random gender question

Gender is a social construct that is waining as society has become more androgynous. However there are parts of the brain that do react differently for males and females and this is often is due to the reproductive processes. Modern pharmaceuticals too have a profound affect on these areas of the brain especially SSRI's. Its interesting that a huge proportion of returned female veterans are living in homelessness and have huge adjustment problems when trying to re-enter a society that does have gender as its values. We really have not thought this one out very well have we?

In regard to many transsexuals (not all) we have to ask, is this delusional paranoia that is mishandled. After all, if a person went to a doctor saying they were Jesus Christ, would they crucify him/her? But, go and say your a member of the opposite sex and "WONDERFUL" the cash registers ring and treatment begins.

Gender needs a good bit of thought and a lot more research although personally, I think we have gone too far already and, too many live in shame and poverty due to acceptance of Liberal Middle Class Values.

Are you asking if the deep belief that one is in the wrong body is delusional paranoia?

Yes I am! Having done a huge amount of research on the subject there are too many inconsistencies to support the general "born in the wrong body" assumption. One can only assume that research stopped in the 1950's, because there has been little objective research done ever since. The current evidence is exceptionally subjective and carried out in the main by transgendered people. Research into early childhood development prior to (the magic age ) 4 years of age would indicate an image realtionship with the main parent as being at the root of the delusional event that often arises in the late 30's to 40's. Males dominate this age group as most of the caring parents were their mothers.

Children that express gender maladaptation in their pre-teen period often do have a maladaptive body brain situation and these are possibly genuine transsexual candidates.

Assuming is a dangerous thing to do. Objective research takes money and the only people who make any real money on transsexuals are surgeons and therapists.

Let me see if I understand this. Children who have some sort of dillusional relationship or event with a primary caretaker, will manifest as transsexual in the late 30's and 40's? So males who feel as though they are in the wrong body feel this way because of a skewed relationship with the mother? Or in the case of females, with their father?

So if they express these feelings in the teen years, they are truely transsexual candidates and therefore deserve to be treated as such?

What of children who express gender identity issues almost from the time they can walk and talk? Or people who were raised in such an environment where things like this were not dicussed and it was not until they were older (say in ther 30's or 40's) that they felt safe enough to even express these feelings?

Much research needs to be done. That goes without saying. some of the research that has been done do conflict with some saying it is social, and some saying it is bilogical.

Due to India as an emerging economy and the social changes taking place there one can often find a lot of research into transsexuality and its treatment. As a patriarchal society Indian women have been subjected to male dominance and the figures indicate that roughly equal males and female try to access TG treatment (who would want to be a childless female in the Indian culture) where as in western cultures and places like Iran (where it is an escape from being shot for homosexuality) it is predominantly a male problem. This would indicate other factors present other than birth incongruities, which as with other maladies would be roughly equal in both sexes. Early-childhood experiences are indicated in most narcissistic personality problems and to rule out a mother child relationship issue would be remiss. Traditional narcissism is self-love however, in the case in question, the mother image deeply impressed in the child's earliest memory becomes the focus of the person's delusion and is often released (" the bell going off scenario") after a serious trauma - be-it emotional, physical, economic etc. I am not sure of the numbers of ex-military who report transsexual issues but from my own research it is quite a high proportion in the USA. Often this is a direct result of the trauma they experience. The manifestation of their mother comforting image overwhelms them and they subsequently seek to be her (A female just becomes more like her mother and so does not present with an issue other than depression, hence the higher incidence of depression in females) Information on the net and "support" groups only reinforce the ideation. Many of these people subsequently after transitioning suicide but, the figures no longer show up as male TS but as 'female.' They die with their dream.

My understanding here is that your assertion is that 30% of the TG population is delusional?

My understanding is that TG (commonly refered to as GID or Gender Identity Disorder) patients, as stated in the DSM-IV, are not dellusional. The standards which most Dr's follow are meant to weed out the dellusion from those with genuince gender identity issues. Persistence is a huge thing when it comes to identifying people with GID. We are not talking about people who woke up one day and said "Hey I want to be the opposite gender". What is happening here is that people, often from very early childhood, felt they were different than the gender that was given to them at birth and choose to follow what they feel is true and proper for them.

You mentioned Harry Benjamin. According to Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association, after the gender disorder is treated, comorbid mood and anxiety usually do not return. In addition, Psychosis is rare. The only time psychosis comes into play in regards to GID is when this gender identity is seen as a psychotic symptom in cases such as schizophrenia. And GID in in schizophrenics is extremely rare. So according to what I understand of what you said, 30% of TG persons are the very rare schizophrenic.

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Early-childhood experiences are indicated in most narcissistic personality problems and to rule out a mother child relationship issue would be remiss

So this has me a little confused as well. Are you saying that TG persons are narcissistic?

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I am not sure of the numbers of ex-military who report transsexual issues but from my own research it is quite a high proportion in the USA. Often this is a direct result of the trauma they experience

I would be extremely interested in your research on this topic.

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Information on the net and "support" groups only reinforce the ideation.

The same could be said for PC as well. Or any other site or group that offers support to people.

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Many of these people subsequently after transitioning suicide but, the figures no longer show up as male TS but as 'female.'

Would you be able to tell me where you found this information? All the data that I have seen in the years I have spent researching this state something very different. Yes those post transition to still commit suicide. However, the number of those who choose this route before ever transitioning is significantly higher. The national sucide rate is approximately 3 per 100,000. Suicide fro the TG community is approximately 55 for every 100,000. More than 50% of people who identify as TG will attempt suicide at least one time before they are 20. For those post transition, the suicide rate is between 1 and 2.5 per 1000,000.

What about gender identity when one doesn't really identify with either gender?

I know I have a female body. It's always been there. I know what to do with it. I don't like it. I'd rather have something else. Male would be OK. "Neither" would be good. But there's no box for "neither". I hate having to be female, but I don't think I'm a misplaced male. It's confusing...

Wow, Jazzy. That's all I have to say is wow. I feel there is some extreme ignorance on your part. Are YOU doing the research here? I have seen no articles to prove your point nor have you given any references to back your statements up.

How you describe it, half the population should be TG. How many people have you ever met that have a perfect relationship with their family? You are taking correlation and causation and not realizing that they are different.

Traffic accident go up at the same time turkey sales do. That is a correlation, not causation. The theme would be thanksgiving. More people traveling, hence more accidents. But turkey sales have NOTHING to do with traffic accidents.

So while you may find that TG people have had 'dysfunctional' experiences growing up, so has everyone else who is considered 'normal'. You cannot relate the two. That's like saying every little kid who plays with fire will be an arsonist. I bet if you look, most arsonist had tendencies at a young age to play with fire. But playing with fire as a little kid doesn't mean you will grow up to be an arsonist.

And the suicide rate.....you sure that has something to do with being delusional? Perhaps the fact that TG people are not accepted in society, or the fact that they get made fun of and emotionally mistreated bc of the way they are have something to do with it. Once again, correlation....not causation.

I suggest you open your mind a little more. That type of thinking is what causes chasms in society and non-acceptance of one another.

I believe I do open my mind and many others minds too who have been hoodwinked by an industry because psychiatrists threw their hands in the air with this problem. We were once told by the powers to be that the world was flat, apparently it still is in many people's minds because so many have stopped asking WHY? Gender variance should be seen for what it is - normal - and the need for surgery and chemicals is an insult to humanity. When the Emperor drove past in the carriage it was the little boy that called out "The Emperor has no clothes on". He's still saying it that's why most TS are petrified of little kids. We are naked apes not a clothes horse that the likes of Max Factor paints daily. If these people are women well so be it in the own body and in their own minds not butchered and drugged up.

*is confused*

How can a women be a women if she has a penis? At the same time how can a man be a man without one? If one person feels as though they are female but has a penis, how can she ever truely live as female if she in face is anatomically not female? Hormones are not the same as being drugged up. As for being butchered, am I safe in assuming that you consider gener reassignment surgery on the same level as genital mutilation? If one has any alterations done to their genitals then it is butchery?

Absolutely. Gender variance is normal to some extent but how is surgery inhumane? Body variance of all kinds is also completely normal but some people still chose to use surgery as a way of changing that body. Sometimes it is because of negative body image and pressure from society. However, other times it is because of health, comfort, or other issues. Is that considered inhumane and butchery as well?

I have a dream that one day the chicken can cross the road without having his motives questioned. WHY? is it important to you?

If Jimmy cracks corn and no one cares, why is there a song about it? WHY? is it important to you as well?

Friendship is but another name for an alliance with the follies and the misfortunes of others. Our own share of miseries is sufficient: why enter then as volunteers into those of another?
Thomas Jefferson

I wonder if Jefferson was talking about Transgender support groups in particular?

In a memorandum submitted in regard to the committee stage on the British Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill (CJ&I 391); November 2007.
( www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmpublic/criminal/memos/ucm39102.htm ) the following was noted:
“Every trans person in the UK today has to undertake a risk analysis that weighs up home imprisonment on welfare benefits, suicide or the risk of physical harm, possibly even rape or murder as the price to be paid for living their lives in their preferred gender role. Research [published by the Equalities Review] showed that the suicide attempt rate for trans people is very high, far higher than the rate for one of the most mentally vulnerable groups; people with ongoing mental health problems as a result of childhood abuse or trauma.”

Not all current trans folk make it to the catwalk even though their delusion takes them to it.

Now I'm not even angry. I'm confused. Because nothing you just said has anything to do with anything. None of it even makes sense. What the hell does any of what you just said have anything to do with this thread? Catwalk? That sentence doesn't even make sense! I'm pretty sure THOMAS JEFFERSON was not talking about a TG support group.

Back to the OP.....this thread has gone from a good discussion to a debate. Can we please get back to talking about the original issue?

Their delusions take them to the catwalk?

No not all trans folks make it to the cat walk. Some of them quietly slip into your community just like everyone else in the world. You do not know they are there. They live the life they feel right living without any approval from you or anyone else.

My understanding of this is "Hide in the background and never be satisfied with who you are because if you don't you could be raped". Absolutely unacceptable. How many times do we as a society tell our children, "To hell with what the world says. Be yourself and be anything you wanna be"? I guess this only applies to people who fit neatly into a societal standard. If you do not fit this standard you are relgated to the back room with no chance of success and can achieve nothing greater than welfare benefits. And this is acceptable? Not in my world.

It is also important to note that in the study you cited, nowhere does it make a difference if one is post transition or pre transition. The sucide rate for LGBT persons is significantly higher than the general population because of the battle that rages internally. On one hand, humans desire approval from loved ones which often does not exist if one deviates from the norm. On the other hand, humans desire autonomy and strive to be who they want to be. This internal battle creates so much turmoil internally that it is nearly impossible to see a solution. It is this that create a situation ripe for suicide.

Ummmmmmm. Ok. Would you be so kind as to explain what you mean by this? I have my assumptions but would like to understand your meaning.

Correllation does not equal causation. There are a number of factors that could explain those statistics, not just the fact that they are TG. In my layman's perspective, this is an issue related to society and education rather than a specific problem with medical/psychological treatment of TG people.

Undoubtedly there are going to better treatment options and better methodologies that will be discovered to help TG people and research is certainly key to that, so I applaud efforts to find the truth regarding this issue. However, referring to it as "delusion" is dismissive and unhelpful to this discourse. TG people have fought long and hard to have their identities recognized as legitimate and while I certainly do not want any aspect of research repressed, care must be taken to show the people behind those identities respect. IMHO, the word "delusion" does not show respect, it only challenges with negative connotation, ignoring the TG individual's perspective and freedom.

My apologies in advance if I have misunderstood your post.

Clarification -Yes!

Google Transsexual sites = results About 1,910,000 results, thats almost one for every transsexual in the world. Most of which are sex sites and support sites.

Google Independent Gender Identity Research papers About 292,000 results many of which do not fit into the transsexual category.

My questions both in my local community and here is WHY? If we continue to accept the status quo more lives (the family, wives and children of this predominately male preoccupation) will be damaged. Current explanations rely on theories formulated over 50 years ago and, "being born in the wrong body" is just not good enough. If it takes people like me to stir up this fusty porridge called research well so be it.

As far as the Jefferson quote goes, it is that Transsexual support sites often do just that, support people to enter into the world of Alice, A looking glass or rabbit hole from which they never return.

We have been well warned over the years of the delusional problems faced by many people and in particular by Lewis Carroll’s, Alice in Wonderland and, the Brothers Grim, In The Emperor’s New Clothes.

. . .A child, however, who had no important job and could only see things as his eyes showed them to him, went up to the carriage.
"The Emperor is naked," he said.
"Fool!" his father reprimanded, running after him. "Don't talk nonsense!" He grabbed his child and took him away. But the boy's remark, which had been heard by the bystanders, was repeated over and over again until everyone cried:
"The boy is right! The Emperor is naked! It's true!"
The Emperor realized that the people were right but could not admit to that. He thought it better to continue the procession under the illusion that anyone who couldn't see his clothes was either stupid or incompetent. And he stood stiffly on his carriage, while behind him a page held his imaginary mantle.

Do I have to be that Child? WHY?

I have more to say but this is not the forum to say it. Please note, I have not invoked religion into this argument because deep down that is why we have transsexulism. Religious rigidity stifles diversity and so causes perversion. Any study of sexual understandings of West and East Berliner’s after the collapse of the cold war is a fine example of this understanding.

Self Injury support site: 9,000,000
Mental illness support sites:15,000,000
Homosexuality support sites: 102,000,000
Plastic surgery support sites:14,000,000
Addiction support sites: 7,000,000

What's the point? Support sites serve a purpose for someone just like everything else on the internet and within a community.

Gender identity research is a gret thing but what doesit matter if msny do not fit in with the transgender topic? Gender identity reaches much further than transgender. Ones position in society, how society views gender, how one relates with society. Perhapse there needs to be far more reaserch done strictly on transgender? If you are going to google independent transgender research papers, youwill find there are more than 260,000 results. Again, what is the point?

The current status quo will in no way damage families etc. The current status quo is to adhere to the norm. If one chooses to deviate from the norm they are damaged. If one is damaged they are worthless in the eye of society. This is the status quo. The status quo has led to the death of millions of people throughout the years. The status quo is why racisim, homophobia, sexism, and hatred of all kinds still exist. It is when people choose to break away from the status quo thatthe pain can subside.

Istill do not understand whatthe Emperor's New Clothes have to do with any of this? The dude was naked. What does that have to do with gender?

The whole point of this thread had absolutely nothing to do with anything that you have brought up. I asked a simple question whether people have questioned their gender identity and whether this identity was reinforced by family or what. Had I know that at any time it would have led to a derogitory portrayal of any person i would have never asked the question. I regret opening this topic because it has spun into something thatis completely disrepectful to anentire segment of the population and has far reaching consiquences. You have chosen to take a segment of society and dismiss them like they were worthless. It is this same additude that allows hate crimes to continue unchecked. These additudes keep people in thebackground on a daily basis because they feel they do not deserve to live. Please relegate anyone who does not fit neatly into a little box to their own home so you do not have to look at them.

I regret creating this topic and refuse to feed into your biggoted additude any longer. The question I asked does not matter and from this point on I refuse to participate.

I will be requesting that this thread be locked and/or removed. I will not be party to hateful additudes towards anyone and refuse to be seen as the reason it started in the beginning.

I'm locking this thread on request, and also because it has gone way off topic from the original post that the OP has made.

Please remember that our Community Guidelines ask that all posts remain supportive in nature, and that this is not an appropriate forum for debate.

Thanks,

Christina86
co-administrator