[Edpsy77]

I have not found one report that reconciles why hetero men are substantially more aggressive(i.e. straight men commit more murder than gay men) than gay men.

If it is asserted that straight men and gay men have the same level of testosterone, they should display equal levels of aggression according to the vast majority of genetic theories surrounding gender and aggression. In most popular science, aggression in men is heavily attributed to testosterone. Thus, I don’t get how gay men are substantially less violent than straight men when we live in a culture that predominantly celebrates straight masculinity. Feel free to offer any theories how this apparent dichotomy can still be reconciled under theory of more testosterone=more aggression.


BTW It has been reported that gay aggression is very similar to the pattern of female aggression which is primarily verbal.

[Leed]

I've seen some gay men get pretty darn aggressive, so I don't know where they've done their studies. In my home down, we have quite a group of gay men, and they aren't violent by ANY means, but they don't take any crap either. They will NOT be abused by anyone! They stand up for themselves and I applaud them. Too many gays are taunted, abused, beaten, etc., and this bunch refuses to be!!! While they can be very sensitive and great people, they just won't bow down to anyone.

Any place else see this?

[Edpsy77]

Originally Posted by Leed

I've seen some gay men get pretty darn aggressive, so I don't know where they've done their studies. In my home down, we have quite a group of gay men, and they aren't violent by ANY means, but they don't take any crap either. They will NOT be abused by anyone! They stand up for themselves and I applaud them. Too many gays are taunted, abused, beaten, etc., and this bunch refuses to be!!! While they can be very sensitive and great people, they just won't bow down to anyone.

Any place else see this?

Keep in mind when I use the term aggression I am talking about degree. The reports that I have read contend that straight men are far more likely to use violent physical aggression than gay men. Evolutionary psychologists contend that one of the fundumental reasons why straight men committ more violent acts than straight women is that straight men have more testosterone than straight women. There are reports that assert straight men and gay men have the same level of testosterone. Thus, it is puzzling why straight men committ substantially more acts of violent, physical agression than their male counterparts. I would expect straight men and gay men to be equally violent according Darwinian belief.

what is the purpose of this thread? what are you looking for someone to say?

[Canis_Lupus]

Originally Posted by Edpsy77

Keep in mind when I use the term aggression I am talking about degree. The reports that I have read contend that straight men are far more likely to use violent physical aggression than gay men. Evolutionary psychologists contend that one of the fundumental reasons why straight men committ more violent acts than straight women is that straight men have more testosterone than straight women. There are reports that assert straight men and gay men have the same level of testosterone. Thus, it is puzzling why straight men committ substantially more acts of violent, physical agression than their male counterparts. I would expect straight men and gay men to be equally violent according Darwinian belief.

You poste an interesting question
although I am no authority on this matter, I would think that Homosexual males cannels the aggressive impulses, that comes as a result of Testosterone, in a different way than a straight man.
This change of channelization, is a result of a, what shall I say, independence from the heterosexual norms.

For example:
A straight man may channel his aggressive impulses in a wry direct manner (in the form of physical violence) because it is expected of him.

The need to be “the alpha man” is deeply embedded in our genes, as well as our culture, the same gene, the “alpha man gene” if you want, lies in homosexuals, but due to the fact that they are ruled less by heterosexual norms they have a lesser need to be as aggressive towards others.
In other words: Homosexual males are less aggressive than heterosexuals because they don’t feel the need to impress females.

The energy which is normally (I use this expression lightly) spent establishing yourself as a alpha man, is by homosexuals (and maybe to a lesser degree, us bisexuals) in other pursuits, which may also explain why so many homosexuals tends to excel in their fields.

I hope I have made myself understood, and please bear in mind that this is my personal theory and dos not necessarily have scientific basis, for that reason I will appreciate to be corrected if my theory contains any flaws as a result of incorrect data.
Yours truly
Canis_Lupus

[kindachaotic]

Maybe gay men have more estrogen, progesterone & prolactin than straight men.
But, I really have no clue. Haven't read any studies or anything.

[Edpsy77]

Originally Posted by unhappyguy

what is the purpose of this thread? what are you looking for someone to say?

The purpose of this thread is to allow others to give responses to rectify the perceived dichotomies in evolutionary theories of sexual behavior. Gay men and straight men are reported to have the same level of testosterone yet, straight men are substantially more violent than gay men. I hope this clarifies the purpose.

[Pandoren]

My first thought is whether the statistics say, for example, 8 out of 10 acts of extreme violence are committed by heterosexual men or, again for example, 34% of homosexual and 67% of heterosexual men have committed a violent crime.

With the former, it stands to reason that more violence is committed by heterosexuals since they are a majority. With the latter, that shows a clear difference in proportional violence between the two groups.

My second thought is- I wonder how bisexual men fit into this?

[Edpsy77]

{QUOTE]I hope I have made myself understood, and please bear in mind that this is my personal theory and dos not necessarily have scientific basis, for that reason I will appreciate to be corrected if my theory contains any flaws as a result of incorrect data.
[/QUOTE]
Thank you for your response. I do understand that most member will not have scientific expertise.

You poste an interesting question
although I am no authority on this matter, I would think that Homosexual males cannels the aggressive impulses, that comes as a result of Testosterone, in a different way than a straight man.
This change of channelization, is a result of a, what shall I say, independence from the heterosexual norms.

It is possible. It is also possible that our Darwinian experts do not have a full understanding of testosterone, however they unintentionally posit over-simplified theories in their attempt to increase our understanding of human nature.

The need to be “the alpha man” is deeply embedded in our genes, as well as our culture, the same gene, the “alpha man gene” if you want, lies in homosexuals, but due to the fact that they are ruled less by heterosexual norms they have a lesser need to be as aggressive towards others.

Why are they ruled less by heterosexual norms since they are men and also live in the same culture that predominantly promotes heterosexual norms? Gay men should simply replicate these heterosexual norms within their gay society. Based on biology, there should be no core differences between hetero men and straight men, since they are biologically men. The only fundamental difference that should exist is that gay men are attracted to men and heterosexual men are attracted to women.

In other words: Homosexual males are less aggressive than heterosexuals because they don’t feel the need to impress females.

However, gay men are attracted to males so based on darwinian logic, gay men should feel the need to impress other men. There are substantially more straight male violent criminals than gay violent criminals. Are you asserting that, straight males are violent criminals so they can gain female attention? Most females find violent criminals abhorrent. That is a pretty odd way of trying to impress the ladies. The aggression that I am referring to is anti-social. There are some seeds of truth in your theory when it concerns pro-social aggression which is considered sports, self-defense and protection especially when it involves ladies. However, the aggression that I am referring to is anti-social.

[Edpsy77]

Originally Posted by Pandoren

My first thought is whether the statistics say, for example, 8 out of 10 acts of extreme violence are committed by heterosexual men or, again for example, 34% of homosexual and 67% of heterosexual men have committed a violent crime.

With the former, it stands to reason that more violence is committed by heterosexuals since they are a majority. With the latter, that shows a clear difference in proportional violence between the two groups.

My second thought is- I wonder how bisexual men fit into this?

Actually it is considered conventional wisdom that gays are less violent than straight people. It is also conventional scientific wisdom that gay males are more promiscous than straight men, straight women, and lesbians. What I find dichtomous about this discussion about gender and sexual orientation is that experts claim that gay men are adopting the conventional hetero-sexual male paradigm in their sexual behavior.

However, in the straight world experts keep pointing to testosterone as the smoking gun evidence to claimed disparate sex drives between straight men and women. The claimed biological theory posits that straight men have more testosterone, therefore they are stronger, more aggressive and possess higher sex drives than women. Yet, gay males and straight males have are reported to have the same level of testosterone but gay males are considered to have substantially higher sex drives than straight men.

[Canis_Lupus]

Originally Posted by Edpsy77

{QUOTE]I hope I have made myself understood, and please bear in mind that this is my personal theory and dos not necessarily have scientific basis, for that reason I will appreciate to be corrected if my theory contains any flaws as a result of incorrect data.

Thank you for your response. I do understand that most member will not have scientific expertise.


It is possible. It is also possible that our Darwinian experts do not have a full understanding of testosterone, however they unintentionally posit over-simplified theories in their attempt to increase our understanding of human nature.



Why are they ruled less by heterosexual norms since they are men and also live in the same culture that predominantly promotes heterosexual norms? Gay men should simply replicate these heterosexual norms within their gay society. Based on biology, there should be no core differences between hetero men and straight men, since they are biologically men. The only fundamental difference that should exist is that gay men are attracted to men and heterosexual men are attracted to women.

However, gay men are attracted to males so based on darwinian logic, gay men should feel the need to impress other men. There are substantially more straight male violent criminals than gay violent criminals. Are you asserting that, straight males are violent criminals so they can gain female attention? Most females find violent criminals abhorrent. That is a pretty odd way of trying to impress the ladies. The aggression that I am referring to is anti-social. There are some seeds of truth in your theory when it concerns pro-social aggression which is considered sports, self-defense and protection especially when it involves ladies. However, the aggression that I am referring to is anti-social.[/QUOTE]

You hold valide pointes, but i do somwhat disagre:

Gay men tendens to be outsiders, outcasts if you like, from the hetrosexuale grup.
This chouses the homosexuale norme to be slightly different than the hetrosexual.

Yout claim, hovever, that the homosexuales replicate the hetrosexuale norme in their own sociale group is, for that reason true in generale, but the confusione
Originateing from being unabole or unwilling to conforme to the hetrosexuale norme, added the atractione to males during the individuales sexuale awakening, may cause him to adopt some normes that are traditionaly female. This normes may be less focused on direct violence than the male.

[Pandoren]

Originally Posted by Edpsy77

Actually it is considered conventional wisdom that gays are less violent than straight people. It is also conventional scientific wisdom that gay males are more promiscous than straight men, straight women, and lesbians.

When you say "conventional wisdom", what exactly do you mean? It sounds to me like you are basically saying that this is "what everyone knows" when in fact it can be the case that a lot of people can all collectively be mistaken. Do you have any scientific links to back up your stated facts?

Well...if promiscuous means having plenty of sex with many partners...then I would imagine those doing that would feel rather fufilled as far as parts of the brain may be concerned. Maybe promiscuous men are too damned tired and relaxed to be contentious.

Originally Posted by unhappyguy

what is the purpose of this thread? what are you looking for someone to say?

I don't really understand the point in any of these threads - most people here are not doctors or have the experience in the research fields the OP is asking questions about. Im all for intellectual discussion but i can't help but feel these threads require being posted somewhere more specific or on a different forum altogether...

[lynn P.]

Is there a specific study with statistics to support this?

[Edpsy77]

Originally Posted by quizzickle

Well...if promiscuous means having plenty of sex with many partners...then I would imagine those doing that would feel rather fufilled as far as parts of the brain may be concerned. Maybe promiscuous men are too damned tired and relaxed to be contentious.

Perhaps but I don't see any studies that are confirming this.

[Pandoren]

Originally Posted by Edpsy77

Perhaps but I don't see any studies that are confirming this.

And yet there are no studies that you have put forward to confirm your own claims either.

[Edpsy77]

Originally Posted by Pandoren

And yet there are no studies that you have put forward to confirm your own claims either.

Here are studies that claim homosexual men are less physically aggressive than straight men:

1. Relational aggression and victimization in gay male relationships: the role of internalized homophobia.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18506684
Re

2. Aggression, Empathy and Sexual Orientation
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...91886905002527

BTW If you would like, you can read the book called Brainstorm: The Flaws in the Science of Sex Differences by Rebecca Jordan Young. She challenges many of the theories regarding gender differences and sexual orientation. She is a sociomedical scientist whose research includes social epidemiology studies of HIV/AIDS, and evaluation of biological work on sex, gender and sexuality. If want more links, please let me know.

[Edpsy77]

Originally Posted by Pandoren

Do you have any scientific links to back up your stated facts?

Yes I do.


Men are Gay reported to display relational aggression which is similar to straight women which is aggression. Here are the links:

1. Gay men vent aggression through verbals, not violence – new study
December 22, 2005
http://phys.org/news9280.html

2. Relational aggression and victimization in gay male relationships: the role of internalized homophobia.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18506684

3. Aggression, Empathy and Sexual Orientation
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...91886905002527




Relational aggression(i.e. gossip) is considered more feminine type of aggression. Here are the links:

1. Bullying in the Female-world
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...e-female-world

2. Sex differences in indirect aggression Psychological evidence from young adults
http://itb.biologie.hu-berlin.de/~ha...etaliation.pdf

3. Girls use a different kind of weapon
http://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug03/girls.aspx

I can send more if you like.

[UnhingedHick]

Originally Posted by Edpsy77

I have not found one report that reconciles why hetero men are substantially more aggressive(i.e. straight men commit more murder than gay men) than gay men.

If it is asserted that straight men and gay men have the same level of testosterone, they should display equal levels of aggression according to the vast majority of genetic theories surrounding gender and aggression. In most popular science, aggression in men is heavily attributed to testosterone. Thus, I don’t get how gay men are substantially less violent than straight men when we live in a culture that predominantly celebrates straight masculinity. Feel free to offer any theories how this apparent dichotomy can still be reconciled under theory of more testosterone=more aggression.


BTW It has been reported that gay aggression is very similar to the pattern of female aggression which is primarily verbal.

I do not think this is true? I am a very agressive male some itmes agressvice in a physcial way sometimes, I'm gay.. Not saying i go aounrd beating y'all up mind.
ut when i get angry it aint a pretty sight.

[Trippin2.0]

I think its simple: Darwinarians dont know jackshit when it comes down to it. How dare I? Simply put? People cant be put into little boxes with neat little labels... Where would individuality fit into that ghastly cardboard flavoured existance?