Welcome to Self-Help Ideas and Goal Setting!

Now that's an interesting statement to me! </font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
the unconscious is getting some benefit from the problem behavior

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I'm not sure I've ever looked at anything that way. I see the conscious using the unconscious to support the behavior. hhmmmmm I will keep that in mind and see if anything crops up. OH! Are we discussing possible secondary benefits?

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drclay said:
Describe your problem to us again using the five parts that are involved in almost any problem. When some people do that let's see if the problem becomes more clearly described and see if it might become easier to find ways to deal with the problem. Do we have any volunteers?

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My try at the Five Parts of every Problem....

1.) The problem is that I often stay in the safety of my home for I do not like seeing Young Beautiful Sexy Looking Females.

2.) I cannot deal with the physical response of my mind and body (my personal death wish) when I am in the presence of a Young Beautiful Sexy Female..... for I FEAR that my husband will see her, and that he will want her over me - find her more to his liking than I am.

3.) The skills I may need:

* Redirecting my visual attention else where.
* Locate new founded self-esteem and be able to like Me - as I am, age and all.
* Being secure in knowing that my husband love me and wants me only (this is a hard one - due to past wounds created by my husbands once porn use over me).

4.) My mental process is much the same as it has been for the last 10 years....

I start out by having anxiety over the mere thought of going out in public - over what my husband will see (might lust over) if we go out together, then my emotions turn to FEAR (of not being wanted or loved, being replaced by someone younger, prettier, sexier) - and I know that I will have to deal with the resonations of him/me seeing HER when I get home and I FEAR the out come, for I am occasionally left with feeling as though death would be better than living with this problem.
....... I HATE to CRY while out in PUBLIC!!

I often self talk to myself saying:

* You know that SHE is what he really wants, for he is MAN.
* You are nothing if you are not young & sexy any more..... for all men want SEXY.
* You are getting old therefore You are not any good.... Your Looks Have Failed You as a Woman.

I EXPECT my Husband too:

* Control his lustful eyes and mind while with me (and when out in public by him self)
* To honor the vows he made to me/us 20 years ago..... He agreed to forsake all others for ME.

5.) The unconscious forces that may contribute to my troubles:

* My own father left me (and the entire family) when I was just one years old - for the babysitter, a much Younger and Sexier Female than my mother.
* Between the age of 2 to 12 I was sexually molested by 4 different men - all because they did not control their eyes (porn usage), mind or male desires.
* The only time I really felt wanted was when I was YOUNG and looking SEXY - all the girls wanted to be my friend and all the boys wanted me as their girlfriend, and I often got out of trouble in school because I was one of the PRETTY girls.
* Being raped in unspeakable ways as an adult, and all in the name of male pleasure.
* My husband own 10 year struggle with porn and him wanting what eyes saw over me, and while this is all in the past now (3 yrs now) I know he still struggles for he is male and I am still haunted by the emotional damage left over in me.

* * * * * * * * * * *

Now What? - I know all the answers - I just don't know how to STOP it from still effecting ME?

* * * * * * * * * * *

LoVe,
Rhapsody -

(((((((((rhapsody))))))))))))))...your discription of the five is so close to my heart!!

Things I missed so far:
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How long has it taken you to work out this routine?

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I've had trouble sleeping since the injury. About 5 years ago I really began trying all the different sleep meds, to no avail. A few months ago I stated and T agreed if anyone can do this, I can. And we began to collaborate on all the elements. There are still other elements that I failed to mention: I am hypoglycemic. I need to eat something every 2 hours or so, which is not possible while sleeping. I do need to eat something just before bed. Also, I aspirate sometimes while sleeping. What I eat might play into this. I have just begun to suspect my inhaler which opens airways??? I do know that I had a problem with the esophagus and began taking digestive enzymes (last month) and that diminished the aspiration to less than half of how often it used to happen (even during the day.) Maybe I need more, IDK sigh. Still working on this, as it is a huge problem to get back to sleep after. Perhaps is an unconscious "fear" somehow.

I have been sleeping ok, but wake fatigued still. It may take a few more days to see if I am obtaining restorative sleep and am just filling the empty coffers right now. (Bedtime is by 1 am!)

I do have true physical issues that cause the pain. However, I know all too well the interconnectivity of the mind and body. If the unconscious is relishing the pain, I want to know about it!!!!

Loneliness. Well. I do ok with aloneness. I like times alone. Lonely is what I don't want to be. For the time being, having a relationship would be more stressful and be more frustrating and probably wouldn't last anyway (I'm high maintenance) so it has been tabled. I'm cognitively okay with this, as it's the correct decision. My heart wishes otherwise? But then, that's where the thought stopping enters screeeeeech!

Did I already mention that I do sometimes read? If my eyes will focus well enough, and my depression allows some concentration, I will read a bit. (If I'm too wired, it won't settle me a bit. I read quite fast and have been known to read an entire work in one sitting!)This is another choice/variable to my sleep routine.

ah drclay , you're pulling long posts from me but most here haven't seen me share this much about myself, and perhaps will allow me?

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_Sky said:
long posts from me but most here haven't seen me share this much about myself, and perhaps will allow me?

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Of course Sky! These are "lengthy" issues we are all dealing with.
I have enjoyed reading your journey on your posts here.

Yes, Sky, one of the things I like about "self" help is learning from other people's struggles and examples :-)

Rhapsody:

I tried to respond to your post yesterday but some how I couldn't get to it...maybe the same problem as I just had: I FORGOT to log in!!! A few more stupid mistakes and I'll have it down pat.

Your post yesterday was open, honest, insightful and a good piece of work. It quickly became clear that you are constantly comparing your appearance with other women, fearing they might be more attractive and sexy than you think you are. What a hell of a burden or strain! Not just the competition but the possible thought that hubby might go bannas over a total stranger on the street. We all...well, many of us... have a fleeting thought when we see a beautiful person that "Oh, God, I'd hate to compete with that person." But is a brief thought and quickly we regain our sense of reality--"It couldn't happen...my husband or my wife would not try to seduce her or him...or that good looking wouldn't have much interest in him or her. Then quickly our thoughts go to he/she cares too much for me and our relationship so it would never happen...and so the nightmarish fantasy usually goes away in a few seconds.

You have done something very commendable here: you have experienced a history of hurtful, inconsiderate, self-centered men and a string of terrible sexual experiences and apparently you have not ended up hating all men and sex. Instead, you have a fear of beautiful women. That is amazing and makes me believe you have the strength to reach your commendable goals of feeling secure, loving your husband, and liking yourself.

At the end of Chapter 14 of my book there are some ideas about how to stop bad memories or thoughts. See if there is something helpful there. You didn't say anything about your own sexual adjustment but maybe some information near the end of Chapter 10 would be of interest.

I imagine your post here might have been hard to write. I want you to know that I respect the courage it took to share it.

drclay

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ah drclay , you're pulling long posts from me but most here haven't seen me share this much about myself, and perhaps will allow me?

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Subrina0805:

Sorry I don't have much time but check out Perfectionism and Worry on about page 128 in Chapter 6. Then tell me how it works or ask me questions.

To find skills that might be useful to you look over (skim)Chapter 13 and see if there are any skills there that might serve you well.

drclay

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Bethsway said:
(((((((((rhapsody))))))))))))))...your discription of the five is so close to my heart!!

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Thank YOU.... for it does my heart well to know that I am truly understood and that I am not a nuts for feeling as I do.

And.... I am sorry that YOU too have had the knowledge of the pain that I have been made to endure.

LoVe,
Rhapsody - ((( )))

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drclay said:
At the end of Chapter 14 of my book there are some ideas about how to stop bad memories or thoughts. See if there is something helpful there. You didn't say anything about your own sexual adjustment but maybe some information near the end of Chapter 10 would be of interest.

I imagine your post here might have been hard to write. I want you to know that I respect the courage it took to share it.

drclay

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Dr Clay........... I have read your reply to me and I will respond back with some more thoughts after I have had a chance to read the chapters that you recommended.

I really do want to HEAL from the hell that I have lived in for the last 10 years of my withering life - a dark prison I almost died from, not once but twice and at my own hands.
.................... I do NOT wish to go back there.



LoVe,
Rhapsody -

Rhapsody:

You and several other posters on this thread have mentioned having negative thoughts about themselves and/or bad memories and thoughts about others.

I went back to checkout the last topic in my Chapter 14 about Stopping Bad Memories and Thoughts. I wish scientific finding could be simplier and more clearly stated. I did my best in this very complex area with several conflicting findings. I'd like to help you and others work out some ways of stopping or coping with the disturbing and depressing memories and thoughts.

As I read through the last part of Chapter 14, I came to realize that several of my links were not working well--some don't go anywhere, other links go to my old discontinued Website, still others include URLs based on html whereas this current edition used PDF. I apologize for these errors. I'll get the URLs working as soon as possible. One of the things I value about being online is that skipping to other sections and pulling together different topics so they make good sense. I'll get some help updating the URLs but it will take some time. (How do I put the blushing smiley here?)

Stick with me.
drclay

I am rather late catching up with this new forum, but now I have read every post here, and a little bit of the book. I hope that I am not too late to participate in trying out the five steps. I have been so stuck lately (and probably for my whole life), and I am hoping maybe to find some answers here. Feedback would be appreciated, and I'll do my best to accept the feedback. I hope that I'm finally ready to start changing, and I know that nobody can do it for me, or even give me the answers.

This is a very complex problem, and one that I have been stuck in for a very long time, although I think I am seeing the real problem now for the fist time (with help). What I am trying to deal with is the actual ability to engage in the change process. (1) I somehow discredit or disregard feedback and remain stuck, failing to change. 'Constructive' feedback I use to beat myself up with. Positive comments I get rejected too, even if only in my head. Or just plain ignored. (2) hopeless, despair, self-hate. (3) I need to develop the skills to be able to really look at myself accurately and honestly, and to sort out valid perceptions (my own or someone elses) from invalid ones. I need to be able to respond to those observations and do something with them. I need to accept myself where I am even though I am far from having it all together. I need to be able to give myself credit for the positives even though I would like to do better. Developing self-esteem would be a big part of this. (4) I find a way to argue with anything, telling myself that I don't deserve anything good because I'm not good enough and never can be good enough. I convince myself that I should be something other than what I am, and that I should be able to change who I am pretty much instantly, or that I should have done it ages ago, and also that I should not need help with it. I feel that I am worthless if I can't get everything right on the first try, and if someone has to tell me that I didn't get it, then I must be bad/incompetent/worthless .... And if someone pays me a compliment, I find some way to discount it - I had help, or it was an accident that I did something that turned out okay, or it really isn't good enough, or anybody could do it, .... (5) This is the hard part, but there must be a lot of unconscious stuff going on otherwise this wouldn't be so hard. A lot of it is feeling like it really isn't okay to be okay or to be competent, even though I really want to. This comes from my upbringing, as my parents wanted to keep me as a dependent child forever, and that message came across from them a lot. There is also a lot of fear of failure, and also a belief that the only way to be cared about is to be in need of help, so if I did manage to change the stuff that I need to change, nobody would want to help me anymore, or care about me. I'm also afraid of needing too much help and everyone getting tired of it.

Rap

Rapunzel:

Thanks for such a detailed description of your "thing to change." In short, you feel an overwhelming amount of self-criticism and you believe you are helpless. What is most amazing is that you seemed to give a great explanation of the cause of your problem:

my parents wanted to keep me as a dependent child forever Brilliant! The unconscious part is how your parents' teachings about being helpless became so powerful and unchallenged by you even though you are no longer a child (how old are you?).

So, I'd say your self-help project is to disprove (in behavior, feelings, and thoughts) all this destructive negative crap you were taught by your family (remember they were almost certainly trying to be good parents to help and keep you protected).

A good therapist would ask you to test out the validity of many of your negative ideas, e.g. is it true that you can't change (each day prove you can change what you eat in some way (keep records), reduce the self-hatred thoughts today, count how often you can pleasantly interact with other people, and on and on.

Try thought stopping (in Ch. 11) when am "helpless or awful" thought/feeling comes into your mind. Find out there are other ways to be cared about instead of being weak and in need of help. Test out over and over day by day if people only love you when you a helpless little girl. You may, indeed, need to much help (that is not a putdown; it is encouragement.

There are thousands of ways to prove you are likeable and competent so you don't feel so self-critical, so you will be happier. Try testing some of your negative ideas and put some of your positive traits to work...and then give us feedback about how you did. Many people coming here have had experience learning to feel better about themselves (and still being honest).

Over-protective parents are teaching "you-are-not-OK" and you need help because you can't take care of yourselves. They are unaware of what they are teaching the child.

I hope we hear back from you (my Chapter 14 is about the stuff I'm talking about in this post).

drclay

DrClay,

I appreciate your response and encouragement. I'm struggling to find the balance between disregarding positive feedback and simply being honest about where I am. I have been working hard to figure out what I am doing that keeps me stuck, and why I keep doing that. Getting to this point where I can write out the problem as above is pretty big progress for me. Then I get to this point and get stuck again. My eighth therapist has been on the verge of giving up on me for a few months now. She decided to give me a little bit longer to start doing something, and I'm getting rather desperate. We found another reason why I keep staying stuck here too. If I prove that I can't change, then I don't have to keep feeling bad or guilty for not changing. Except that I do keep feeling bad and feeling guilty.

I have been 29 for around 7 years now (I lost track). Yup, I'm stuck there too. I'm too old to still be blaming my parents for it. Although if you look at my siblings, out of 6 of us I'm considered to be one of the more functional ones. One brother is schizophrenic, one sister will be their perpetual child because she has down syndrome, and another sister is 4 years younger than me and still lives with the parents, never learned to drive, has been working on an associates degree for at least 10 years, etc. I do function at least in some areas of my life. I'm married with 3 kids and in my second year working towards a master's degree in counseling (with a 4.0 GPA). I just need to learn to apply what I can do to the areas of my life where I need it, and I have no good excuses for being so stuck!

I do change some things, just very slowly. For example, a year and a half ago I was afraid to drive by myself across the state or in cities. Now I can do that. I changed my whole life when I decided to go back to school. There are ways of interacting with people that I am working on too, and I think that I am making some progress.

Someone here has suggested that I practice thought-stopping before and I didn't really get around to trying that, so there's another example of how I disregard constructive feedback, but I am going to look that up now and do it this time. I've been actively sabotaging myself with my negative thoughts, and for some reason I have been very reluctant to let go of that.

I'll try testing negative ideas (do you mean like checking out with other people whether they feel the way that I assume they do?) and also try to do something with my positive traits (I wonder if you can give me an example of what you mean there).

Looking through your index, I noticed that chapter 14 is probably something I could get a lot out of, and I have started reading that. I'm getting some mileage out of chapter 2 also.

Thanks again for your suggestions.
Rap

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I'm struggling to find the balance between disregarding positive feedback and simply being honest about where I am.

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HUH? (((RAP))) There is NO balance, imo, and no reason to "disregard positive feedback." You can have both: a handle on where you are AND positive feedback. IMO sometimes you don't feel like you are progressing or working on yourself unless your T bashes you about something

(Forgive me if I overstepped by replying in this thread.)

There's no reason to disregard positive feedback, but that's one of the things that I keep doing. T has become very hesitant about giving me any positive feedback because I have a history of ignoring it at best or setting out to prove how bad I am (through self-destructive behaviors) at worst. Or just rejecting it and arguing with it. So I don't want to do that anymore. I'm being careful about how I respond to feedback because I want to be honest with myself and with other people, but I don't want to respond to positive feedback with "thanks, but no thanks - I don't deserve that." If any of you catch me in that pattern I would appreciate it if you tell me I'm doing it again.

As always, I do appreciate your comments and concern, (((Sky))).

Rap

hmm would that be the same thing (what your T is doing to you) as, "Well since you don't know how to take it, I won't give it to you in the first place."

To me, that ventures on, "You don't deserve encouragement because you never accept it anyway." Which moves you on to, "I must be a terrible person because I can't even accept praise." And might even move to: "No one gives me praise because I'm not deserving of it."

No, in my opinion, a good T continues to give encouragement and praise so that you begin to believe you do deserve it and then can begin to accept it. The T should model the behavior and continue with the effort. If you balk, then T should counter your balk, but continue to reinforce that you ARE deserving and learning how to do this IMO

My first thought was to give you an example of how I have reacted destructively to praise, to illustrate the fact that T has reason for withholding it. Okay, I have to admit that I can see that progression taking place as you said.

Hi Drclay

how r u ? hope that everything fine with you and all. Though I did drop by in this forum and did read some but I skip from one chapter to another really wanna to take this opportunity to Thank You for coming to PC and ur self-help book. I felt that its really giving of you of ur honesty, openess & kindness. Though perhaps its part of ur job but i know that no matter what is our job we also a human and human are not perfect but of-coz strive to be the BEST of the BEST as am striving really hard. Life is definetly not easy a lots of things to overcome Never ending story. But deep inside I know that My home is not of this world I just come passing by and go. And Life is definetly short no matter how much I complain and whining of all the things happened in my life been abused and still being abused so my part I just need to be willing to forgive and let go.But I felt thankful despite of the misery I have to go thru I felt that GOD is faithful like HE always will that u came to pc and give a helping hand thanks alots for helping each and everyone of us here in pc and even outsiders. Can I asked u something is borderline or others personality disorder also genetically???? I suspect that all of my family members have personality disorder and my mom a borderline also. My twins been on meds before and one of them seeing psy. Really have alots of turmoil in my family. But I just need and got to be persevere and fight the good fight and focus Heaven and try my upmost best to be outwardly focus coz when am outwardly focus ( helping others or reflesh others I myself helping myself and got refleshed ) Thanks

(((((((((((((((((DrClay&ALL)))))))))))))))
with love
carol

alittlehoshime:

Thanks for the warm and caring welcome from Malaysia. About 20 years ago we had a young man from Thailand living with us for a year while he was in High School. A very nice fellow.

As you said, it is helpful when some people, like you, can forgive, even though they have been abused and had a very hard life. Several religions believe we live on after death, such as Christianity, Buddhists, Islam and others.

You asked if I thought that Borderline Personality is genetic. I think there is a genetic part of the cause but that doesn't mean that it can't be changed. Those kinds of personality traits can be learned when we are young and passed on to our children, so it looks like inherited.

When I learn more about your life problems, I may suggest you read some things in my book. Is reading a lot in English hard for you to do?

I look forward to us knowing each other better.

drclay

drclay,

thanks a lots for ur reply and yw! you stated that :

"Those kinds of personality traits can be learned when we are young and passed on to our children, so it looks like inherited."

how to stop the "inherit" to my next generation? of coz what is bad i wanna to kick it out and what is good i keep. Or should I say there's no perfect life here on earth I just need to deal with it , overcome, surrender etc etc till the day I die.

about english I would say "borderline" at times that certain words or sentence i still dont understand or find it difficult to put into practice or adjustment and also to be honest I either didnt read the whole thing and started into the chat coz I wanted it "fast". but when the time someone told me that I shouldnt said this or that or do this or that I realized that i've make a mistakes and need to repent. Plz dont kick me out from pc. thanks

carol

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devox:

I'm glad to hear from you again. You are in a demanding situation but you sound, in some ways, like a tough woman...a Marine?? for how long?? Why did you get out?? (the little ones?) What was your specialty?

I'll just go over your five parts and make some observations. (1) You push helpful people away, yet (2) you often feel weak, worthless, incompetent and in need of help? What an impossible bind!

Comment: it is very hard to understand what is happening when these situations are described in very general terms. For example, if the helpful person is a good-looking, overly friendly guy next door, it may not be hard to understand. And, if the helpful person is a friend who always suggests you need some kind of treatment (prescribed meds, yoga, religion...) which doesn't interest you, you naturally avoid advice you don't like.

(3) and (4) Wanting to be capable is very different from demanding perfection from yourself in all ways. Being perfect is again very general which no one can ever accomplish, so what specifically and realistically would you like to learn to do better in the next month...with whom and in what spicific ways? Can you focus on one thing at a time and put the rest on the back burner?

(5) The things you mention here don't seem at all unconscious--in fact they seem on your mind much of the time. What about getting some psychological benefits from your depression and distress? what about hoping people will feel sympathy when you tell about your 2 kids and working, husband gone, lack of psychological help from the military and so on? I'm not saying this things are true of you! You may find the ideas are irritating but if I were you, I'd be a little aware of my emotional needs. Also, in (5), I didn't hear much about anger and unconscious ways you might be expressing pent up anger--any speculation about that?

But the most important thing for you to do, I think, is to find something new way of behaving or feeling and start working on one thing at a time. Any ideas?

drclay

PS: Have you called a Mental Health facility on a base and asked if you could see someone every month or two and talk on the phone with them once or twice a week? I like people who are depressed and prone to SI to have someone available who can help. By the way, how did you "go through" the 3 therapists in town? What is your relationship with them now?

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