[newtus]

[newtus]

so is hallucinations caused by overly acute senses? onez that come from thee outside???

[Sometimes psychotic]

I love how they just added drug side effects to the schizophrenia one just like they're part of the disease----TD is the tongue and mouth movements, and the awkward gait is peudo-parkinsons. Not sure about this one.

[newtus]

Originally Posted by Sometimes psychotic

I love how they just added drug side effects to the schizophrenia one just like they're part of the disease----TD is the tongue and mouth movements, and the awkward gait is peudo-parkinsons. Not sure about this one.

yea i saw that too. i thought the same thing

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[faerie_moon_x]

Here is a good link to brain imaging. It's about bipolar but I think brain imaging will be key in diagnostics someday. I know brain images for sz are different than non-sz brains.

Bipolar Brain Imaging | SHARING BIPOLAR

howver:

HOWEVER, IT IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER IT IS STILL EARLY DAYS. THE MEDICAL COMMUNITY DOES NOT ACCEPT BRAIN IMAGING AS RELIABLE FOR DIAGNOSIS OF BIPOLAR, ADHD OR OTHER RELATED CONDITIONS.

I would like this to become practice someday. I would gladly let them scan my brain to find out what's going on.

[newtus]

also im sure people may or may not agree with him. but he does have good pics of spect scans on his site. Dr Amen. my parents were trying to send me to california a few months ago to get a spect scan from his clinic but then they found one in my county who partnered with his clinic but after my parents called and set up and appt they said they dont do them anymore.

Bipolar Disorder and Schizophrenia

[newtus]

also why are bipolar brain scans different from sz if some things can be similar in the two in certain aspects like psychosis?

[faerie_moon_x]

Originally Posted by newtus

also why are bipolar brain scans different from sz if some things can be similar in the two in certain aspects like psychosis?

I bet it has something to do with the mood part of bipolar that sz doesn't have. I bet schizoaffective bipolar brain scan will be similar to both (at least that would make sense.) And, maybe those are just scans of bipolar only without psychosis. Not everyone with bipolar has psychosis.

That's why I'd like to get my brain scanned. Find out what's really happening. I am one of those people who like to know the answer.

And, I've heard of Dr. Amen. Me and my husband read a bunch of his stuff on ADD when he was diagnosed a few years ago. He took the really big long test from him. I didn't know he did stuff with sz and bipolar. Too bad you couldn't get your imaging done.

[newtus]

yes that is true.

i still may idk. i didnt even want to but myy parents begged me practically for a month. it confused me as to why they pushed me to do it. part of me didnt want to bcuz id have to travel to CA. hate planes. then basically they found one in this county. but it was weird cuz they said on their site they do it ...then they called back and said they just stopped doing that stuff cuz people setup appts and then back out bcuz i think they said insurance either doesnt pay or something plus its like 3000 dollars at least.

[faerie_moon_x]

Originally Posted by newtus

yes that is true.

i still may idk. i didnt even want to but myy parents begged me practically for a month. it confused me as to why they pushed me to do it. part of me didnt want to bcuz id have to travel to CA. hate planes. then basically they found one in this county. but it was weird cuz they said on their site they do it ...then they called back and said they just stopped doing that stuff cuz people setup appts and then back out bcuz i think they said insurance either doesnt pay or something plus its like 3000 dollars at least.

It would not surprise me if insurance doesn't cover it. This country is so messed up. One $3000 test could save them countless years in medical expenses of things like medications or hospitalizations if they coudl find the right answers from a scan. Just like that genetic test to see if you have genes for breast cancer is like $3000 but not covered. How much would it save to get a woman tested and treated before the cancer ever develops vs after??? It makes no sense.

[mimi2112]

It really bothers me that there is misinformation like the picture above stating that the Sz has awkward gate etc., when these are side effects of meds and long term permanent effects even when some meds are stopped. The general public thinks that these are symptoms of Sz, itself. Thank you, Sometimes P for pointing this out.

I'm glad that Newtus posted it because it is exactly the BS that the public is fed about MI, even down to the " chemical imbalance" issue. Key words in the info. in that pic.--- "Researchers BELIEVE there is a chemical imbalance" etc. ---it's all speculation and that's what people need to know. It's all speculation behind why MI happens.

Also I need to point out that the brain scans of Sz and Bipolar are small studies of patients having been treated with drugs for a while, but researchers are now saying the meds change the brain and how it appears on imaging. So a LARGE scale long term study of a Sz brain having been medicated versus a Sz brain NOT on drugs versus a "normal" brain needs to be done for comparisons. It makes no sense to take brains that have been strongly medicated and chemically changed, even with a Sz or bipolar Dx, and compare them to "normal" brains.

[mimi2112]

I do hope that someday these diagnostic tools will help. Not everyone who has bipolar or Sz shows positive for that dx on imaging at this point in time.

[faerie_moon_x]

What needs to happen is someone needs to set up a study of people who are at the beginning of their diagnosis. Like a pdoc suspects bipolar or sz, then does a scan. It will take a long time. It should be multiple doctors and states and coutnries invloved. All previously undiagnosed people.

Another thing they should do is scan people with BPD since bipolar and BPD often get misdiagnosed as each other. Just for comparison.

[mimi2112]

Some learning hospitals and mental health clinics are now treating prodromal clients. People who are in early stages, often adolescents are being treated. If the disease process is caught early enough, there may be much more hope for preventing decompensation, and further damage.

A lot of this boils down to money. If imaging was not so expensive, then everyone who presents with early symptoms could get an MRI which would also rule out other disease before slapping on an MI dx.

[mimi2112]

yeah, and that whole popular dx of BPD needs to be looked at and scrutinized. BPD used to be fairly uncommon, and very damning. I can't believe the number of people who now have that dx.

[Sometimes psychotic]

Originally Posted by mimi2112

Some learning hospitals and mental health clinics are now treating prodromal clients. People who are in early stages, often adolescents are being treated. If the disease process is caught early enough, there may be much more hope for preventing decompensation, and further damage.

A lot of this boils down to money. If imaging was not so expensive, then everyone who presents with early symptoms could get an MRI which would also rule out other disease before slapping on an MI dx.

I was supposed to get an MRI, but that's not nearly so cool as fMRI---there was a little glitch where I thought that I was pregnant and filled out the forms that way so I never got the MRI, but I had two head CTs which ruled out the other possibilities anyway. I actually thought an MRI was standard for psychosis---I think it is here, another reason why my pdoc is better than I thought.

[Sometimes psychotic]

Originally Posted by mimi2112

Some learning hospitals and mental health clinics are now treating prodromal clients. People who are in early stages, often adolescents are being treated. If the disease process is caught early enough, there may be much more hope for preventing decompensation, and further damage.

.

Even better is CBT for prevention then you're not just giving people antipsychotics----I think its actually really hard to draw a line when people have psychosis or not, there are actually things called sips or something like that where they decide how many hallucinations it takes to make up psychosis.

[newtus]

yea not everyone with sz has brain abnorms. i think they say only 1/3 does? small percent if not around there.but i strongly believe its caused by meds too. i only say strongly believe becuz even though i know and ive read it theres some docs who dont think so. then again what kind of time does a psychdoc have to look deeper into sz if sz is only 1% in the USA and most people are dealing with other things?

[newtus]

Originally Posted by Sometimes psychotic

I was supposed to get an MRI, but that's not nearly so cool as fMRI---there was a little glitch where I thought that I was pregnant and filled out the forms that way so I never got the MRI, but I had two head CTs which ruled out the other possibilities anyway. I actually thought an MRI was standard for psychosis---I think it is here, another reason why my pdoc is better than I thought.

your lucky.

but yes MY brain scan was a head CT scan. i had forgotten the term i recieved. but fMRI is what they do the SPECT scan with. they the people who i was SUPPOSED to do the scan with say they would test me working on something 30 min or so before the scan. something like a puzzle or perhaps a thinking game. and then they would scan my brain. and then scan it maybe 30 min AGAIN afterwards. something of that sort.

i actually wished i could have gotten it.

[Sometimes psychotic]

Originally Posted by newtus

your lucky.

but yes MY brain scan was a head CT scan. i had forgotten the term i recieved. but fMRI is what they do the SPECT scan with. they the people who i was SUPPOSED to do the scan with say they would test me working on something 30 min or so before the scan. something like a puzzle or perhaps a thinking game. and then they would scan my brain. and then scan it maybe 30 min AGAIN afterwards. something of that sort.

i actually wished i could have gotten it.

Yes I am lucky---I really had no idea how lucky. That SPECT scan sounds cool, too bad you couldn't get it.

[mimi2112]

Originally Posted by newtus

yea not everyone with sz has brain abnorms. i think they say only 1/3 does? small percent if not around there.but i strongly believe its caused by meds too. i only say strongly believe becuz even though i know and ive read it theres some docs who dont think so. then again what kind of time does a psychdoc have to look deeper into sz if sz is only 1% in the USA and most people are dealing with other things?

I believe that the 1% value is very underestimated. I think that there is such a fear of being deemed crazy that a lot of people do not seek help when they have psychotic features. Often, I think people are able to hide symptoms of psychosis, like Faerie said. My own lack of knowledge about what I experienced when young caused me to not tell psychiatrists about my symptoms. When I trace my history, I realize I had psychotic features when I was very young, but I didn't know what it was. I thought I was just depressed. Looking back, it is so obvious to me and should have been to my mom, but my mom was in DENIAL. She figured I was depressed too. The problem with denial is that her sister was dx'd as Sz, but my mom never accepted that. My mom insists that her sister made it up.

Anyway, I think the true number of Sz and psychosis is closer to 7%.

[newtus]

thats great mimi!

i have often thought it was underwstimated too!

havingg met numerous people growingg up and seeing so (if i may say) and also reading the statistics dont quite add up.

i honestly belive its underestimated too. %1 seems rather low...

howd u get 7?

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[Sometimes psychotic]

About 5% of people hear voices but not all who hear voices are sz, there's a functionality component, you have to be at least subtly impaired in some way be it socially, academically or in your work to have sz or psychosis. One of my friends believes that she is psychic(hears voices) and has guides, but goes to work, has friends etc so she's not considered impaired and is just a voice hearer. Of course she's never been to a pdoc either so they might dx her anyway, depending on the pdoc.

[mimi2112]

Originally Posted by Sometimes psychotic

Even better is CBT for prevention then you're not just giving people antipsychotics----I think its actually really hard to draw a line when people have psychosis or not, there are actually things called sips or something like that where they decide how many hallucinations it takes to make up psychosis.

There is a self test that I looked at for prodromal issues. It's the test that some of these learning hospitals and mental health clinics which treat prodromal patients use at intake.

I am not aware of a line being drawn re: psychosis. I was taught that it's really a subjective Dx. All I know is that for me my symptoms are not constant, they vary, etc. So how can there be a test for a certain number of hallucinations occurring, etc.? What is the sips?

I agree that these patients should be treated without Ap's at first.

The fact is that if I'd had an early Dx, and been treated w/ AP's etc. all these years, Id probably be in an institution at this point. I had symptoms begin at about 9 yrs old. I am now 43. That could have been 34 ****ing yrs. of chemical intoxication. My brain could have been turned to mush. I'm glad that I was not Dx'd so young. I would rather have some low grade symptoms of psychosis than be chemically damaged. I have been damaged enough by the meds I did take for years. I was brainwashed into believing that my mind is broken and I'd never recover and I'd have to take meds for the rest of my life. I'm proving them wrong.

[newtus]

yes but aside from that i truly believe its higher than estimated. especially SzA. ive read many places that certain populations within programs or services people are SzA over Sz in some city programs in certain places ETC. that alone i think is a factor. i believe most people with Sz are far from being a textbook case besides even being close to one. with the criteria changed in the new DSM many people who are SzA will goto bipolar 1 or so on and some with SzA will goto Sz. that changes it too.

with that said - how one persons social life for example affects them will affects someone else differently and if a doctor isnt able to see that - that someone can fall off the Sz radar and seem more "mild". weve all had expereinces with doctors not understanding how much things affects us right? so thats prevalent as well. also can be seen the same for acadamecs/work and other diagnosable criteria.