I did not know this were legal, but apparently it still is...

https://www.change.org/petitions/gov...QBb_EhTBuvlkkp

I was under the false impression that this thing dubbed "conversion therapy" has long been outlawed. It attempts to guilt non-straight people for being the way they are and to turn them straight. I did not realize it is legal in the US, but apparently outside of California, it is.

The link is to a petition supporting outlawing this thing in NJ.

Homosexuality was only removed from the DSM due to political rather than scientific reasons.

I was never under the impression that this was illegal and I don't believe it should be even though I firmly believe that it is ineffective. For example, acupuncture is still legal even though it's ineffective. Efforts should be made to educate people, but going around making things illegal is not the solution. Look how great it worked with recreational drugs.

I disagree because the target population is underage. So they are being taken advantage of and should be protected. Also, acupuncture is just a waste of money. "Failing" at getting better from acupuncture does not mean that a patient is somehow bad and should feel guilty. Cf. failing at the "conversion" offered to you as the only way to redeem yourself.

Nobody forces them to go into this treatment, they go there based on there own decisions.

they are too young to give meaningful consent to sex, which is why we have statutory rape concept throughout the country

so you are saying that they are too young to give meaningful consent to sex (with the possible caveat: too young to consent to sex with an older partner and what exactly is older differs by state) but mature enough to give meaningful consent to a "therapy" that aims to change their sexual orientation?

does it make much sense?

any time you take away something like that it's screwing with the amendments. I may not like what somebody else has to say, but at least I know I have the right to say something back.

that is a good point

again, all fine with people who are of age

So by your definition we should ban sex education in schools then untill the person is old enough to consent to sex.

no, sex education presents facts and does not attempt to turn anybody into anything.

there is no relationship whatsoever between sex education and "conversion therapy" - in fact, they really cannot be more distinct

The purpose of evidence-based sex education is to empower people to make their own choices.

The purpose of "conversion therapy" is to force people into the choices they might not make by themselves, most often to their detriment. It basically dictates to people what they should do, feel, etc. In that sense, it is not "therapy" at all, because the most basic tenet of therapy is that the client should not be told how to feel.

Where is an overlap?

unfortunately people who are of age can be as mentally susceptible or more so than those who are not. You could also bring up a whole slew of other things like. circumcision. As soon as you take away a parents right to parent, a persons right to speak, etc. you get into so many little instances it's impossible to come up with a solution. There are always things that qualify as abuse, neglect, bad parenting period, and there are so many different things to sue for. Somebody who has been mentally traumatized by that sort of thing can get retribution and help later on in life. I'm not saying it was ok it happened, but that you can't stop someone from bullying, you can only work against it. America is all about people being able to be people. How are these underage kids getting into this sort of therapy anyway? did they ask their parents to put them through it? How would you feel if you were told your decision to put your child through your religions education should be outlawed because there are studies it is mentally damaging? I hope you see my point and the reason it's not illegal.

But they choose to go there. Nobody forces them to go there. It's a bit like someone choosing to get whipped by a dominatrix and then complaining when it happens.

But they don't choose to go there. They are manipulated and threatened by their parents that they will go to Hell or will be disowned or emotionally or physically beaten if they don't choose not to be gay. And it doesn't have to be parents, it can be bullies, teachers, even society that tells them it is wrong to be gay and the only way to be fixed is by becoming straight which isn't possible. Nobody can just magically change their orientation, it takes brain washing and manipulation.

I don't think anybody wants to go to straight camp because they think it is best for them, they do it because they have no other choice.

You haven't met every parent to know their thoughts on it. A lot of these people keep their sexuality to themselves.

And society, western society tends to be more pro gay these days.

Also if some people view their own homosexuality as a disease then why can't they seek help for it? I also don't think it can be changed, but I also believe people should be given the opportunity to try if the want to do it.

[quote=Lycanthrope;3141472
Also if some people view their own homosexuality as a disease then why can't they seek help for it? I also don't think it can be changed, but I also believe people should be given the opportunity to try if the want to do it.[/quote]

that's a good point. I can't change that I have a mental disorder but I sure do everything in my power to anyway.

I do see your point, but there is a difference between therapy and religious education. religious education is not subject to government's oversight, because we have the separation of church and state. therapy is very much subject to government's oversight:

therapists need to obtain and maintain their licenses. They need education, they need hours, they need to pass the exams, they need continuing education credits post licensure. There are ethics. They are all regulated on the state level because there are boards that regulate them, just as the Medical Boards regulate MD's. The boards are state agencies -- in other words, governmental bodies. There are certain things therapists are not allowed to do. So it would make sense to regulate them further - plus, since there are both APA positions that state that homosexuality is no disease, and the positions date back to the 1970s, what exactly are the "therapists" treating?

Say, if I were a psychic or a faith healer or a circus clown and offered to convert gays into straight people, I should be allowed to do that. But not as a therapist. Because psychics, faith healers, and circus clowns are not regulated occupations.

I lean towards your belief Hamster and don't think underage people should be coerced to receive this treatment. If a persons struggling being gay, they should explore this is therapy but I don't believe anyone can be turned straight, anymore than a straight person turning gay. Why aren't there clinics advocating straights turning gay and would this be fine? I happen to think there's value in acupuncture but that's not the topic here.

I have heard of value to acupuncture as well and have considered it for insomnia, but the cost/benefit analysis did not make it worth it (I was told that I would need many sessions, so, time+money+uncertain results).

Brilliant on doing the reverse (the bold part).

It is an interesting point... but suffers from circular reasoning - in the case of the conversion "therapy", the providers of the "service" act to convince their potential clients that there is a disease. The word itself - "conversion" - implies that there is a treatable disease. So, not fair.

I can possibly see myself being a therapist and not believing that it is a disease, yet, when asked for help from a client who does believe that it is a disease, trying to do something to help the client. It is a can of worms, since there is no evidence that it can be "helped" and you agree with that, but at least, ***in theory***, I can see myself doing things with the client that would, potentially, induce the client to be attracted to the opposite sex. But for that I need to be a completely neutral service provider in the first place who never advertises the services called "conversion therapy".

In other words, it is not that we should disallow those who think that it is a disease to seek help, but that we should disallow coercion and deceptive advertising practices. To offer "conversion therapy" for a non-existent disease promising unrealistic results is false advertising. It is not that there is no false advertising because there is, but even outside of therapy, there are sanctions for false advertising. Given that:

- potential clients are underage
- the practice involves an occupation regulated by the government

the sanctions against false advertising should only be stronger.