatting, all smiling and happy. You scream at them, "What's wrong with you? Can't you hear how much pain she is in?" They answer, "This is the delivery ward. She is having a baby. Of course we are happy."

When we have an explanation, pain doesn't seem so bad anymore. We can tolerate suffering when we know why it is happening.

And so, if we could make sense of innocent people suffering, if we could rationalize tragedy, then we could live with it. We would be able to hear the cry of sweet children in pain and not be horrified. We would tolerate seeing broken hearts and shattered lives, for we would be able to neatly explain them away. Our question would be answered, and we could move on.

But as long as the pain of innocents remains a burning question, we are bothered by its existence. And as long as we can't explain pain, we must alleviate it. If innocent people suffering does not fit into our worldview, we must eradicate it. Rather than justifying their pain, we need to get rid of it.
So keep asking the question, why do bad things happen to good people. But stop looking for answers. Start formulating a response. Take your righteous anger and turn it into a force for doing good. Redirect your frustration with injustice and unfairness and channel it into a drive to fight injustice and unfairness. Let your outrage propel you into action. When you see innocent people suffering, help them. Combat the pain in the world with goodness. Alleviate suffering wherever you can.

We don't want answers, we don't want explanations, and we don't want closure. We want an end to suffering. And we dare not leave it up to whatever God we believe in to alleviate suffering. He is waiting for us to do it. That's what we are here for.

---------------------------------------------------------

Originally written by Aron Moss, Sydney Austrailia...edited by Slamjammer.

Thought provoking indeed. :0...My question is to all? When did suffering get started? When did it begin and why? Maybe there is an answer.

[pachyderm]

I don't think there is any connection between "innocence" and suffering. That is not the way the world works. Except maybe we try to make it more that way where we can.

[(JD)]

Since this is in the spirituality forum, I'll try to answer (and within guidelines).

To say the innocent suffer undeservedly is a misnomer. We are all guilty. What we should be looking at are the blessings we do receive from a loving God. The suffering is our own fault, our own doing (and yes, even children suffer because of the inherited sinfulness). The ruler of this world desires only bad for those who don't follow him (evil) and does everything he can to keep people from loving God.

To look at our mistakes and suffering for our actions or inactions and blame God is truly a human thing to do, I understand that. It is not God who causes suffering and "bad things" that happen, it is the power of this world that we choose to follow, the desires of the eyes, lust of the flesh, pride of life, and all the shiny things we want for our lives in place of that loving God.

I try to praise God for the blessings He gives daily, the good things He allows us in spite of our badness in comparison. He is a just God and most people do receive what they just deserve. Others who follow God receive more blessings because of that faith. Even though God does not hand out justice all the time but awards grace and mercy other times doesn't make him capricious nor unjust, but merciful and full of grace.

At some point I believe He will straighten the world out again (remember Noah?) and those who have believed in the Loving God will no longer suffer any more nor again. Until then, we're stuck with evil ruling over us and battling those battles.

[happiedasiy]

This was written by a wise person. Life is suffering

1 Life/giving birth is full of suffering.
2 There are reasons / the causation of suffering
3 Knowing the causation and to learn the ways to relieve suffering.
4 When you reach this state you become a service to others.

When I think of the innocent I think of children or people unable to care for themselves. I suffered much as an innocent child yet I was able to turn it into a blessing. I am empathetic, compassionate, and can relate to others on a level another could not.

Much of individual suffering is caused by other human beings.
This happens at a very early age it is found in the family home where disfunction rules.
This happens outside of the home by predators while the community is mute and the child is alienated from any sense of safety. Survival at any cost, no moral direction, children learn that ill deeds reap reward and violence demands respect.
Children watch Adults lie, cheat, kill and steal.
The American Dream of liberty and justice for all is strangled by Corruption/Greed/Violence by Corporations & Government and Religion.
This is a cycle and we are to blame.
Happiedasiy

[Maven]

I still don't get why God created us flawed and created nature to be so cruel and vicious. Yes, it can be loving and beautiful sometimes, but the life cycle is utterly cruel. God can do anything. God didn't have to do it this way.

They serve to prove to those who have so much in life that they actually are the better and stronger person they believe themselves to be.

[glok]

Innocent - adjective: 1. not corrupted or tainted with evil or unpleasant emotion; sinless; pure

I disagree with the premise. How does one rectify a problem without knowing its causation? If the suffering of innocents is to be stopped, we will need to know what has to be changed.

To say there are no innocents because of inherited sin is quite astonishing. Sin begins in the mind. There is an intent to transgress. Some tell us the intend alone is a sin. How could all born after Adam's transgression intend to commit Adam's sin? That we are somehow as guilty as Adam for his transgression is an incredible fiction.

Yes, we all are guilty of disobeying the laws of God (There are many depending upon who you are talking too; or none.). Our accountability is for our acts, not for some dogmatic machination.

I also agree with pachyderm. There may not be a connection between innocence and suffering. People go to bed hungry all the time. Not all of them are innocent.

[Maven]

My sister was arguing similarly, glok. When I pointed out that it's wrong for people to be punished for what their parents or grandparents did, she said that you're part of them, so you're born with the sin in you. I disagree wholeheartedly, and find it unfair to blame people who didn't do what was done, or may not even have been born then.

[(JD)]

Wait. Even if we were to believe we were all created flawless...we would mess it up on our own. Who among us hasn't lied even once (making us a liar) and who hasn't taken something that wasn't ours (making us a thief) and who hasn't spoken meanly to someone etc etc etc? None of us are innocent, even if our parents had been (which they weren't).

The society of life, creation, is not improving and progressing but has been shown to be constantly deteriorating and expanding in that demise. We don't get better in and of our own selves. (For instance people used to live to be 800 years old..and while "modern medicine" has kept us alive a little longer than previous eras (when people died at 50yo, we still don't live to be 800 any more.))

If we were truly innocent all of the world's inhabitants would be doing only good and it would all be compounding into a wonderful world. That ain't happening.

The question assumes that their suffering has to do with whether someone is guilty or innocent. The idea that only those that are guilty experience suffering is where this question misleads us to the wrong answers. Suffering only for punishment is a man made thing, not God-driven.

[nicoleflynn]

But children are helpless; they can do nothing to stop horrific things from happening to them. I believe in GOd, but have questions that no one can answer.

[glok]

Suffering only for punishment is a man made thing, not God-driven.

The ten plagues of Egypt.

[Maven]

I never said we were created flawless. I question why God didn't create us this way. I don't buy the "born in sin" thing, because a baby has done nothing wrong upon its birth. I can buy that we are all sinners in our lives, but I do not accept that anyone should be punished for something their parents did, or someone generations before did. You should be punished for what you do.

And suffering is not only a punishment. Animals in the wild have to kill in order to eat. Why did God make nature this way? There are many cruel ways in nature. There's pain, abandonment, parents murdered (such as a baby rhino I saw on the Net whose mother was killed right in front of her/him and her horn stolen), and other horrible acts. I don't understand why nature was made this way. That's what I'm saying.

Originally Posted by glok

The ten plagues of Egypt.

suffering only for punishment... as I stated, I stand on my remark. I never stated that it is NEVER for punishment other than that.

[Slamjammer]

It seems that everybody really missed this one ;-)

"Why the innocent suffer" isn't about innocence or guilt or sin. It's about US. It's about our REACTION to suffering, not the suffering itself. Don't tell me we can't know how to relieve suffering unless we know the cause. If we get our hands dirty, we'll know where the dirt came from. We simply need to work at it....a little bit at a time. Something every day, no matter how small, will help to change our conscienceness.

Originally Posted by Slamjammer

It seems that everybody really missed this one ;-)

"Why the innocent suffer" isn't about innocence or guilt or sin. It's about US. It's about our REACTION to suffering, not the suffering itself. Don't tell me we can't know how to relieve suffering unless we know the cause. If we get our hands dirty, we'll know where the dirt came from. We simply need to work at it....a little bit at a time. Something every day, no matter how small, will help to change our conscienceness.

But see that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The question being "why the innocent suffer" implies that the question has everything to do with innocence vs guilt. Otherwise the question would be "why people suffer" period.

Second you state it's about our REACTION to this. Well based on your question, the reaction, if to be answered needs to be tied to the fact that the reaction itself has everything to do with the INNOCENCE factor. if the innocence/guilt factor was not at all a factor, thre would be no "why" at all.

If you're talking about the cause of suffering that is void of whether the person is innocent or not, then the question was written wrong and should rather ask "what causes suffering?" That would be more to the point that you make in this last reply. In that you're saying we need to know the cause of the suffering, which indeed is true, if we are to be able to cope or get through the suffering but it seems to me this is an entirely different subject than you originally posted?

[Slamjammer]

Originally Posted by s4ndm4n2006

But see that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The question being "why the innocent suffer" implies that the question has everything to do with innocence vs guilt. Otherwise the question would be "why people suffer" period.

Second you state it's about our REACTION to this. Well based on your question, the reaction, if to be answered needs to be tied to the fact that the reaction itself has everything to do with the INNOCENCE factor. if the innocence/guilt factor was not at all a factor, thre would be no "why" at all.

If you're talking about the cause of suffering that is void of whether the person is innocent or not, then the question was written wrong and should rather ask "what causes suffering?" That would be more to the point that you make in this last reply. In that you're saying we need to know the cause of the suffering, which indeed is true, if we are to be able to cope or get through the suffering but it seems to me this is an entirely different subject than you originally posted?

I would encourage you to go back and re-read the initial post on this thread. I think it will address most of your issues.

[sabby]

I think I understand what the writer is saying. We may not have all the answers as to why suffering takes place. In reality, sometimes it doesn't really matter why, what matters most is for us to do what we can to help alleviate that suffering to the best of our abilities.

Suffering can be on a grand scale or it can be smaller in comparison, suffering is suffering. When we go with our hearts, we can never loose and those who suffer can only be helped, not to mention, we who help are also helped in knowing we have done our best to extend our hand to help someone.

Our help can be a simple yet genuine smile to that harried cashier who is stressing over his/her sick child that day. Our help can be on a grander scale where we physically get involved with charities such as feeding or clothing the poor. Maybe we can donate cash to be used to send needed medicine to an impoverished country. There are thousands of ways we, as one human being can help alleviate suffering.

Doing what we can to help those who are suffering doesn't have to be anything about our spirituality, God or religion or lack there of. It has to do with being a human being with a heart and a willingness to help.