[seeker1950]

I am speaking of romantic relationships, and the failure thereof. I have realized, belatedly, after a lifetime of failures, long recoveries, that my lack of self-esteem is the core issue in my poor choices. I could go into the long history here, but will refrain. It has evolved, however, that now I don't trust my judgment regarding relationships with men, and choose to be alone rather than risking another chaotic experience!
Can anyone else relate!
At the same time, I am building a positive existence finally, with this knowledge of my foibles and weakness in judgment. I have a good job, a challenging educational pursuit, my daughter and twin grandsons, a large pet family, and my little home which is a challenging improvement project.
I do still grieve over my failure in the relationship department but not to the extent that I want to risk another failure!
Patty

oh, yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. i was stripped of it, by ex, and have been alone 17 years now.............xoxoxo pat

[Irine]

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seeker1950 said:
Can anyone else relate!
At the same time, I am building a positive existence finally, with this knowledge of my foibles and weakness in judgment. I have a good job, a challenging educational pursuit, my daughter and twin grandsons, a large pet family, and my little home which is a challenging improvement project.
I do still grieve over my failure in the relationship department but not to the extent that I want to risk another failure!
Patty

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well i see good things here and i think that your choice to be alone can be temporary.

I have been divorced since 1995. I have raised my sons on my own (with extreme help from family) and their father did not partake in the parenting scene. I have dated and was engaged at one point, but, it seemed that the men I dated did not seem confident when they realized that I was strong and intelligent. They loved to be needed. If they saw that I was independent, they figured that was good enough reason to end a relationship.

Since then, I have given up on any desire to be with a man. my cynicism has grown and I am beginning to feel that males are insecure and childish. I know that there are many mature men and some are devoted to relationships but do they feel threatened if the woman earns more, learns more or is promoted more than they are? Please help me. I would like to keep my optimism that some men are not threatened by these things.

[seeker1950]

Lady and Ingrid...
While I realize I lack self-esteem, I have built a life for myself sans men! And, Ingrid, I too am quite independent and well-educated. As you say, this does seem to play into the dynamics of the relatiohships.
Patty

I have to try to lose my cynicism or at least appease it slightly. ;-)

I now tell men that I only want a friendship. It seems to work better that way. I fear that my cynicism might be the crusher of relationships more than the men (not excluding their influence).

Or is this just another episode of women's self guilt patterns ha ha.

Ingrid

[seeker1950]

Ingrid....I am cynical too, Truly! I would say, though, that I am not "bitter," while being cynical...and there's a difference.
Like you, I've never expected a man to "take care" of me. I would think a man would shy away from a woman who needed taking care of!...wouldn't you?!!!

I've never been a clinging type, but I have deigned to question...and therein seems the "rub," as Shakespeare would say....And I questioned tactfully and even gently! I gathered from this that communication was a real issue, and, yes, cynicism has developed.
I think I should PM you.
Patty

independent women who speak up for themselves are called "*****es". when i bought and sold cattle, the men around me were a wreck everytime i outdid them on a lot......men who do that are called "good business men or whatever">>>>>>>>

i told an electrician one time how many plugs to put in a room and he said he wouldn't do it. i told him that it was my money, my home and my time and i would help him find his way out. he badmouthed me, but never told what led up to me firing him.....

i'm not knocking all men, but this business of not being able to handle independence needs to be gotten over with and soon......this is 2007.....

Yes, I hope they realize it soon also. I don't want to sound sexist, but, it seems that with men, I am just mothering another teenage boy. I already have two from my first marriage lol.

[Wants2Fly]

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fayerody said:
independent women who speak up for themselves are called "*****es".

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wooo boy -- I remember telling a friend way back in the 1970s that she could either be a ***** or a doormat because that was the only two definitions society had for us.

She divorced him. Told me that chose in favor of *****.

After my first divorce, I was single for 12 years. I fully expect, having been abandoned in late middle life after a 15-year-run, to be alone until I die -- unless I get very, very lucky.

IMHO, most men are needy. I know I've said this elsewhere in relationships. I see widows here in S. FL who fall over themselves to entice the new widower -- make him food, darn his socks, do his errands.

Smart, strong women are intimidating to a lot of men.

I'm not that lonely.

If I had my druthers and enough money, I wouldn't bat an eyelash to buy myself a polite, good-looking "boy toy" by which I do not mean jailbait or even a guy in his 20s, but someone 10 or 20 years younger than I, which still puts him around 40-ish at the youngest.

Patty, it seems to me that you have a lot of self-knowledge, intelligence, and strength. If you made choices based on low-self-esteem in the past, isn't it possible that you've changed and grown and are different person now?

[Wants2Fly]

I apologize for posting twice. Had to leave the computer, and this is nagging at me, Seeker. I've noticed you posting on the theme of later-life relationships quite a bit. There seems to be something here that is concerning you a good deal . . .

Is it that you want another relationship, but don't trust yourself and/or aren't sure about how to go about getting what you want?

[seeker1950]

I know, Wants! It bothers me that i am thinking about this lately! And very perceptive of you to notice this!
One thing that seems to be contributing to this is that on my own, I have been breaking my 40 mg. Paxil in half for over a month now, since I realized that on this amt. for three years, (on one form or another for 15 years, getting it "upped" periodically) I've become apathetic about most things...kind of numb. Though I wouldn't say I'm depressed on this lesser amt of antidepressant, I am seeing things with more clarity and feeling the need to talk about it! I even had a long involved dream about it this morning, and couldn't wake up till things were resolved, sort of! Woke up exhausted.
I guess I'm working thru things i've ignored for most of my life.
Thanks,
Patty

I will be baking this evening. Woo hoo!

I remember a history professor I had who majored in Social History. He taught us the changing attitudes of society and the interesting thing was that originally, men agreed to do the labour and hard work as a symbol of admiration and praise to women. Women were encouraged to remain in charge of the private domain because their skills were better influences on the moral code of society.

Once men discovered the profits earned by their labours and the monetary exchange systems came into play, they began to develop their own standards of social values. Because their work earned money and ours did not, results were not enough. That was when the values of gender roles changed .

Since then, it has been a battle of the genders. Oh well, we all want strength in numbers. A partner is better than lone efforts. We just need to agree as to what roles are best met by skills and society has to place better value on non-masculine traits. (Figure the odds) lol

[seeker1950]

Interesting post, Ingrid. During my 20 year marriage, I was a virtual "slave" when not earning income. I could not spend any money without his permission, and that always involved debate, in which I lost. I knew other women like me, staying home, taking care of a child in infancy, who had credit cards and money to spend freely, but not me! I began earning money doing signwork and freelance artwork, also teaching painting classes, just to have some meager spending money of my own, and you can bet I set it up under a separate checking account of my own. After my daughter was older, in elementary school, I achieved my teacher certification and became a middle school art teacher, again maintaining my own money. I often marvel at women my age who acquiese to the husbands who control the money...I guess because of my conditioning while married, I can't abide it, and even feel sorry for them!
Patty

i've been concerned, patty, for a few weeks about your issues concerning relationships.

here's my deal. either i'm in or i'm not.

either i want one bad enough to look or, i don't.

if i'm not, i'm going to take all that creative time and run with it.........i hope youre' able to do the same, love you, pat

[seeker1950]

You're right, Pat! Thanks for reminding me what i'm about! I spent the whole afternoon working with my 3D fiber mounting and using my time constructively! This is all because of your comment about time for creativity!
Love
Patty

Seeker1950:

The social history also shows that since women entered the workforce in post-WWII, women's skills are now being rewarded by monetary exchange and being self supportive, discourages a sense of need as it was traditionally seen (monetarily). Males are now seeking other ways to determine what women need and want.

This is quite a threat to male roles. Some take it confidently while others react to social influences defensively. My last partner still saw his role as being the provider of money and now that I am soon to finish university and am employable and "educated" in society's eyes, he felt I wouldn't need him anymore.

The one role that males are still needed for is reproduction and that is why physical attributes are so psychologically important to males. That is one need that society hasn't changed. Even with artificial means of fertilization, the egg and sperm still need eachother.

[Wants2Fly]

Having spent so many years -- more than a decade -- without an LTR when I was much younger and prettier than I am now -- and when I was actively circulating and looking -- for me the decision isn't as easy as, "Either I'm in or I'm not."

Even if I decide, "Okay, I'm in, I'm going shopping," I couldn't possibly spend all my non-work time actively looking, circulating, dating.

For one thing, I'm an introvert. I'm always going to need alone-time just for me.

Second, I can circulate all I want to and, especially in mid-to-late life, there is just not a lot of product on the shelves. What's there may be seriously flawed -- the multiple divorced guys, the widower who is worshipping his late wife, the needy guy who needs you to wash his socks, cook his meals, and listen to his jokes over and over.

In the end, doing things that feed and nourish the inner me make me the kind of person who can be in a healthy relationship.

Right now, I'm out of that game. Oh sure, I fantasize about having a nice someone who loves me and who I love. But I'm a pragmatist, and I know what the cost will be, and I'm not willing or able to pay it right now. And I am not youthful and pretty enough to have guys beating down my door, begging me to reconsider, like in the old days. And if someone tried, I'd probably only say something sarcastic and cynical, due to my current POV re: males my age.

But enough about me. Patty, I think you need to trust yourself more to make a good choice if this is what you want. That's my $.02 probably worth a lot less in an economy where a good cup of coffee costs five bucks.

I totally agree with you Wants2Fly. It is difficult to find a man who has the qualities I like to see. I made a humorous observation on a dating website. All of the men who are available and looking on these websites fit the description of what I don't want. Almost all of these men have those traits. So.....

if all of the available men are like this (contain these common interests), doesn't that tell them that women don't want that type of guy? Otherwise so many of them would not be looking for women. ;-)

[seeker1950]

Wants...You've really hit the nail on the head regarding men in my (our) age group! In fact...I've dated and even tried relationships with most of the "flawed" types you've described so accurately! I have a few to add to the "flawed" list: Health issues, as I know about this first hand from having spent two years as a nursemaid to a man who deceived me about his health condition; extreme stinginess with money after being burned in divorce (or maybe they were always that way); and adult children who watch dad's assets like hawks, not wanting a new woman to have access to it! The list could go on and one...
And, oh, I have to mention the double standard of appearance: a woman must be thin, fit and attractive even if the man is pot-bellied and bald! There are the "churchy" types and the barflies...neither of which I'd want anything to do with, nor have anything in common....
The list goes on.
Anyway, I just want to add that posting about this and getting such good feedback from all of you has helped me regain my centeredness!
Love and thanks!
Patty