[Sometimes psychotic]

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/neuwrite/...vivHarpers.pdf

This is an article about prodromal schizophrenia it's interesting in its own right but there are a couple of things I found interesting about the narrative. Early in the piece there is evidence that delusions and hallucinations have changed significantly over time from communing with prophets and kings to ufo's radios blogs etc...certainly cameras. To me the changing nature of the delusions over time in some ways suggested that they are in fact not insight into another world or an alternate plane of reality but entirely based from our own thoughts(or at least mine were). This alone is a rather boring conclusion and I've known it for some time but what was interesting is the fact that the underlying basis of psychosis and sz is in fact plagued by the same flaw. Later in the article they point to the fact that thirty years ago people would say sz was due to interactions with their parents then later was the dopamine hypothesis replaced with nmda in the 90's now the kids are describing their conditions in even greater neurological terms but no one agrees just like we all have our own brand of hallucinations etc. Anyway it's unclear to me why the pdocs do not recognize their own beliefs in the biological or psychological underpinnings to be necessarily delusional due to their constant rapid acceptance and then dismissal of the theories over the past thirty years. It is in fact precisely the same scenario...there is a brilliant hypothesis based on the use of some drug but the follow up experiments are never really convincing so alternate theories are proposed later on...they know they don't have the answer but continue to promote the idea of a chemical imbalance as if simply saying we don't know would take all of their power away...Does this false belief provide support for those in crisis or does it ultimately create a sense of betrayal when it will be replaced with yet another theory? I think when the DSM 5 was created there was some desire for connection to biology rather than simply another classification system and yet I would argue that despite my distaste for the dsm it at least provides a foundation for patient care and does not invest in any of these delusional beliefs that a reason has been found. In that sense it is at least not misleading in and of itself, but rather neutral.

[faerie_moon_x]

I think there is a biology side but I don't think they've figured it out. I think it's a genetic thing and maybe "chemical imbalance" isn't the right way of looking at it as the synthetic chemicals don't seem to work every time. I think there are a lot of options for treatment. I think the world of science is getting closer to understanding it. But, I don't think anything is really going to change any time soon.

But, you have to think everyone responds differently to all treatments, not just in psychiatry but all types of meds. For example my cousin who has schizophrenia is in his 60s. I think that he could have worked or gone to school, even if only part time but maybe even full time. But at the time they thought people with schizophrenia could not do anything. They just had to be medicated and watched. He lived with his mom and dad. He was flat but otherwise he responded really well to treatment. He is a really smart guy. But, because of when he was born he only did odd jobs with his dad and now everyone worries what will happen to him once his mom dies. Once my uncle died my cousin kind of fell apart and now he is different, it was a real shock to him. It's heartbreaking because with his medication he was doing great but no one saw that he was a viable person, and now what will he do? He hasn't worked or lived alone in over 40 years.

Now, here's my downside argument. First of all the big pharmacy corporations are in charge. Our country isn't run by government, it's run by corporations. People don't realize this. Look at what happened with healthcare so far. Pandering to big corporations. There's a lot of money in meds. So if chemical treatment in a patient isn't working, oh well, they stay that way. I think even if the answers are found this won't change because the corporate giants will keep it that way.

When my mom died in 1992 her doctor told my dad that there will never be a cure for cancer. This may sound very cynical but I believe it. There won't be a cure. And it's not the fault of the researchers. I think there are passionate people who will always be seeking a cure. But money comes from research and treatments that don't work. There will never be a cure for diabetes. There will never be a cure. There will be things that help more than before, but no cure. And so, there will never be cure for mental illness and there may never be true answers. There will be new treatmetns and those treatments may help a lot of people but not everyone.

So... I do think it's something physcial that causes it, but perhaps a physical + trigger in some cases. I do think meds help some people but not everyone. I do think there are alternative treatments. I think there are answers but we will never have them. I think a lot of doctors are cynical and have God-complex. And, I think the most important thing for all of us is to have a community where we don't feel alienated in the world.

[newtus]

good points faeriemoon

[Sometimes psychotic]

ELI5: How do psychiatrists physically test the chemical imbalance for mental disorders? : explainlikeimfive

[Zaria]

Originally Posted by faerie_moon_x

I think there is a biology side but I don't think they've figured it out. I think it's a genetic thing and maybe "chemical imbalance" isn't the right way of looking at it as the synthetic chemicals don't seem to work every time. I think there are a lot of options for treatment. I think the world of science is getting closer to understanding it. But, I don't think anything is really going to change any time soon.

But, you have to think everyone responds differently to all treatments, not just in psychiatry but all types of meds. For example my cousin who has schizophrenia is in his 60s. I think that he could have worked or gone to school, even if only part time but maybe even full time. But at the time they thought people with schizophrenia could not do anything. They just had to be medicated and watched. He lived with his mom and dad. He was flat but otherwise he responded really well to treatment. He is a really smart guy. But, because of when he was born he only did odd jobs with his dad and now everyone worries what will happen to him once his mom dies. Once my uncle died my cousin kind of fell apart and now he is different, it was a real shock to him. It's heartbreaking because with his medication he was doing great but no one saw that he was a viable person, and now what will he do? He hasn't worked or lived alone in over 40 years.

Now, here's my downside argument. First of all the big pharmacy corporations are in charge. Our country isn't run by government, it's run by corporations. People don't realize this. Look at what happened with healthcare so far. Pandering to big corporations. There's a lot of money in meds. So if chemical treatment in a patient isn't working, oh well, they stay that way. I think even if the answers are found this won't change because the corporate giants will keep it that way.

When my mom died in 1992 her doctor told my dad that there will never be a cure for cancer. This may sound very cynical but I believe it. There won't be a cure. And it's not the fault of the researchers. I think there are passionate people who will always be seeking a cure. But money comes from research and treatments that don't work. There will never be a cure for diabetes. There will never be a cure. There will be things that help more than before, but no cure. And so, there will never be cure for mental illness and there may never be true answers. There will be new treatmetns and those treatments may help a lot of people but not everyone.

So... I do think it's something physcial that causes it, but perhaps a physical + trigger in some cases. I do think meds help some people but not everyone. I do think there are alternative treatments. I think there are answers but we will never have them. I think a lot of doctors are cynical and have God-complex. And, I think the most important thing for all of us is to have a community where we don't feel alienated in the world.

Fairy, unfortunately....I believe you are right. I recently saw some kind of news/doc on this very subject. It described how drug companies choose not to pursue or put money into research for developing "cures" for medications for certain illness's.
It is more in the big drug corp interests to have people dependent on expensive drugs they will need to take for the rest of their lives.
I agree, there is so much more that COULD be done to provide help for those who suffer from mental illness. I hope that changes some day.

Thanks for the article Sometimes! Admittedly I only read half of it With regards to your point about delusions changing over time with culture, I read an interesting book about this a few years ago that you might be interested in. It's called 'From the edge of the couch' by Dr Raj Persaud and I remember it talks about delusions of vampires, demons, werewolves etc.

*Willow*

[costello]

Interesting read, S.p. I read the whole thing. I felt the author did a thorough job and represented the people she interviewed respectfully. That is seldom the case. Maybe it's because these people were never fully psychotic?

I thought it was interesting at the end, where the last woman finally improved after starting on a new anti-psychotic medication. The doctors think the med made the difference, but she doesn't. I see that with my son and me. I see a difference from meds. He seems to thinks that he's somehow managed to get control of his thoughts, and it's just a coincidence that happened when he was on medication.

[newtus]

Originally Posted by costello

I thought it was interesting at the end, where the last woman finally improved after starting on a new anti-psychotic medication. The doctors think the med made the difference, but she doesn't. I see that with my son and me. I see a difference from meds. He seems to thinks that he's somehow managed to get control of his thoughts, and it's just a coincidence that happened when he was on medication.

i think that way too.
i think i managed to control my thoughts. i really dont think the medicine helped in this.

cant that be true?

[faerie_moon_x]

Originally Posted by costello

Interesting read, S.p. I read the whole thing. I felt the author did a thorough job and represented the people she interviewed respectfully. That is seldom the case. Maybe it's because these people were never fully psychotic?

I thought it was interesting at the end, where the last woman finally improved after starting on a new anti-psychotic medication. The doctors think the med made the difference, but she doesn't. I see that with my son and me. I see a difference from meds. He seems to thinks that he's somehow managed to get control of his thoughts, and it's just a coincidence that happened when he was on medication.

I think about this, Costello. It's the same in bipolar where the meds are helping so people decide they are better and stop taking them and then relapse. It happens to a lot of people. That's why I think meds do help some people and there must be physical connection, but at the same time it doesn't help everyone.

[Sometimes psychotic]

Originally Posted by costello

Interesting read, S.p. I read the whole thing. I felt the author did a thorough job and represented the people she interviewed respectfully. That is seldom the case. Maybe it's because these people were never fully psychotic?

I thought it was interesting at the end, where the last woman finally improved after starting on a new anti-psychotic medication. The doctors think the med made the difference, but she doesn't. I see that with my son and me. I see a difference from meds. He seems to thinks that he's somehow managed to get control of his thoughts, and it's just a coincidence that happened when he was on medication.

Yeah apparently she specialzes in mental health writing and has won several awards...she is also writing a book on the same topic based on a clinic in Maine. I might also argue that a lot of how people interpret mental illness is based on how they are taught about it by the doctors...Anna in the story was treated at the FEP clinic at UIC...that is where I received my treatment so I feel a special connection and they do not ever say anything negative really they are very positive about recovery and early treatment...so it tends to influence outlook...

[Sometimes psychotic]

Doctor, Is My Mood Disorder Due to a Chemical Imbalance? | World of Psychology

I may have been wrong about the pdocs starting the chemical imbalance theory....sounds like it was in fact the drug companies at least according to this version...however the anti psychiatry movement clearly attributes this to pdocs as some of them continue to propagate the myth...

[costello]

Originally Posted by newtus

i think that way too.
i think i managed to control my thoughts. i really dont think the medicine helped in this.

cant that be true?

Anything's possible, I guess, but when the thinking clears up right after starting the meds ...

Originally Posted by Sometimes psychotic

Yeah apparently she specialzes in mental health writing and has won several awards...she is also writing a book on the same topic based on a clinic in Maine. I might also argue that a lot of how people interpret mental illness is based on how they are taught about it by the doctors...Anna in the story was treated at the FEP clinic at UIC...that is where I received my treatment so I feel a special connection and they do not ever say anything negative really they are very positive about recovery and early treatment...so it tends to influence outlook...

Delusions are usually indeed related to culture. The reason that government interference pervades now is because of increased secularisism and localisation of power in civic governance. Years ago delusions would have being preoccupied with religious themes. Its a similar story to near death experiences and the differences that exist between different culture and religious sects.

Its ironic but i actually think that bio medical treatments come with the least amount of philosophical baggage. Psycho social therapy and all its permutations come from a mouthpiece who has biases , personal opinions , philosophical approaches to life, dogmatic views , etc.

A biomedical perspective says take this pill and you can believe anything you want.

[costello]

Originally Posted by Sometimes psychotic

Doctor, Is My Mood Disorder Due to a Chemical Imbalance? | World of Psychology

I may have been wrong about the pdocs starting the chemical imbalance theory....sounds like it was in fact the drug companies at least according to this version...however the anti psychiatry movement clearly attributes this to pdocs as some of them continue to propagate the myth...

Yeah. Follow the money.

I find that some people get really angry if you tell them the whole 'chemical imbalance' thing is largely an urban legend.