why do people pretend porn isn't the problem?

hazn · Aug 19, 2016 at 10:48 PM

Fair enough, I understand that you believe it doesn't have any influence on your own sexual preferences, etc. Though I personally find it hard to accept due to the nature of pornography, and the intent behind watching it in the first place.

There's quite a bit of research in this area anyway if you want to read more into this.

Yeah you're right, everyone sees things differently... and we all have different morals, values, etc. But it seems to me like in many cases we've become blind to some of the negative messages we get from porn, TV, music, etc. And the fact that we don't see this things as negative, proves we've been influenced by them.

For example, forget about your own sexual preferences for a minute, do you think a man shooting their load all over a woman's face (very common in pornography) is an act of respect, or disrespect? What message do you think that gives concerning women?

Patagonia · Aug 20, 2016 at 02:16 PM

I do read the research into porn & how it's changed, but I also read about sexual philosophy, sexual psychology etc & how these changes are influencing us as humans. Why is this evolving & where will it lead us.

Yes I do believe we are in some ways like lemmings & following each other. I saw it in the fashion trend of males wearing their pants very low with their underwear sticking out. When I see teenagers wearing their clothes like that I wonder if they know the origins of what that means?
So yes we're heavily influenced by society & must stay on guard for it.

Your examples of facials? I know the answer you'd like to hear. A black or white one. I have too many questions to give you before I can tell you whether it's respectful or not.
How about the very popular pgasm, ball stomping (very popular with dommes ....what does that say about respecting men?) dollification, queening, toilet play etc etc etc.
All these things are very popular in porn.
How I view these will be differently from others.

hazn · Aug 20, 2016 at 03:22 PM

I'm not particularly fond of the idea of someone taking a peepee in my mouth, crushing my balls with their heels, or whipping me like I'm a horse or something. And it's not really the kind of relationship dynamic I want to enable to be honest. I don't feel the need to do that to someone else, either. But I understand others do do this. I just wonder what the reasoning behind it is and whether it's based on healthy psychology or unhealthy psychology (if that makes sense).

Anyway, I think we've probably gone as far as we can with this. I hope we both understand our different points of view a little better.

Apologies if you found anything I said offensive, that certainly wasn't my intention.

Patagonia · Aug 20, 2016 at 03:49 PM

No way, I thought this was a great discussion!

PenguinExMachina · Aug 22, 2016 at 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patagonia

Hazn,
In your first post you stated "Violence is violence....& I'm desensitized to it."

This I have a problem with Bec I'm not sure of your definition of violence in relation to the OP.
Violence that results in a crime I understand. Very well. I am NOT desensitized to it.
If you are speaking of violence in porn I'm also confused.
When porn is viewed, as with many others, it's viewed in 2D. I am not standing there, nor do I know what happens before the camera turns on. Is this a prearranged scene? Are these people getting paid to "act." Are these professionals? Amateurs? A home made production? Is there a verbal or written agreement beforehand? I don't know. I also don't know what happens after the camera is turned off. I don't jump to conclusions.

As far as what is broadcast on network tv I would think that would be in the hands of the producers & marketers. What will the market accept? What will the market bear? Again I think that's in the hands of the executives knowing that people have the power to turn that subject off. Just like porn.

The analogy of "I cheated on my boyfriend with 3 guys & don't blame me Bec I was manic.." In my humble opinion is a blanket judgement. Childish? Maybe.
But I don't know the background of this person. I don't know the details, the why questions are not answered & I just don't have enough information to say...yup, you're wrong!
Yes, society would state that hearing this info would conclude that this is a bad person.

I don't like to make fast judgement calls, there's too much gray area.
I try hard now not to practice black & white thinking.

You say that the way I choose to live my life is up to me & yes that is true. But you also say that it doesn't concern you when actually...it does.
Because In the next breath you ask how this may shape a person or what it might say about the person engaging in them. Ummmm hello?
Do you honestly wanto know why I practice BDSM? I don't think so, Bec the next line you state I'm not allowed to say ..."it's a preference." That's too simple. But I guess you already knew that.
If you'd really like to know why I entered into the world of BDSM & made it my home, you or anyone can pm me & I'll answer your questions in great detail. BUT, my answers, I'm sure, are totally different from the next person you ask.

I think this is why I'm taking offense to this. You state in the next post you speak in generalizations. Yes, but porn is such a vast space to make generalizations about. There's so many different avenues & most here, are lumping porn into the "it's bad" category when what most are doing are clicking a button & viewing it.
I'm saying that there are people out there that have many many different tastes & fetishes. I do not understand them all, but I don't turn my nose up & say wow you're gross for liking that or that is disgusting! I'm trying to learn about the inner workings of a person & what has created this. What do most people generalize as their answer in porn being violent?
"Well they're doing this Bec of their abusive past or MH issues." Yes this may be this case for some, I agree, but I am guessing not for all.

In June 2012, the author P. D. James was making 1.34 million a wk in book sales. Some would call her trilogy soft, fluff erotica & it was somewhat trashed in the BDSM community Bec of its many inaccuracies. But there was a reason for these sales.
People are curious. Is it something the market could bare? Obviously. Was it considered violent??? There's that question again.
I guess that depends on the person reading it.
Everyone has a different perspective & I want them to have it. Not shame them for having it.

I just wanted to add in, before someone gets the wrong idea about poor P.D. James....old English woman who wrote novels like 'The Children of Men' and has an abundance of talent and skill.

I believe you are referring to E.L James. Young English author who wrote the Fifty Shades trilogy, with a very disturbed idea of what BDSM is, and the writing ability of a fifth grader.

Patagonia · Aug 22, 2016 at 01:15 PM

Yes!!! Lol. Thank you for the correction & I think 5th grade is too high!

shakespeare47 · 06:22 PM

I have to admit, I'm lightening up about sex a little (I grew up in a very conservative church). Sex still seems kinds of weird and embarrassing, and fun, and sexy and exciting and private. I have very conservative attitudes towards morality and sex and affairs, and yet, I kinda like some porn, even though it's a guilty pleasure, and sometimes I think I'm done w/ it because I think it may have harmed me in some ways....

Anyway... I obviously have a lot of conflicted and complex thoughts about porn and it's place in my life and in our society.

But, as my example of driving vs porn demonstrates, I think it's not quite correct to see considerations about the existence of porn as just being a matter of considering the problems it causes. I think it's more about the fact that sex and ideas about morality are very important to us.

Artchic528 · Aug 22, 2016 at 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patagonia

Yes!!! Lol. Thank you for the correction & I think 5th grade is too high!

Speaking of "That" book series....

But getting back on the topic. Porn isn't the problem. That's like saying that alcohol causes Alcoholism. It doesn't. It's not the alcohol that causes alcoholism, but either a genetic predisposition, a bout of MI that may drive a person to self medicate with it, or any number of other reasons, really. To blame the outcome of a problem isn't the answer. However, it didn't stop America from outright blaming it nonetheless.

The American People felt so strongly against alcohol, so sure that it was the "root of all evil", that at one point they managed to get the sale and distribution of it barred nation wide for a while, aka the Prohibition. It didn't stop people from going underground and creating Speak Easies, where you could drink to your heart's content, and hoarding various bottles of alcohol in their homes. Eventually, the government realized what foolishness the Prohibition was, realizing people will go ahead and drink regardless of what happens, and it was better to control the sale and distribution, taxing it to help feed nationwide budget. Thus, Prohibition was repealed.

The same can be said of Porn and those addicted to it. It's not the porn in and of itself that is the problem, but the people who abuse the usage of it to the point of addiction for whatever reason. It's not going to be banned and if it were, hypothetically, sales of it will still happen underground, in various "Speak Easies" for it.

Thus, it's better and more productive to treat the cause of the addiction, rather than ban and make illegal what one might be addicted to.

Patagonia · Aug 22, 2016 at 03:43 PM

Luv it! George Takei is brilliant. Thanks!

smartiesparty · Aug 23, 2016 at 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artchic528

Speaking of "That" book series....

But getting back on the topic. Porn isn't the problem. That's like saying that alcohol causes Alcoholism. It doesn't. It's not the alcohol that causes alcoholism, but either a genetic predisposition, a bout of MI that may drive a person to self medicate with it, or any number of other reasons, really. To blame the outcome of a problem isn't the answer. However, it didn't stop America from outright blaming it nonetheless.

The American People felt so strongly against alcohol, so sure that it was the "root of all evil", that at one point they managed to get the sale and distribution of it barred nation wide for a while, aka the Prohibition. It didn't stop people from going underground and creating Speak Easies, where you could drink to your heart's content, and hoarding various bottles of alcohol in their homes. Eventually, the government realized what foolishness the Prohibition was, realizing people will go ahead and drink regardless of what happens, and it was better to control the sale and distribution, taxing it to help feed nationwide budget. Thus, Prohibition was repealed.

The same can be said of Porn and those addicted to it. It's not the porn in and of itself that is the problem, but the people who abuse the usage of it to the point of addiction for whatever reason. It's not going to be banned and if it were, hypothetically, sales of it will still happen underground, in various "Speak Easies" for it.

Thus, it's better and more productive to treat the cause of the addiction, rather than ban and make illegal what one might be addicted to.

Maybe then we should also make every prescription drug over the counter, because the problem is the person, not the drug

Comparing it to the prohibition isn't very logical, and alcohol has a direct effect on a person's mind. Porn has an effect that's creeping and most people don't notice directly when they fall into an addiction because 'everyone's doing it', as I said before.
Most people don't know the cause of their addiction. Maybe they blocked it out of their mind, and don't want to face it. We need to stop pretending like porn is only a problem for very mentally unstable people.
Mentally healthy people can abuse porn if they are going through a rough time, too. And most of them certainly do not want to be seen as someone having a problem and to admit it. And they certainly do not want to seek help, because they think the problem isn't a problem.
You make it sound like you have to be severely troubled beforehand in order to become addicted to it, which isn't the case.

You could apply youor logic to pretty much everything. Illegal drugs, guns, etc etc.

shakespeare47 · 09:45 AM

Consider this. X is an action that people perform in the real world, and on film. When people watch people doing X, they tend to think "wow, I guess X is acceptable... maybe I should try it myself!"

Basically, by watching people do X on film, it changes our brains, it changes our attitudes towards X.

Should we ban all X's from film? Should we ban all films that contain X?

Y's are also actions that people perform in real life, and on film. When people watch people doing Y, they tend to think "wow, I guess Y is acceptable... maybe I should try it myself!"

Basically, by watching people do Y on film, it changes our brains, it changes our attitudes towards Y.

But the difference between X and Y is that X is morally neutral, while Y could offend some people's ideas about morality.

Should we ban all Y's from film? Should we ban all films that contain Y?

What are some examples of X's and what are some examples of Y's?

Aug 23, 2016 at 10:24 AM

I see and respect where you're going, but the X's and Y's are a little abstract. Compare instead a vintage 1970's porn loop depicting painless, mutually-satisfying sex between consenting and fully-pubed partners with modern exploitative porn depicting violence, epidemiologically dangerous sexual practices, domination, humiliation and/or or sadism, or, in the nuclear option, a snuff film.

As propaganda, yes, these media are conditioning viewers as to the appropriateness and cultural acceptability of the depicted practices. If watching it turns them on, you're selectively triggering sexual stimulation cues in their psyches, and someone who pleasures themselves to images of grisly mutilation is lost forever, but it doesn't seem reasonable to condemn the entire spectrum of 'porn', from well-meaning copulation by mutual consent to a bloodsoaked orgy with a crime-scene-cleanup bill and a body count.

PenguinExMachina · Aug 23, 2016 at 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartiesparty

Maybe then we should also make every prescription drug over the counter, because the problem is the person, not the drug

Comparing it to the prohibition isn't very logical, and alcohol has a direct effect on a person's mind. Porn has an effect that's creeping and most people don't notice directly when they fall into an addiction because 'everyone's doing it', as I said before.
Most people don't know the cause of their addiction. Maybe they blocked it out of their mind, and don't want to face it. We need to stop pretending like porn is only a problem for very mentally unstable people.
Mentally healthy people can abuse porn if they are going through a rough time, too. And most of them certainly do not want to be seen as someone having a problem and to admit it. And they certainly do not want to seek help, because they think the problem isn't a problem.
You make it sound like you have to be severely troubled beforehand in order to become addicted to it, which isn't the case.

You could apply youor logic to pretty much everything. Illegal drugs, guns, etc etc.

Your prescription drug - OTC drug example is pretty illogical. Many drugs have some pretty major interactions with each other. If I'm on Prozac, but then I decide I need some Tramadol, well...if they are all OTC and without a prescription necessary, it could get pretty ugly.

It has been shown, in many cases, that making something less available does not help. In fact, the harder it is for people to get things that are addictive/stimulating, the more they will try to get them. Like during the Prohibition. Or with illegal drugs. Or, for some reason, guns. Even consider our country's problems with sex. Abstinence-only education has been proven to not work. It is not the thing, it is the people. I don't mean that in a bad way. It's not that we are severely troubled beforehand. We are human. And there are numerous factors that come into play. Addictive personalities, mental illness, conditioning, social factors, neurological receptors, etc.

Maybe it's that whole 'the less we can have it, the more we want it'. That, 'we want what we can't have'. Who knows. Either way, the more we blame a thing like porn, alcohol, food, etc, for our issues, the less likely we will take responsibility and be able to help ourselves. I could blame something, let's say sex, until I am blue in the face...doesn't change my problems. Without sex, they'd still be my problems. You know why? Because it was that way with alcohol. Just like it was the drugs before that. And food before that. And then once the thing that was causing my issues left, I moved on to something else.

shakespeare47 · Aug 23, 2016 at 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lefty the Salesman

but it doesn't seem reasonable to condemn the entire spectrum of 'porn', from well-meaning copulation by mutual consent to a bloodsoaked orgy with a crime-scene-cleanup bill and a body count.

I think you might be missing the point. I'm not asking anyone to condemn anything.

I'm asking people to think about the real differences between X's and Y's. And it's not abstract if people choose their own X's and Y's to plug in and compare.

Aug 23, 2016 at 05:36 PM

I may very well have missed the point.

Patagonia · Aug 23, 2016 at 06:27 PM

Lefty
What is " well meaning copulation?"

What does "someone who pleasures themselves to images of grisly mutilation is lost forever..." That mean?

And again with the pube hair? Really?

Artchic528 · Aug 23, 2016 at 06:42 PM

I just want to clarify that a true "snuff film" hasn't ever been found. What you've most likely seen is just clever (or not so clever) acting. It's really just one of those Urban Legends that goes around from time to time.

However, a lot of the more aggressive porn does result in injury from the actresses. Usually from having a lot of stuff shoved inside them (either hole) at once. I've seen a documentary where the actresses use a specific doctor who was a former adult movie actress herself and doesn't ask too many questions about the injuries. She just doctors them up, takes blood samples to test for STDs and lets the girls go on their way.

Is it exploitation when the actresses get hurt? Well, IMHO, they went into the gig knowing full well what was to happen, and though they might not particularly enjoy doing some of the stuff that is portrayed, they do get paid in the end. Maybe the exploitation isn't so much the acts they are doing, but the little amount of money the receive for preforming said acts.

But that's just the more aggressive porn. I don't really watch that stuff. I prefer more gentle and sensual porn, and believe it or not, that's out there too. Even with a guy in it. I've seen it with my own eyes. Maybe it's not as popular as having the guy jackhammer the girl for a few minutes then shoot his load off on her, but it's rising in poplarity. Why? Because more and more women are beginning to watch porn and want to see sensual, and tender acts. Not all women might prefer this though, so there is always the aggressive stuff they can watch.

Is the more aggressive stuff really degrading? I don't know, I just know that I don't like porn that has a dominate male, and submissive female, or even the kind that looks like borderline rape, because I'm not into that sort of thing. That's the beauty of porn, there's a genre for every taste. It's very broad and diverse and caters to every kink, fetish and desire you can imagine, and some you can't. To label every single bit of it with such a broad statement such as "All porn is bad. It ruins relationships" is very generalizing of anyone to make.

That's my two cents.

07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patagonia

Lefty
What is " well meaning copulation?"

What does "someone who pleasures themselves to images of grisly mutilation is lost forever..." That mean?

And again with the pube hair? Really?

Patagonia, would it make you feel better if I steered clear of your porn thread? I can do that for you.

Nah, I'll take the time to pedantically explain my responses, as if to a child.

'Well-meaning copulation' is another way of saying 'consensual sex'. Get it?

"Someone who pleasures themselves to images of grisly mutilation is lost forever" is coherent English, probably above your pay grade. If you don't understand it, I'm not sure that I can help you.

Whatever your problem is with pubes, I don't share it. Your prudishness about the mention of pubic hair in a thread about porn is laughable.

If you require further clarification on anything else I post, please send a private message and I'll do my best to help.

Patagonia · Aug 23, 2016 at 07:53 PM

Lefty,
Very nice of you to ask, but This is not my original post.

I asked you to explain 2 sentences that are confusing to me in your last post so I can understand it better.

I also state I don't get the pube hair comments, again, relating to the subject.
So, can you explain this so I understand?

Patagonia · Aug 23, 2016 at 09:39 PM

Lefty
I sincerely apologize for my preschool questions to be followed by your degrading responses.
It brings the original post down, intellectually in my opinion.

You talked of an "elephant in the room" on pube hairs! Was anyone else discussing that?

This post WAS about how porn effects couples, partners & humans in general. It's the original post view that I was trying to stay true to. So when you asked about it I posted that maybe it could be another post? I didn't wanto disrespect the OP thoughts.
My apologies.

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Patagonia Grand Magnate Member Since Sep 2013 Location: In my own little world, NO trespassing! Posts: 4,660 10 77 hugs given	Aug 20, 2016 at 03:49 PM #64 No way, I thought this was a great discussion! __________________ "Doubt is like dye. Once it spreads into the fabric of excuses you've woven, you'll never get rid of the stain." Jodi Picoult
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Patagonia Grand Magnate Member Since Sep 2013 Location: In my own little world, NO trespassing! Posts: 4,660 10 77 hugs given	Aug 22, 2016 at 01:15 PM #66 Yes!!! Lol. Thank you for the correction & I think 5th grade is too high! __________________ "Doubt is like dye. Once it spreads into the fabric of excuses you've woven, you'll never get rid of the stain." Jodi Picoult
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Patagonia Grand Magnate Member Since Sep 2013 Location: In my own little world, NO trespassing! Posts: 4,660 10 77 hugs given	Aug 22, 2016 at 03:43 PM #69 Luv it! George Takei is brilliant. Thanks! __________________ "Doubt is like dye. Once it spreads into the fabric of excuses you've woven, you'll never get rid of the stain." Jodi Picoult
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Anonymous37971 Guest Posts: n/a	Aug 23, 2016 at 05:36 PM #75 I may very well have missed the point.
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Patagonia Grand Magnate Member Since Sep 2013 Location: In my own little world, NO trespassing! Posts: 4,660 10 77 hugs given	Aug 23, 2016 at 06:27 PM #76 Lefty What is " well meaning copulation?" What does "someone who pleasures themselves to images of grisly mutilation is lost forever..." That mean? And again with the pube hair? Really? __________________ "Doubt is like dye. Once it spreads into the fabric of excuses you've woven, you'll never get rid of the stain." Jodi Picoult
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