Childhood spanking and sexual development

Maven,

Here's an intersting site: http://rosemond.com/index.php.
I don't know if you are familiar with John Rosemond. He is a family psychologist who has great ideas about disciplining children that are about effectiveness, age-appropriateness, and that encourage the true meaning of 'discipline' (to make a disciple of.. to lead toward).

Anyway, I have always admired him and his suggested methods (except one I strongly disagreed with). He has an article on this site about his views on spanking and it mentions appropriate ages and effectiveness.

He used to write a twice-weekly column for the newspaper in the town I came from. I enjoyed reading his column that detailed a particulary problem and offered a solution, using affirmative dicipline, done with matter-of-fact firmness and calmness to show that there are consequences for one's actions. He talks about how to set appropriate consequences and what to do when that consequence doesn't work. He has a lot of good ideas.

I hope this is useful to you as you explore the idea of disciplining.

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Thanks ECHOES. I don't have children, I should have mentioned, but I still have an interest in this topic, especially if there is a connection to sexuality. In other words, I'm interested in sexual issues, and wonder from where some of them come from, which means childhood has to be explored sometimes.

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I don't have children either, but the topic interests me too because of my past!

I've been thinking about the idea that spanking is considered sexual in some situations but not in others. Like we said earlier in this post, everyone knows you can buy paddles and other spanking implements in a sex shop. No one's questioning that they're sexual in that scenario. Also, if an adult spanks another adult without consent (like in a case of office sexual harassment) -- in addition to assault, it's likely to also be considered sexual misconduct. And no one thinks twice about that. People widely view spanking as a sexual act between adults. It's only when you have an adult and a child (and an intent to discipline rather than a sexual intent) that it's considered non-sexual. And I guess I'm concerned by the idea that something can be circumstantially sexual. I think a person's own sexuality is independent of anyone else's intent (i.e. no one intended corporal punishment as a sexual practice when I was in school; yet I did end up connecting it with sexuality because of my age and development, etc.). Offhand, spanking is the only thing I can think of that's considered sexual between adults but not between an adult and a child (though I'll give it some more thought and see if I can think of something else). That's kind of confusing in my opinion.

Okay I hope this post isn't too triggering. I really appreciate that we've been able to discuss this the way that we have, and I'm not suggesting I have any answers on parenting. I'm mostly interested in this subject because of how it affected me, and I want people to know that such possible negative effects are worth taking into consideration.

Sidony

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Sidony,

You bring up a really interesting topic here....I never thought about the connection between spanking children and spanking in adult life. Ya know, I've never been "in" to spanking as an adult. Its just never been my thing. I was spanked as a child, but only a few times and very lightly, so I don't consider it to have been a bad thing for me as a child. But I don't really like it as an adult. I'm not very "wild" I guess you could say. This is interesting though. You're absolutely right, as adults it is somewhat "popular" sexually. Haha. But I think you've opened up a boundry that I'm going to set for myself, because I've never really cared for it when a guy swats me on the bottom. Hmm.....thank you!

As far as your concern for your posts being triggery, I really appreciate you thinking about it. This thread is going very nicely though. Yes, I'm sure its triggering for some, but you've used the trigger icon, so hopefully sensitive eyes won't read. Maybe we should just continue to use that icon in all our replies in this thread.

Thank you for your honesty, again!!!

~Rayna

Well, I don't know what shapes a person's sexual identity. But if you add abuse of any kind to the picture, surely it is a factor but it might factor differently for different people and it could have a wide range of effects.

One more thing I want to say about spanking. If it is effective, then you of course remember not only the spanking but the reason that you were spanked....

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It seems to me that it is not helpful to spank children on the bare bottom at all. I totally think that is very humiliating to the child. I've read before where children have been given enemas and that just seems appauling. I can't imagine why an adult would do that ?? The spanking .. it seems adults resort to that out of desperation to gain control of the child .. but enemas ??

I have spanked my children when they were toddlers as instructed by my parents and grandparents - but I felt terrible each time. My husband and I decided that there were better ways of controlling a toddler besides hitting them and we stopped. The grandparents were sure that our children were going to grow up as ruined kids without spanking .. but I can say that they are fine youngsters. It took more effort on our part to teach without hitting - but it was certainly the right path for us.

My cousin takes pride in the fact that all he has to do is take off his belt and his kids run and set the table and then report to the kitchen to help ... I certainly am not impressed. In fact, I feel somewhat sick to my stomach. And I can guarentee you that my children are NEVER under the care of my cousin because I don't want my boys treated like that. I don't care if I have to miss an important event because of no baby sitters .. they aren't going over there.

I was spanked when I was a kid and while I remember some of the instances where I was spanked ... I cannot tell you what it was that I did to get the spanking. All I remember was that I was spanked.

I just think there are better methods than hitting.

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Peanuts said:
It seems to me that it is not helpful to spank children on the bare bottom at all. I totally think that is very humiliating to the child. I've read before where children have been given enemas and that just seems appauling. I can't imagine why an adult would do that ?? The spanking .. it seems adults resort to that out of desperation to gain control of the child .. but enemas ??

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Yeah that's horrid. I have heard of that sort of thing (enemas) as being part of sexual humiliation practices. I think any type of intentional sexual humiliation practice should be strictly between consenting adults; otherwise it is sexual abuse in my opinion. Spanking is much less black &amp; white because the intent is not to cause sexual humiliation, but when someone pulls a child's pants off prior to spanking them that's getting awfully close to sexual humiliation in my opinion. Fortunately I've never known anyone to undress a child before spanking them. Hopefully that's much less common now!

Good for you, Peanuts, on finding other ways to discipline! I personally am opposed to spanking in general, but I will say that I'm not arguing whether it's effective or not. I actually don't know. But I'm opposed to it even if it is effective -- even it's the most effective deterrent available (which I seriously doubt) -- because of its sexual connotations.

I was spanked as a child -- mostly it was corporal punishment inside the school system I mentioned. My parents didn't really do that. I know that my mother spanked me, but I can't actually remember it (I can only remember knowing that she had, so I must have been really little). I will say that for me spanking would never have had the intended effect (would not have worked as a deterrent on me) as it only resulted in a confused obsession with power/dominance/humiliation/pain that morphed into sexual identity issues.

Sidony

P.S. Just to be 100% clear, we are not referring to medically necessary enemas that an adult might help a child administer. This is strictly referencing the mention of enemas etc. as punishment.

Thank you for continuing to use the Trigger Icon. When replying in this thread, lets all reply to poster so that we can put the trigger icon on each reply. Thanks!

Sorry I didn't realize the icon wouldn't apply to the whole thread. I tried to go back and edit mine so that they'd all have the trigger icon, but the editing time expired.

But hopefully anyone who'd be sensitive to this issue will notice the overall thread designation.

Sid

I used to see a lot of movies and such that implied being spanked as a child could lead one into enjoying it sexually as an adult. Now, this isn't true of all people who are spanked, but it could be that way for some people.

This is only a theory, but I think, if it becomes sexual for an adult, perhaps the spankings were done, as some of you have said, to embarrass and humiliate the child. There are many fetishes that involve being humiliated and exposed, and perhaps, in some cases, it comes from these experiences as a child. Some people, for some reason, turn towards a bad experience and it somehow becomes pleasurable, at least in certain circumstances, while others move to the opposite, even to the extreme, to avoid such things. For those who become turned on by being humiliated, perhaps it's because they feel they deserve it. As we know, many times, when children are abused, they go through life abusing themselves and/or putting themselves in situations where they are hurt emotionally and/or physically, because they think they deserve it.

To put it mildly, I think human sexuality is very complicated, and what affects one person one way affects another completely different.

But on spanking, I used to be of the mind, when you see "out of control" kids whose parents didn't spank them, those kids needed a spanking. But I think there are techniques that don't involve hitting or pain in any way that can be better. I think many adults have been scarred by spanking and other painful methods of punishment. Some may not realize it. And I think some kids handle it well, while others may be shy or have low self-esteem, in part because they were spanked. I'm just saying, I'm open to alternatives.

That said, when a kid is being a brat around me, sometimes I want to smack them. But hey, I was spanked, so maybe that's why I have such a violent thought.

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Maven said:
I used to see a lot of movies and such that implied being spanked as a child could lead one into enjoying it sexually as an adult. Now, this isn't true of all people who are spanked, but it could be that way for some people.

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Yeah "Exit to Eden" is a humorous example. The guy was aroused by his attractive nanny spanking him when he was a child, and he goes on to want that as an adult. I think people don't want to believe that this happens, but it does for some people (not everyone of course and maybe only a few). I don't know what the trigger is exactly. I remember one day years and years ago I watched as another child was paddled in school (another humiliating practice is that sometimes kids are spanked in front of other children). I remember thinking how humiliating it was and how he could not possibly refuse to comply (those aren't the words I would have used then, but I can verbalize it now). That notion of forced humiliation / lack of power, etc. somehow got tangled into sexuality for me. And I've had to work to push that aside so that I can have interests in normal sexual intimacy (a little spice is fine, but I wouldn't want to have an unhealthy level of interest in deviant practices!).

WARNING: Imagine a giant triggermark covering this entire next section!

Some people don't believe that adult sexual arousal by corporal punishment has anything to do with childhood experiences. I think that people who have never seen spanking as sexual may not be be aware that the childhood connection is strongly evident in corporal punishment pornography. That type of pornography consists of pictures of people being spanked (obviously) as well as stories. It's in the stories that the childhood connection is most obvious. Usually the story consists of someone doing something "bad," being scolded for it and ultimately spanked. In fact, if a parent were to scold their child and spank him/her, then write a description of what had just occurred, that description could then be published on a corporal punishment pornography site without its even being necessary to embellish it. Though typically the story is embellished by making the spanking last a long time, using various implements, adding descriptions of arousal during the spanking and sometimes incorporating sexual intercourse, etc. afterward. Usually the story is rewritten so that the participant is actually an adult (i.e. the wife being scolded for having cheated or having not done the housework, etc. and then being spanked). Or else the participant seems to be a child but is really an adult -- that's where you get the Catholic schoolgirl / Daddy's-little-girl stories. The doing something bad / being scolded is the foreplay and the spanking is the sex act in these stories (though sometimes it's followed by real sex). Where else would a taste for this sort of thing come from if not through childhood experience? I doubt seriously that someone wakes up one day and says "oh now, I think I'll be aroused by being scolded and spanked." It just doesn't seem likely to me.

I don't think this type of sexuality is a healthy adult interest. In my opinion sexual pleasure should be derived from a relationship of equals in which you each take pleasure in the other physically/emotionally and without a need for roleplay/power games, etc. That's why I'm opposed to any practice that could possibly stimulate that type of interest (even if the possibility is low) and why I bring up the topic (so people might be more aware of it).

My continued apologies to all who are offended by this topic.

Thanks, Sidony

It certainly makes sense that abusive childhood spankings is one way an adult would become interested in abusive adult sexual activities. I imagine that such an adult would have to work really hard to learn what healthy adult sexuality is all about. I would hope that such an adult could find a path towards healing.

I think it is barbaric to have such paddling go on within a school setting and I am sorry you were exposed to such situations. There are better methods for maintaining discipline within a school setting. The opposite of physical abuse isn't permissiveness - which in my opinon is just another form of abuse in and of itself. Not resorting to spanking doesn't mean that you just let the kids do whatever they want - which is a very common response by folks who really truely believe that spanking is the best method to discipline children.

Children need clear consistent rules along with clear consistent responses from the adults who are their parents as well as those adults who are their teachers.

I would love it if ALL corporal punishment within schools (private and public) would stop. I wish that for those adults who are suffering still for the humiliation suffered during childhood can be healed.

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Peanuts said:
The opposite of physical abuse isn't permissiveness.

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Well said! I think there must be other possibilities.

Interesting how this thread is about so many intertwined issues. It's about sex and sexual development, what is/isn't abuse, and also about parenting! Hard to figure out where it belongs, but given it's triggering nature I suspect this is the best forum......

Sidony

I don't know that I found it sexually arousing (or at least, I'm not sure I was aware that's what was going on, if it was), but when I was very young, I used to enjoy spanking on TV, including in cartoons. Two scenes I remember from TV in my childhood were a Tom and Jerry cartoon where Tom is a young girl's cat, and she sort of plays house with him, and she's the "Mommy" and has to spank him at one point; and the other cartoon was "The Three Musketeers" on The Banana Splits show (for those old enough to remember that), and the boy in the cartoon, 'Tooly' (spelling?) was told he was going to get a spanking (although they didn't show it).

I also believe that those into S&amp;M and other fetishes and unusual sexual practices (which I don't feel are "deviant," but I'm not going into my theories on that right now) stem from childhood and youth. I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but this is what I believe: I believe religion, among other things, has a lot to do with some sexual practices. I think oppression of sex is a big problem. I also believe, had we evolved in such a way without religion (and I'm not talking about whether or not there's a God or Higher Power), or the way religions have often been interpreted, and if we'd also not had abuse, sexuality would mostly be very healthy, and without hang-ups. Of course, there are other factors in developing sexuality, such as fears of disease and pregnancy, so I'm not suggesting these are the only issues regarding sexuality.

All that said, I believe, as long as no one gets seriously hurt, and all parties consent, then unusual sexual practices are ok. Obviously, if any sexual act or interest becomes an obsession or interferes with your life, it's a problem, and therapy should be sought. But in general, I'm for "whatever floats your boat."

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanking

> Spanking of children within families is illegal in some countries (for example, Sweden, Switzerland, Iceland, Finland, Denmark, Norway, Austria, Holland, Germany, Italy, Malta, Cyprus, Croatia, Israel, Latvia,Estonia, and as of January 2007, Greece). New Zealand is currently debating whether or not to outlaw parental spanking, having outlawed corporal punishment within its educational institutions in 1989.

I studied it quite a lot in psychology (because the legality is being debated in NZ).

I changed my mind. I thought it was okay before, now I think that there are alternatives that are less likely to harm and thus we should use those alternatives.

This isn't to say that ALL people who are spanked are harmed.
It isn't to say that ALL people who are harmed were spanked.

It is just to say that people are more likely to be harmed by being spanked compared to being harmed by alternative methods such as age appropriate time out.

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FYI. This in today's paper:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...022601417.html

Oh my gosh - that poor kid !! and those other kids were exposed to that brutality as well. It seems likely to me that this wasn't the first time this child was spanked like that - just not in front of a crowd. And the adult even warned the child that she would do this awful shaming act .. and still the child behaved poorly in school to the point where the aunt was called. So .. I would say that this particular situation would lead me to conclude that spanking - even extremely shameful spanking - does not "make" a child behave nor does it teach a child HOW to behave. Otherwise, I'm sure this child would have straightened up when the threat was made and behaved like an angel. I'll bet the child is still a behavior challenge at school. So all those spankings did not "learn him a lesson".

Poor kid - I hope he is in a better living situation now.

I can see why this topic is marked with a trigger -- it triggered me to join and respond!

I was spanked as a kid -- not infrequently, and with "accessories." But it didn't just stop there, and actually my father didn't stop hitting me (pinching me, pulling my hair, pushing me to the ground, whacking me, grabbing my throat), until I was a junior in high school. And even after he did finally stop hitting me, he told me several times, "I wish your mother never made me stop hitting you." Obviously, it was never something he regretted doing.

I think what hitting teaches (what it taught me) is that your body is open to be used by others. Like it doesn't really belong to you. On top of this, my father was never affectionate with me, never hugged me, never seemed to want to protect me, never really talked to me about me. He never touched me unless in anger. He never apologized for what he did. My mother, who spanked me and slapped me too, was mostly absent, until she later got the nerve to make him stop. Something I wouldn't have even known about if he didn't tell me to my face. He made me feel totally unwanted.

I was a very strong, independent, outgoing girl when I was young. But when I reached puberty/middle school, everything changed. I become a loner, I took on some very bad coping mechanisms. I began purging and cutting in 8th grade, alcohol abuse in 9th (alone -- I wasn't going to parties). Until college I mostly stayed away from guys -- too shy and insecure, I guess. In college I began doing all the risky stuff. Always with alcohol. I am 24 and I have never so much as kissed a guy without having had a couple drinks. And I have kissed/(insert sexual maneuver) lots of guys. I've done stuff in alleyways and in unmarked vans that I am just disgusted by. Always with strangers. I have charged money for sex. You wouldn't know any of this by looking at me. I graduated from a top college with honors and I am an intelligent person. Come to think of it, that was the only thing my father ever did compliment me on -- my brain. I know it is a good thing to focus on your child's intelligence, but he never once told me I was a good person -- in fact, he said I was worthless. But hey, this worthless person gets A's!

For me there is no doubt that the way I was treated has a direct link with the way I act sexually. When I am in a bar (drunk) and a guy pays attention to me, looks at me like he wants me, smiles at me, it's like the best thing in the world. I feel the need to touch and be touched. I feel the need to keep making that person like me, if only for a couple hours. Once I sober up I'm too ashamed of myself/afraid of real intimacy to stick around. So I've never been in a relationship. I'm terrified of the idea of one. Although, sometimes I wish I could be in a relationship -- even an abusive one -- as long as the man usually treated me like "his little princess." Total daddy complex. I'm a cliche. I hookup with a lot of much older men.

My parents went way beyond spanking, so I'm definitely not saying that all my problems are the result of simple spanking. But I also know that there are parents who say, "oh, we spank our kids" when they really do much more than that. I think another major thing to keep in mind is that, even if you do spank your kids sometimes, you need to show them love and affection at all other times. My family was usually either in a state of rage or a state of co-worker style cordialness. Never affection (except my dad towards my mom -- she was perfect. He would dance her around the room and kiss her. I was in the way).

This has been really rambling and self-pitying, but I haven't vented most of this stuff to anyone and I think it can also stand as an example. Spanking should never be done, in my opinion, because it is disrespectful of the child, just as it is disrespectful to hit an adult. My father always demanded that I show him respect, but to this day I do not respect him because of the way he treated a child. If you want to go ahead and sparingly use spanking, then please make sure to let them know how much you love them. Let them know how special they are. Don't treat your kids as an extension of yourself. Let them know that their bodies belong to them. Let them know they make you happy just the way they are.

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Peanuts said:
Oh my gosh - that poor kid !! and those other kids were exposed to that brutality as well. It seems likely to me that this wasn't the first time this child was spanked like that - just not in front of a crowd. And the adult even warned the child that she would do this awful shaming act ..

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Yeah I'll never understand the use of humiliation as punishment. (I suspect the shaming was as bad as being beaten.) He's probably scarred for life, and I'd be furious if I were a parent of one of his classmates (those students shouldn't have witnessed anything like that).

I don't even like movies that use humiliation humor. I guess I'm sensitive!

Sidony

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lotusgirl said:
I can see why this topic is marked with a trigger -- it triggered me to join and respond!

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Glad to have you! And welcome! This particular thread seems to go in a lot of different directions (some of which upset people, so we keep it marked with triggers). Thanks for sharing your story! I'm really sorry to hear how you were treated -- that's awful!!! I can definitely see how it would affect your ability to have a relationship. I hope that will improve for you!!!

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I think what hitting teaches (what it taught me) is that your body is open to be used by others.

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You make a really good point here. I think any sort of violent act (spanking, slapping, more serious abuse, etc.) takes away the person's sense of ownership of their own body, makes them feel like they're someone else's object. I think it's just wrong, and I'm sorry that happened to you. I hope you'll be able to work through some of the problems that it has caused for you. That's intense.

On another note, welcome to the board! There are some great forums here. :-)

Sidony