[nowheretorun]

does anyone else ever have this problem? many times when seeking Spirit i am conditioned to seek favors for myself and i wonder if God hears personal requests (for the one) any clearer than requests that involve many?

imho and experience, it does seem to me that God is more likely to listen if my request involves someone besides my own little self...

i hope God is listening now (i know 'he' is) and will guide me to understanding..

Thank you all.. Thank You God..

[I_WMD]

Selfless ,, as opposed to ,, Selfish ?

[nowheretorun]

good point WMD.... yes.. speaking of selflessness...

i hope i am not construed as selfish in making my post...

the practice of humility... yes, that one..

hard to move without being noticed, isnt it?

but to just sincerely and earnestly well wish a thing.. i bet you know what i mean ... too many words and my thoughts get over analyzed by me...

so i just try to keep it simple... i use lower case i for a reason besides being to lazy to use the caps...

and i write this way because it is how my thoughts function.... but there i digressed...

selfless caring is what i'm talkin about friend... i believe you understand...

[KathyM]

NWTR

It could very well be my own brain, but I'm having trouble understanding your question.

I don't see the harm in praying for yourself, if you need something. I'm leery of praying for my wants though. Maybe I've had my ego bruised too often, but sometimes what we want can turn out to be disastrous for us, and possibly others. I try to leave it in God's hands when I start to desire something I want. That way, if I get what I want I can go away thinking it was meant to be. If it turns out good, whoopie for me. If it turns out to be disastrous, I can assume it's a MAJOR lesson for me to learn in life.

Praying for our needs doesn't always come through either. No one survives life, and no one is completely immune to pain and loss. When my needs are taken away, it tells me I need to make adjustments in life. If it causes extreme distress, I consider it a test of my faith to see if I falter - will I lie, steal, cheat, or attempt to destroy others to get what I "need?" I don't ever want to have to explain to God why I turned my back on him in my time of need. I don't ever want to have to explain to God why I believed my life was more important than his other "children."

When praying for my own personal needs, I try to avoid including others. It feels like I'm using them for my own gain. Similar to a kid asking for a toy and using the excuse that other parents allow their children to have the toy. As a mother, it's not a good argument in my book. It also feels similar to a threat to God, as if I'm stomping my foot or being arrogant in thinking I know what is best for all of us.

But enough about me.

If you want to pray to connect with God, I don't see the harm in being "selfish." In fact, I think you should make those prayers all about YOU - the heck with US.

By "separating" your prayers (prayers for yourself vs. prayers for others), I believe this can cause you to focus more on others when praying for them. You won't have any "earmarks" attached to your prayers for others - only your heart and soul. As a result, those you are praying for will receive the whole kit and kaboodle in your prayers.

Is my post to you as confusing as yours was to me?

[nowheretorun]

it is very difficult to find non confusing phraseology KathyM.... simply.. selflessness... as in volunteering, or the love a parent has for the child...

i did not intend to state that praying for self is wrong... please forgive me for the misunderstanding

to give only for the sake of giving and to not seek personal glorification...

as in anonymous philanthropy...

is anyone catching my drift?

[I_WMD]

Yea ,, like doing our alms in silence ,, when others see the good works and we have no desire for recoginition.

There within lies the fruits of our labors.

[KathyM]

Thanks NWTR. Vroooom - that one went right over my head.

Still not really sure what you mean though. I was always taught to help people in need because it's the right thing to do, not just to score points with people, make yourself feel good, or connect with God. You do it from the heart, simply because you care.

I have a friend who is suffering from throat cancer and having trouble getting food down. He likes my husband's homemade soup and is able to get it down, so we keep him stocked up on soup. The only "personal gratification" I get out of it is seeing my friend get some nutrition and have a smile on his face.

I've also been on the receiving end of volunteering. I met with a woman I knew from an online amyloidosis support group after her uncle passed away from the disease. We talked about starting live support group meetings throughout the country. I thought it would be a good idea for patients and their families/caregivers to have the chance to meet face to face and discuss the issues in their lives.

I attended one meeting, but it was physically exhausting. There was plenty of food, but those of us with amyloidosis don't have an appetite and digesting food is very painful. The conversation surrounded around money and advancements made in amyloidosis research, and there was a strict agenda. It may have been fun for those in charge, but the money and advancements didn't really mean anything to us - kinda hard to cheer knowing it had nothing to do with you. It took me several days to recover from that meeting. I felt sorry for those patients who traveled across many states to attend the meeting.

I know the woman meant well, but she started to turn it into a business. The meeting announcements were a little hard to swallow - i.e. "If you want to hug an Amyloidian and enjoy some good food, come to the next meeting!" Excuse me, what the heck is an "amyloidian" - some kind of freak or stuffed animal? Many of us who are suffering from this disease were insulted by that comment.

She was good at collecting donations, and quite a bit of it went to research. However, a large portion also went to providing leadership retreats at luxury hotels and spas for people who facilitated the meetings nationwide. She spoke often of how much fun she was having traveling across the country and sight-seeing with her husband. It made some of us feel like she was using us for her own entertainment (vacations).

She gave herself a title (president) for this volunteer work and used it on her resume in order to compete as "Businesswoman of the Year." The newspaper touted her "selfless" efforts to help people suffering from amyloidosis. Again, we felt used.

She also attached us directly to her business - advertising her company as one who donates to "charity" by helping to bring awareness of amyloidosis. Once again, we felt as though we were being used to promote her family business.

As a result, I believe volunteering should always be selfless without any expectation of personal gratification or gain. Over time, it takes away from those you are helping and begins to make it all about you. I don't think people should be used as stepping stones.

Am I way off base again?

[nowheretorun]

you're on it now KathyM... thanks a lot.. yes.. just selfless caring..

now ive thought about it better.. so many of us come to PC to find our 'self' and here i am talking about being sefless... talk about a dual nature... gee whiz!

but, yeah, i have a friend who was asked by his dying mother to continue her volunteer services when she passed .. at the local senior citizens center where she grew up..

he does it.. 44 yrs old and a partying rock and roller.. knows some shady characters lets say... and there he is volunteering selflessly because mom asked him too...

what a guy... few really know he does it....

i just really admire him..

[nowheretorun]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I_WMD said:
Yea ,, like doing our alms in silence ,, when others see the good works and we have no desire for recoginition.

There within lies the fruits of our labors.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

yeah... like that WMD! thank you

trying to think of more ways i can do more myself... i admire the old asthetic practice of 'prayers for food' .. but, in this society... hard to do that one...

so.. i usually trade a little work too.. then they give me some cash, and on occasion, some food too : )

in return i share what i am given... in the form of buying something somewhere, donating to someone... i attempt to practice selfless giving and to remove my self from my own desires in ways...

i think the way i work has been named a few things, but i really like simplicity and the internal self understanding...

im trying to share here cause its part of what PC is about for me, and i am grateful for all who do share...

and i have prayers for those who remain silent..

[Lenny]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
nowheretorun said:

and i have prayers for those who remain silent..

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Silence can sometimes be the quiet affirmation of work well done...Listening has become highly underrated..

IMHO.

Lenny

[Rapunzel]

We hear about studies that show that praying for others works, as people who were prayed for tend to heal from their physical afflictions measurably faster or with better results than those who are not prayed for. I think that is a good thing.

To be honest, though, there is something about an overabundance of prayer requests for others that doesn't quite feel right to me. I think it's fine to ask for help from or for other people, but I wonder if sometimes it takes the place of going directly to the source. There is nothing wrong with praying for what you need, and for guidance and direction and personal blessings, etc. I would like to share scriptures that show that we are expected to do just that, but scriptures aren't allowed here. I could find a lot more scriptures directing us to pray for our own needs than that say to pray for someone else.

There's nothing wrong with prayer chains, as long as they are not taking the place of your own personal prayers (or the person's who is prayed for). There is something empowering about knowing that you have the responsibility to pray for yourself. I think that has a lot more impact than being prayed for by someone else. And that is part of why I don't often answer the prayer request threads, or request prayers here myself. In my prayers, I do pray for people I care about or know that they are suffering or have a need, but I don't pray for specific outcomes for them, because I'm not the one who knows what they need. I pray that God will answer their prayers according to what He knows they need, and that I might know what He would have me do to help.

That said, there are different kinds of prayers, and at times you might want to say a prayer of selflessness where you only think of others, or a prayer of gratitude that is thanks only and no requests, etc. I just think that none of these should take the place of your own personal prayers, which are a sacred conversation between you and God.

[nowheretorun]

Rapunzel you have never failed to give me good food for thoought...

i for one appreciate the 'no religious talk' mandate here... i would personally prefer to hear some 'fresh' words as i continue my journey... i do love to read good scripture and will share conversations regarding the same with those who can speak without the internal need to press their own views upon me...

i much prefer the teaching method myself... a sort of question answer relationship with my mentor...

several good examples come to mind.. i think one of the things that i love the most about an effective teacher is a seemingly innate ability to know what i need to know and to provide me with that information in a caring and loving, non forceful way....

i have witnessed such things several times over and it is truly one of the most wonderful things in my life which has ever happened to me...

they had appeared to do so 'selflessly' but, i have a phrase that plays in my mind at times....

'he's just working for the Man'

okay... that statement can be analyzed awhile too.. but, it carries the thought 'working for'....

getting myself in deeper and deeper.....

[nowheretorun]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Lenny said:
</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
nowheretorun said:

and i have prayers for those who remain silent..

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Silence can sometimes be the quiet affirmation of work well done...Listening has become highly underrated..

IMHO.

Lenny

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

regards for the Silent

[Lenny]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
nowheretorun said:
regards for the Silent

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

And my sincere gratitude for those that teach me with their questioning..

Lenny

[I_WMD]

Ya know that plaque that some have on their wall???,,,,,, The one that says accept the things we cannot change ...

I LOL everytime I see it .!!!! It proposes that >>>. We can change THINGS ??? .

oooooooooooooook.

[KathyM]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I_WMD said:
Ya know that plaque that some have on their wall???,,,,,, The one that says accept the things we cannot change ...

I LOL everytime I see it .!!!! It proposes that >>>. We can change THINGS ??? .

oooooooooooooook.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Maybe they're talking about underwear.

[biwi]

It is a difficult matter, nowheretorun. I belief that the importance of praying is a way of concentrating of something that is important for you. If your intentions are well perhaps it is good to ask something for yourself. Because when it goes well with you, you can help others better. I admit that my praying is not allways purely altruistic.

lots of love for you and God
biwi

[nowheretorun]

Bless you biwi and same for you in equal or greater measure...

it was never my intention to disrespect praying for self... i believe that it is necessary to do so...

it is extremely difficult to approach the topic of humility however.. once one has, the focus instantly becomes the self and ways in which one has or has not been selfless and one can even quickly corner oneself with the mere mention of words like 'my' or 'mine'...

i think to pray for both self and/or others is fine in Gods' eyes...

i have even prayed for God ... it is my assumption that the burdens we humans place upon him/her is a great deal indeed.. yet, the notion of praying for the health of the Divine One may venture into ridiculousness...

i try to always remember thatthe way i worship may be considered strange or unusual to many, just as my observation of others practice may also seem strange and unusual to myself.. that makes neither 'incorrect'

in any view, i believe wholeheartedly that the mere thought of God opens a channel within the mind to that which is more powerful than any individual...

i do believe that God considers selflessness as a more aesthetically divine act than self fulfillment in my personal practices

[I_WMD]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I_WMD said:
Ya know that plaque that some have on their wall???,,,,,, The one that says accept the things we cannot change ...

I LOL everytime I see it .!!!! It proposes that >>>. We can change THINGS ??? .

oooooooooooooook.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> < .

I hush >>>. As A sapling tree in wind . As We Lift the feet that bind us to the earth,,, and the ,, Never give up attitude ,,,, *pause*

In the mean while .... When You smile or give a tip of the hat ,, A nod of presence,, And know that is a place to care for others ,, I just give the something I have inside,,>>>.

[recluse1]

(((Rapunzel))) I understand what you are saying and where you are coming from. I too believe there are many ways and many types of prayer.
Many times when we find ourselves in question, seeking answers, clarification, or even validation; the best thing i think we can do is ask God ourselves to light the way. I do believe it is up to us to call on Him for our needs. I also agree that is what He "wants" us to do. For me, prayer above all else, is what makes me feel connected in a personal way to Him.
I too, like you, find great comfort in scripture. I love it when I have spoken about a particular difficulty or life situation and someone can offer a scripture or quote that can enlighten me. It means a great deal to me.

blessings to all
recluse1