by being on this forum, you guys are creating "flow" but is it really that ?

turning 50 was a milestone.. for me. The mystery is not so enticing as it once was. The illusion becomes more and more of a void where all my soul desires is to allow for some genuine moments of "flow." One life lesson i have favored but generally never learned is how to "be in the moment"
As the inner voice fades from over-analysis, wisdom finds is'ts place among the seasons. at least, this is my hope.

Life is an allusion? Allusion to what? I always thought art imitated life, but I'm sure it goes the other way around too.

[KUREHA]

If I live to 50 - it's where I plan to end it.

[fishsandwich]

Originally Posted by guru2013

by being on this forum, you guys are creating "flow" but is it really that ?

turning 50 was a milestone.. for me. The mystery is not so enticing as it once was. The illusion becomes more and more of a void where all my soul desires is to allow for some genuine moments of "flow." One life lesson i have favored but generally never learned is how to "be in the moment"
As the inner voice fades from over-analysis, wisdom finds is'ts place among the seasons. at least, this is my hope.

I think you hit the nail on the head, actually - the more you think, the less 'flow' you'll have. The best way to live is to make as little effort as is required to get what you want -- the Chinese have a name for it (because they have a name for everything, natch) but I can't remember it.

Question is, how do you turn off the thinking? ;D

[costello]

Originally Posted by fishsandwich

I think you hit the nail on the head, actually - the more you think, the less 'flow' you'll have. The best way to live is to make as little effort as is required to get what you want -- the Chinese have a name for it (because they have a name for everything, natch) but I can't remember it.

Question is, how do you turn off the thinking? ;D

Good point. That's what my son does. He overthinks everything - in agonizing detail. He's also way too self-conscious. Both of those will really throw a wrench in the flow.

I turned 50 in November, Kureha, and I'm not planning on cashing in my chips any time soon. There are advantages to being a bit older - as well as disadvantages. I can tell you I wouldn't go back to your age for love or money. It's hard being a 20-something.

[fishsandwich]

Originally Posted by costello

It's hard being a 20-something.

My mother likes to tease me that the only good things about being 20-something are the good body and skin.

[fishsandwich]

Also Costello, you could get your son studying chi-gong/tai chi or other internal martial arts. They're all about not analysing and just flowing with everything.

[costello]

Originally Posted by fishsandwich

My mother likes to tease me that the only good things about being 20-something are the good body and skin.

Indeed. That's literally the only advantage to youth IMO. And, honestly, it's not as big of an advantage as 20-somethings imagine it is.

Oh, and energy. I do wish I had more energy.

[fishsandwich]

Originally Posted by costello

Indeed. That's literally the only advantage to youth IMO. And, honestly, it's not as big of an advantage as 20-somethings imagine it is.

Oh, and energy. I do wish I had more energy.

Oh, she means good body as in "free of aches and pains". She's very prosaic about these things.

[costello]

Originally Posted by fishsandwich

Also Costello, you could get your son studying chi-gong/tai chi or other internal martial arts. They're all about not analysing and just flowing with everything.

I got to say that my son hates me trying to organize his cure for him. He's tolerating the diet and fish oil - for now - but I seriously think he'd put his foot down at chi-gong.

Over the last two weeks he was:

1. turned down by a bank to open an account, because of a ChexSystems report.

2. fired from his job.

3. denied an apartment because of an assault charge from 2008 which shouldn't have appeared on his record because he successfully completed a diversion.

He's a bit depressed but doing remarkably well considering the circumstances.

BUT, he has also recently told me he wants to:

1. quit therapy.

2. stop the fish oil.

3. not look for another job.

And last night he said he wants to "give up."

Part of me feels like a bully for making him stay with these things. Why should I force these things on him? He's an adult. (And when I say 'force,' I mean mom-type force - where you're doing it because your mom wants you to but you really wish you didn't have to.)

The other part of me thinks he wouldn't be coping with all this stress so well if he weren't living "clean." You know?

His plan seems to be to sit on the couch, smoking, avoiding contact with other people as much as possible, not working or going to school or even picking up after himself - and thinking all day about all the horrible stuff that's happened to him in his life and how wrong and foul he is.

It just doesn't seem healthy to me.

So do I push? Or not? How hard? In what direction?

One thing's for absolute sure: chi-gong and tai chi are not in his immediate future.

[costello]

Originally Posted by fishsandwich

Oh, she means good body as in "free of aches and pains". She's very prosaic about these things.

I have to admit that I seldom have any physical pain. I think I'm extremely lucky that way. Knock wood!

And, to tell the truth, I've never been a high energy person. But, now, ... <sigh!>

[fishsandwich]

Originally Posted by costello

I got to say that my son hates me trying to organize his cure for him. He's tolerating the diet and fish oil - for now - but I seriously think he'd put his foot down at chi-gong.

Reverse psychology. Slag it off enough, and he'll go do it out of spite?

Originally Posted by costello

Over the last two weeks he was:
. . .
He's a bit depressed but doing remarkably well considering the circumstances.

Yes, that is a very rubbish spell he's had.

Originally Posted by costello

So do I push? Or not? How hard? In what direction?

I ended up resenting (hating?) my mother in the end, because she pushed so hard. Mind, she pushed for the druggings and got herself into debt she expects me to pay off (ha!) to have ECT done against my will, so our situations are somewhat different. That's one hell of a leap from fish oil to forced ECT.

[costello]

Originally Posted by fishsandwich

I ended up resenting (hating?) my mother in the end, because she pushed so hard. Mind, she pushed for the druggings and got herself into debt she expects me to pay off (ha!) to have ECT done against my will, so our situations are somewhat different. That's one hell of a leap from fish oil to forced ECT.

Yeah. People don't like being forced to do stuff they don't want to. I know I wouldn't.

You know, life hurts sometimes. Sometimes it just f'ing hurts, and the only thing you can do is absorb the blow to the best of your ability and move on when the worst has past.

And sometimes you feel sad or tired or whatever for no discernible reason.

I see lots of people on "mental illness" forums who don't seem to get this very basic fact. They have a little slump - or a major body blow - and they're talking about adjusting their meds - so they don't have to experience it I guess.

Where did we get the idea that we had to feel good - or at least not bad - 100% of the time? Anything else is pathology?

My son's doing remarkably well for a guy who's had several blows recently. I'd be in distress too. But he's talking about "giving up"? What does that even look like? Or is he just blowing off steam? I've noticed that I often announce that I can't carry on anymore - right before I pick myself up and dust myself off and carry on. Maybe he's doing the same, and I'm letting it upset me more than necessary.

I guess what I'm saying is that life is sh** sometimes, but my son is handling his most recent round of sh** better that he ever has in the past, and I think it's because of wellness practices he has in place now, and giving up on those practices isn't the right answer.

But I don't want to strong arm him into maintaining the status quo while he's going through this.

But but but but. Argh! What do I do?

I think I'll "give up" - whatever that looks like.

[fishsandwich]

Originally Posted by costello

Yeah. People don't like being forced to do stuff they don't want to. I know I wouldn't.

And yet, we've both become legal types :P I feel like all I will ever do in practice is force people to do things they never want to do.

Originally Posted by costello

I see lots of people on "mental illness" forums who don't seem to get this very basic fact. They have a little slump - or a major body blow - and they're talking about adjusting their meds - so they don't have to experience it I guess.

This is half the reason I am a terrible mental health worker. I'm all for people being in pain some of the time. I would tell people to just put up or shut up about a lot of things.

Originally Posted by costello

Where did we get the idea that we had to feel good - or at least not bad - 100% of the time? Anything else is pathology?

I think this is an American (anglophone?) thing. I've never come across this idea in French or German thought. They're all about being comfortable in melancholia. This idea is much more appealing to me.

Originally Posted by costello

But he's talking about "giving up"? What does that even look like?

I'm hoping this doesn't sound malicious because I don't mean it that way, but it seems like your son doesn't have much to give up in the first place. The people I've always heard talking about giving up are usually people who don't have much to begin with. The elusive part is finding something they can care about.

Originally Posted by costello

I think I'll "give up" - whatever that looks like.

Like I was saying about the chi qong/tai chi - the whole point is giving up completely, and then doing just enough to get what you want.

[costello]

Originally Posted by fishsandwich

I think this is an American (anglophone?) thing.

I think it's a commercial thing. We've had happiness marketed to us so vigorously, we think we can buy it. And we think everyone else already has it. Now that the American market is saturated, we're busy selling the rest of the world on the idea that misery is an illness to be stamped out - rather than a natural part of life which may make us stronger or help guide us toward a better life.

Here's an interesting Madness Radio on the subject: http://www.madnessradio.net/madness-...-ethan-watters

I'm hoping this doesn't sound malicious ...

No, I'm with you. Years ago I was reading a post from a woman diagnosed with depression and taking an antidepressant. She said she had a fulltime job and two small children who were involved in lots of activities she had to drive them to and her sick elderly father had moved in with her and now she had to care for him too. Her question: should she increase the dosage of her med?

Sigh! The woman doesn't have a biological brain disease. She has a messed up life. She can take medication to cope with that if she wishes, but let's not pretend the medication is there to treat a disease.

Like I was saying about the chi qong/tai chi - the whole point is giving up completely, and then doing just enough to get what you want.

My problem is I actually think about things like what does it mean to give up. If you think about it, it sounds really really attractive. I mean I could give up my hated job and my unrealistic expectations of myself.

My son could give up sitting on the couch thinking about some unkind thing some dweeb said to him when he was 15.

Newtus could give up looking for a threat from the air.

Kureha could give up trying to find evidence to prove she's being gang stalked.

We could all just give up. Maybe then we'd have room in our lives for something better.

That's why I always ask my son, "What does giving up look like?"

[fishsandwich]

Originally Posted by costello

I think it's a commercial thing. We've had happiness marketed to us so vigorously, we think we can buy it. And we think everyone else already has it. Now that the American market is saturated, we're busy selling the rest of the world on the idea that misery is an illness to be stamped out - rather than a natural part of life which may make us stronger or help guide us toward a better life.

I can't help but think that the massive profit to be made on antipressants has something to do with this. I find the science that they've only got a placebo effect persuasive; though I also accept that there are some people who are excessively miserable for chemical reasons alone.

[QUOTE=costello;2352742]
Here's an interesting Madness Radio on the subject: http://www.madnessradio.net/madness-...-ethan-watters
Will add it to my ever-growing list nice of things to do after the exams!

Originally Posted by costello

Sigh! The woman doesn't have a biological brain disease. She has a messed up life. She can take medication to cope with that if she wishes, but let's not pretend the medication is there to treat a disease.

How does the song go? I, I have become comfortably numb . . .

Originally Posted by costello

My problem is I actually think about things like what does it mean to give up. If you think about it, it sounds really really attractive. I mean I could give up my hated job and my unrealistic expectations of myself.

I guess there's a bit of a paradox in this, because I think before you can really give up you have to know what you're giving up in favour of.

[costello]

Originally Posted by fishsandwich

How does the song go? I, I have become comfortably numb . . .

I'll have to listen to that when I get back from seeing my mother.

There's a book called Comfortably Numb, you know, on this very subject. And the author was interviewed on - you guessed it! - Madness Radio.

I guess there's a bit of a paradox in this, because I think before you can really give up you have to know what you're giving up in favour of.

I don't know. I think sometimes we cling to what we know, however awful, because we can't see there's anything else. Sometimes you have to let go first. Or maybe that's just me. I'm quite capable of thinking about something almost indefinitely.

[fishsandwich]

Originally Posted by costello

I'll have to listen to that when I get back from seeing my mother.

There's a book called Comfortably Numb, you know, on this very subject. And the author was interviewed on - you guessed it! - Madness Radio.

It's just a Pink Floyd song. All the answers to everything in life are in classic rock, dontchaknow.

Enjoy your fish and chips!!

Hehehe I've been listening to Pink Floyd most of the morning! The Meddle album, one of my favourites...

You guys are bringing up really interesting points. Especially on the idea of prescribed happiness... Which is why I suppose I'm so averse to medicating myself. I've survived this long with my symptoms! Once they finally reach a plateau, I know they'll be manageable. I've had a really rough life & I've been resilient enough to roll with the punches. But people look at the ideals that are being shoved at them through marketting & psychiatry, how we all have to be in perfect mental health & have perfect relationships & perfect families & perfect jobs... And no one is going to have a perfect anything. Everything is a matter of compromising without compromising your well-being in the process. So we all think we're hopelessly damaged over the tiniest little thing. I know that my schizowhatever is one of the things I'm going to have to compromise with. As is my ASPD. And I'm going to have to figure out ways to make those fit in my life without sabotaging it OR myself... Perhaps if we didn't have the idea that everything needs to be perfect to be normal in our heads, we'd all be a lot more content with ourselves.

[fishsandwich]

Originally Posted by Shayatanica

Hehehe I've been listening to Pink Floyd most of the morning! The Meddle album, one of my favourites...

Pink Floyd is amazing. I need to listen to some!!

Originally Posted by Shayatanica

But people look at the ideals that are being shoved at them through marketting & psychiatry, how we all have to be in perfect mental health & have perfect relationships & perfect families & perfect jobs...

I feel like here we need a picture of a white lady in a white linen dress spinning carefree in a field. Possibly with all-natural beauty products and an eco-friendly yoga mat and absolutely no bloating or intestinal discomfort. :eyeroll:
Our society is altogether too obsessed with everything being perfect and clean and easy.

True ****ing story! We're all ****ed up, filthy, & difficult... Right? And we just have to deal with it!! ;D