[Sometimes psychotic]

Ok I'm only part way through this article but the gist is that ancient people may have more routinely heard voices and experienced weird things. This article treats the Bible like a historical record rather than a religious artifact. I know this could be polarizing but what do you think of the idea that some of the miracles of the past were actually hallucinations and the reason we don't have them now is our minds changed as a population.

https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...cience/539871/

that is interesting, SP

i have heard that shamans and other religious leaders in the past have routinely had what would be considered today as "hallucinations" but in some civilizations they are considered wise and good and not sick like they would be here in western civilizations

[Nammu]

So.....the Jim jones of today would have been honored if born a thousand yrs earlier and created a new branch of religion instead of being persecuted causing the death of his followers? How do you explain Scientology? I don't think it is so simple as those with voices were respected in the old world and not now. I think a lot of it depends on the social and environmental times. When the world is or seems unstable then those who have voices offer a certainty. For all the war drums beating currently the world is fairly stable for most of us.

[Sometimes psychotic]

Originally Posted by Kori Anders

that is interesting, SP

i have heard that shamans and other religious leaders in the past have routinely had what would be considered today as "hallucinations" but in some civilizations they are considered wise and good and not sick like they would be here in western civilizations

I think a lot of what causes stigma is the lack of a continuum here where its normal to hear voices---there was an article maybe a year ago where the voices were culturally determined, that is they were more likely to be good like you say outside the US/Europe. I think they even mention in this article about how this particular style of thinking can exist outside the US still.

I can think of another book where someone with sz learned shamanism and it really helped them out and in my own life I thought I was selected to be a shaman and learned a modern version of that. Having context for the voices really helps, and seeing some of them as a force for good instead of something to avoid at all costs.

[Sometimes psychotic]

Originally Posted by Nammu

So.....the Jim jones of today would have been honored if born a thousand yrs earlier and created a new branch of religion instead of being persecuted causing the death of his followers? How do you explain Scientology? I don't think it is so simple as those with voices were respected in the old world and not now. I think a lot of it depends on the social and environmental times. When the world is or seems unstable then those who have voices offer a certainty. For all the war drums beating currently the world is fairly stable for most of us.

Idk I think its more that voices were more common in the past so people could respect them as true when others heard them because of their own experience. I've heard this theory before in terms of connectivity changes in the right and left hemispheres of the brain. Still just hearing voices you know not to trust all of them no matter where they come from so I don't think there would be some sort of acceptance of anything too radical.

[Shoe]

I am only half way through reading the article too but it reminds me of a book I read a couple of years ago.
The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes

I think that delusions naturally reach for mysterious forces to explain occurrences. As time goes on our delusions become more and more detached from reality and only mysterious forces can explain all occurrences. So people need a powerful blanket theory to make sense of all of their detached from reality causes and effects. So god might be the mysterious force or the government. Both work in a coercive manner behind curtains. Also, People from older times really did believe in witches, spirits, and gods. So their minds were more readily to use those heuristics to explain their delusional blanket theory.

As time has progressed with science we have rationalized, using empiricism, to the point where God is such a small part of our lives. We even question whether we are conscious at all, if we can feel pain, or love because we can't objective see it with the microscope. I think science is limited here because science can only see objective, external reality where if we use the introspective method we can't help but live in subjectivity and experience intrinsic properties such as our own consciousness.

When the author talks about how the Western world has closed itself off from collective living and god I think it's because of the industrial revolution, the age of reason, and science. When Nietzsche wrote "God is dead." in... I think it was the Gay Science, he meant that we had killed him, we let him die because of the power of our reason. He saw that as sad because from now on we have nowhere to aim our lives now, and that's where he sets out and tries to create a new meaning of life, one that is aesthetic.

Times back then were probably more stressful and complex so more people might have had psychosis from the complexity of survival then.

My father's delusion slowly shifted to have religious elements in them. He believes he is one of the angels that guard this realm from evil forces. He believes he has a divine gift to foresee bad events before they happen.

Also, the Greek God Dionysus, the god of wine and religious ecstasy is interesting here. There are two Greek words that are telling. Ecstasis is when one exits there body, and enthusiasmos is when they then let the god enter within. This was mostly a woman's religious cult for some reason. The men of the time were more inclined to olympianism which is a patriarchal religion of zeus as ruler. It was cool and calculated, while Dionysian was full of passion. Today there are still churches that practice ecstasis and enthusiasmos when you go to a church and they are speaking in tongues and flailing their arms and passing out as the priests touches them.

The article says:

We tend to think that there is some central part of our brains that acts as a clearinghouse, processing all the outside sensory data that come into our heads via our eyes and ears and so forth and then deciding what to think and how to respond. The problem with this picture is that scientists cannot find anything physical in the brain that seems to act as the clearinghouse. In physiological terms, there is no “I myself”; such an entity seems to be a mental construct, something human beings evolved over millions of years but which has no independent, physical reality.

He's taking a dualistic approach where mind and body are two separate entities. I myself believe it's one substance with two aspects, namely, physical and mental, and then allows for the interaction of the one aspect to move the other aspect. So in this theory maybe everything has a fundamental consciousness, whatever that may be. I'm inclined to believe in this but I'm not really sure.

[Sometimes psychotic]

Originally Posted by Shoe

I am only half way through reading the article too but it reminds me of a book I read a couple of years ago.
The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes

Yes this especially speaks to me---when I was hearing voices I thought they were coming from the right side of my brain which could not speak(ie control my mouth) and this was its way of communicating. Sounds crazy, probably mostly delusional but part of me is fascinated by the idea still...

[Sometimes psychotic]

Originally Posted by Day Tripper

I think that delusions naturally reach for mysterious forces to explain occurrences. As time goes on our delusions become more and more detached from reality and only mysterious forces can explain all occurrences. So people need a powerful blanket theory to make sense of all of their detached from reality causes and effects. So god might be the mysterious force or the government. Both work in a coercive manner behind curtains. Also, People from older times really did believe in witches, spirits, and gods. So their minds were more readily to use those heuristics to explain their delusional blanket theory.

As time has progressed with science we have rationalized, using empiricism, to the point where God is such a small part of our lives. We even question whether we are conscious at all, if we can feel pain, or love because we can't objective see it with the microscope. I think science is limited here because science can only see objective, external reality where if we use the introspective method we can't help but live in subjectivity and experience intrinsic properties such as our own consciousness.

When the author talks about how the Western world has closed itself off from collective living and god I think it's because of the industrial revolution, the age of reason, and science. When Nietzsche wrote "God is dead." in... I think it was the Gay Science, he meant that we had killed him, we let him die because of the power of our reason. He saw that as sad because from now on we have nowhere to aim our lives now, and that's where he sets out and tries to create a new meaning of life, one that is aesthetic.

Times back then were probably more stressful and complex so more people might have had psychosis from the complexity of survival then.

My father's delusion slowly shifted to have religious elements in them. He believes he is one of the angels that guard this realm from evil forces. He believes he has a divine gift to foresee bad events before they happen.

Also, the Greek God Dionysus, the god of wine and religious ecstasy is interesting here. There are two Greek words that are telling. Ecstasis is when one exits there body, and enthusiasmos is when they then let the god enter within. This was mostly a woman's religious cult for some reason. The men of the time were more inclined to olympianism which is a patriarchal religion of zeus as ruler. It was cool and calculated, while Dionysian was full of passion. Today there are still churches that practice ecstasis and enthusiasmos when you go to a church and they are speaking in tongues and flailing their arms and passing out as the priests touches them.

The article says:

He's taking a dualistic approach where mind and body are two separate entities. I myself believe it's one substance with two aspects, namely, physical and mental, and then allows for the interaction of the one aspect to move the other aspect. So in this theory maybe everything has a fundamental consciousness, whatever that may be. I'm inclined to believe in this but I'm not really sure.

Thanks DT I only got a fraction of that but it's always nice to hear what you've got to say

I guess I should have read over it before hitting submit. Oh well :P

[Sometimes psychotic]

Originally Posted by Day Tripper

I guess I should have read over it before hitting submit. Oh well :P

No you're fine its my comprehension of complex material that's lacking....

[newtus]

I dont believe miracles were hallucinations. Not even today.

I believe miracles still happen.