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Old Nov 20, 2023 at 03:08 PM
  #1
 
I hope I can ask these questions and get frank, logical replies. Iím trying not to step on anybodyís toes or hurt anybody. I speak as a woman who 1.) although married and monogamous with a biological man, also has same sex attraction, and 2.) is the mother of a non-binary person. Unfortunately, for reasons that have nothing to do with gender and sexuality, I donít have the kind of relationship with my oldest child that I can ask this.

My previous partner before my husband (weíve been married fifteen years) was a non-surgical transgender man, female-bodied but presenting and identifying as male. He legally changed his name and used he/him pronouns. I was in a relationship with him for two years. When I tried to ask him these questions, all it did was make him cry. I certainly didnít mean to do that, and I hope nobody here is hurt by anything I say. Unfortunately, heís not available to try asking again more tactfully. He passed away six years ago.

My questions are these: In todayís society, does it really matter whatís between someoneís legs? What are men allowed to do nowadays that women are not, and vice versa? If someone is born with male parts, is it really necessary to go all the way to hormone treatment and a radical change in physical anatomy before being allowed to answer to Gloria, grow long hair, wear dresses and makeup, and carry a purse? Conversely, must someone with two X chromosomes be surgically and hormonally altered before being allowed to adopt the name of George, get a high and tight haircut, work in construction, and sit casually sprawled out in an armchair?

Yes, I remember as a child being told to behave myself and ďact like a ladyĒ if I spoke in a high-spirited voice heavy on slang, or sat in some posture other than bolt upright with my knees glued together. My brothers were not similarly reined in.

Or does it run deeper than this? To me, outside of reproduction, the difference between genders seems so superficial and arbitrary that there doesnít seem to be any point to changing what you were born with.

If I have hurt or offended you, I am truly sorry. You can go ahead and eviscerate me if you want.
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Old Nov 20, 2023 at 06:45 PM
  #2
 
I have a trans woman friend who changed her name and is undergoing hormonal treatment (I must say, very successfully; she also did laser hair removal on the face with remarkably good results). She explained to me how important it is to "pass" as your chosen gender. So if a man wears dresses and makeup, the man would still not pass as a woman for a number of reasons including his deep voice. Hormone treatment increases the chances of passing as your chosen, self-identified gender.

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Old Nov 20, 2023 at 06:48 PM
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Iíd think people do hormones and surgeries because they care about that stuff, I doubt they do it for the society. I agree that society shouldnít care. Like I donít care how someone walking on the street looks or whatís in their pants.

I do care how I look though. If someone feels they are a woman, they usually want to look like one and itís hard to accomplish without hormonal changes and often surgeries. Sure one can carry a purse and wear a dress and make up but they might not be happy looking like a man in a dress with a purse and make up (thatís exactly how theyíll look) if they identify as a woman. Now if they are a man who likes to cross dress or dresses as a woman for other reasons, then sure they might not care for hormones and might be ok the way they are. But thatís not who many transgendered people are

As about whatís between oneís legs. I think itís important for many people for the whole bunch of reasons (even as mundane as being able to wear swim suit on a beach or certain clothes fitting right and then more serious stuff like having certain kind of intimacy etc) . Of course not everyone would care but I am sure many do.

And from what I heard, transgender people often dislike their genitalia and want them to match their gender, itís understandable. . Heck I am not transgendered and am a biological woman. I sure donít want penis.
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Old Nov 21, 2023 at 07:01 PM
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These answers make sense. Thank you. Iím asking for education, and I am receiving it.

The thing about my former relationship is, even without hormones and surgery, he passed very well. He had enough facial hair to need to shave regularly, and his voice was deep enough to sound masculine. Only with no clothes on did he ever appear to be anything other than an adult male. Strangers didnít question him when he used the menís restroom. And nobody ever considered us a same-sex couple. As far as they could tell, we were one man and one woman.

If someone ever did accidentally say ďmaíamĒ instead of ďsir,Ē it was undoubtedly an innocent slip of the tongue. Maybe theyíve said ďmaíamĒ a hundred times in the past hour, and it just came out wrong. Iíve heard it happen to plenty of cisgender men, and itís no statement about their masculinity. But if my ex heard one hint of ďyes mó I mean yes sir,Ē he showed no mercy. He did everything short of setting fire to something.

I, by comparison and contrast, am dark-haired and light-skinned. I also have enough hair on my upper lip (his was also on his chin) that I need to shave it several times a week, or else I will have a visible mustache. I tried bleaching it once, but as it kept growing, it started curling over my lip like a manís mustache, and it was no less visible. Iíve always been self-conscious about having hair on my face. It makes me feel less than feminine. But my exís son, himself a gay man, assured me I couldnít pass for a man even if I grew it all the way out. That made me feel better. The only times in my life I have ever wished I were a man, sexuality was not the issue. Male privilege was. Which my ex understood perfectly.
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Old Nov 21, 2023 at 07:54 PM
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By the way, given my previous examples, I feel a need to point out: I see no reason why someone with two X chromosomes should not be allowed to work in construction, have a high and tight hair cut, or sit casually sprawled out in an armchair, even if her name remains Gloria and she identifies as female. Nor should George, who identifies as male, not be allowed to grow his hair long, put on a dress and makeup, and carry a purse if he so desires. The point being made here, if Iím understanding correctly, is that there is a difference between doing things more common to the opposite gender, and actually identifying as the opposite gender. George in a dress is still George in a dress, and thatís OK if thatís what he wants, but Gloria in a dress wants to be a woman through and through. Do I have it?
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Old Nov 21, 2023 at 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Albatross2008 View Post
By the way, given my previous examples, I feel a need to point out: I see no reason why someone with two X chromosomes should not be allowed to work in construction, have a high and tight hair cut, or sit casually sprawled out in an armchair, even if her name remains Gloria and she identifies as female. Nor should George, who identifies as male, not be allowed to grow his hair long, put on a dress and makeup, and carry a purse if he so desires. The point being made here, if Iím understanding correctly, is that there is a difference between doing things more common to the opposite gender, and actually identifying as the opposite gender. George in a dress is still George in a dress, and thatís OK if thatís what he wants, but Gloria in a dress wants to be a woman through and through. Do I have it?
Yes I think you got it. Some men wear make up and dress feminine but they absolutely donít think they are women or have a desire to become one. Being transgendered is very different .

As about what people are allowed to do. Maybe you live in a very conservative area but in my experience none of those things are prohibited. Women work in construction and men wear long hair. And all that other stuff
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Old Nov 21, 2023 at 08:21 PM
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Grew up in the Southern USA during the late 1960ís through the 1970ís. Quite conservative.
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Old Nov 21, 2023 at 11:52 PM
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Grew up in the Southern USA during the late 1960ís through the 1970ís. Quite conservative.
But things surely changed? I was born in the 60s too but the world changed so much since then.
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Old Nov 22, 2023 at 03:34 AM
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But things surely changed? I was born in the 60s too but the world changed so much since then.
I don't know. The South changes much more slowly than the rest of the country does. When my brother came out, in the 1980's, there were some relatives he never could tell, and we couldn't mention in front of. His partner was his "coworker" or his "roommate" to those relatives. Even in the 2000's a lot of people in the South would look strangely at a man wearing earrings, and think a woman's place is in the kitchen.

And don't get me started on my family's racism.
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Old Nov 22, 2023 at 05:23 AM
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I don't know. The South changes much more slowly than the rest of the country does. When my brother came out, in the 1980's, there were some relatives he never could tell, and we couldn't mention in front of. His partner was his "coworker" or his "roommate" to those relatives. Even in the 2000's a lot of people in the South would look strangely at a man wearing earrings, and think a woman's place is in the kitchen.

And don't get me started on my family's racism.
I agree. Well yeah in the 80s. Not too many people were accepting or understanding in the 80s and then with the HIV thing. Lots of misconception

Many families are still backwards and you canít come out even now. Not only in the South. And the whole concept of someone being transgender is new to many people and is often misunderstood.

Itís certainly could still be rough for LGBTQ anywhere you go. Racism and antisemitism are alive and well too, sadly.

I just meant that many things you mention that should be allowed are very much allowed and arenít uncommon anymore, generally speaking. Not saying they are common everywhere. There are places in the world and in the US that are still behind.

Several of car mechanics in my dealership are women and there are women now on road construction crews, more everywhere. Ton of guys of any age wear long hair. Several of our male students wear make up, heels and purses. No one cares. Things are moving ahead. And I am not in any kind of advanced place. Regular old Midwest.

I hope things will change in the South too. But sadly it looks like things are going backwards not forward
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