It's quite common for survivors of childhood sexual abuse to become promiscuous later in life. There are reasons. Here are mine:

One, when you are accustomed to sexual abuse, you simply don't know any other way. When I began dating, I assumed sex was typical and expected, each and every time the boy and the girl were alone. I didn't know there were any non-sexual activities that were done in that context.

Two, it served as a validation. The stereotype is that only attractive people are desirable to others, and ugly people either pay for sex or remain virgins because nobody wants them. I considered myself ugly, since in high school I was a size 14, and I am now a size 24. So, every time I had sex, I could think to myself, "Now see? I'm not so fat and ugly after all. THAT guy wanted me." I know now that appearance has very little to do with it. Those guys just wanted to add another notch to their handle. It gave them more bragging rights in the locker room about how many girls they'd bedded. Still, I must say it offends me very much whenever I hear a woman who, shall we say, does not look like an actress or a model, described as "not beautiful, but (bleep)able." This is *exactly* the kind of attitude that sent me the message, I'd better consider it a compliment to be "offered" sex, and not turn it down, because there are some women who couldn't get any if they wanted it.

Three, I am not good at social interaction. I try to take cues from others, but it has led me into some dangerous situations. Since I've been married this has not been a problem, but when single, it was a tremendous problem. I could be in a room full of mixed company, everybody's flirting, double entendres and innuendos are flying all over the place. It's fun, so I join in. Later I am cornered by a man who makes it clear what he wants from me, and when I resist, I get, "Listen, babe, you were the one coming on to me." Since the fact is I am NOT good with social cues, I have to wonder whether I did send the wrong signal, or whether this guy is just some creepy perv taking advantage. In any case, whether or not I escape from the situation, if I tell anybody later, the "fat chicks don't get laid" stereotype comes in again. I am most likely to hear, "Oh, come on. A whole room full of hot chicks, and he goes after YOU? Tell me another one."

Honestly I'm not sure what I'm looking for here. Venting? Validation? Just comment as you see fit. Thanks.

To help with responses, I have searched through my confusion and come up with these questions:

1. If a man in the situation above says, "Hey babe, you were the one coming on to me," does this mean that she gave the wrong signal, or that he is trying to take advantage? I have since been educated enough to know that a woman has the right to change her mind from yes to no at any point, but basically who is at fault here when this happens?

2. Do you suppose there are sexual predators who single out the "less beautiful," the overweight or unpopular girls/women? Is there some kind of "helpful hints" guide that says to select a "fat chick" because nobody would ever believe her?

[SoupDragon]

I can really relate to some of the things you have written - my father always told me how ugly I was and I was also aware of pornography in the house, even our daily newspaper had topless beautiful women in it. So I think I grew up with a distorted image of male / female roles and relationships. Therefore when I found out how I could be "desirable" to men, I placed myself in vulnerable situations and I guess others at the time may have viewed this as promiscuity. I have some things to work through on this as even at the time I hated these experiences, but at the time I guess they were fulfilling some sort of need for me otherwise I wouldn't keep repeatng the behaviour.

However when I look back and think about the people who "took advantage" of me, I do think they spotted me in the crowd as not someone fantastically attractive and someone they wanted to be with out of love and care, but someone who was vulnerable and whom they could get into bed.

I am starting to blame myself less therefore, as I know in the same situation I would not take advantage of someone who was vulnerable, something in my soul would see it as deepky wrong. So why didn't they?

[Sannah]

I think these perverts can read people well and they can tell who they can get away with these behaviors with. The way you hold your head, your eye contact, etc., they are clues to if you stand up for yourself or not.

When they said "hey, you were coming on to me" I think it is just a manipulative line to get their way. They will say anything to get what they want. Not the kind of people to be around.

I have just been informed that there is a book out, marketed toward men, on how to get women in bed with them. (Not how to find love, but how to get sex; major difference there. When I was single and dating, my biggest road block was those guys who kept offering me sex. I was looking for love, which is much harder to find.) One technique specifically taught in the book is exactly what I said: Target the woman who is less conventionally attractive, and then tell her she should be flattered by the advances, because after all, most men wouldn't go near her, and anyway, she was coming on to you. Shame will convince her to say yes.

Normally I am not in favor of book banning, but THAT book--

It's the disbelief that really gets me. We've all heard the jokes:

"Fat people need love too. They just have to pay for it." (Besides what I said above about love and sex not being the same thing, this is the stereotype preyed upon by those "you should feel lucky I'm making the moves on you" sharks.)

"The girls all get prettier at closing time." (Not only is this a classic country song, but the same attitude is expressed in the slang term "beer goggles." Be drunk enough, and you'll lower your standards so far you might even accidentally bed a fat chick.)

Or beyond jokes, there is the perfectly serious, accusatory attitude of, "What do you mean, the star football player tried to rape you? HE doesn't have to rape anybody!" (Assuming that because he's such a hunk, any girl on a date with him would immediately say yes.)

In a support group I used to attend, in another state, a man told me that in the locker room, guys put pressure on each other not to take "No" for an answer. He says they gave him a hard time for respecting "No." They would tell him, "If a girl says no, she really means try again later." They might as well advise each other in the locker room, "Just rape a fat chick. Even if she tells, nobody's going to believe her."

(If you're easily triggered, be careful with the next paragraph.)

In 2003 I was forcibly held down and raped by my daughter's (now ex, needless to say) boyfriend. The bruises on my arms from him holding me down weren't enough to arrest him. He said it was consensual, and they believed him. News flash, I said "No." That is exactly the opposite of consensual. That man was a sex addict and also felt entitled to it whenever he wanted. "No" didn't compute. I now wonder if the reason the police didn't laugh in my face altogether was the fact that he was supermorbidly obese and much bigger than I am. Otherwise, why would a fat chick claim rape? Everybody knows they're so desperate for it, they'd readily consent, and should consider themselves lucky to get it. Unless the man is really, really super fat, and that could explain why he'd have to resort to rape, because even a fat chick wouldn't consent--but no, he says she consented. Wow, she must have been really desperate, but then again, most fat chicks are. Case closed.

[Can't Stop Crying]

Originally Posted by Sannah

I think these perverts can read people well and they can tell who they can get away with these behaviors with. The way you hold your head, your eye contact, etc., they are clues to if you stand up for yourself or not.

When they said "hey, you were coming on to me" I think it is just a manipulative line to get their way. They will say anything to get what they want. Not the kind of people to be around.

I think it is not necessarily that it is a "fat chick" stigma as much as it is a vulnerability type thing. I think some are trained in zeroing in on cues on who they will be able to manipulate/take advantage of.

Originally Posted by LovebirdsFlying

It's quite common for survivors of childhood sexual abuse to become promiscuous later in life. There are reasons. Here are mine:

One, when you are accustomed to sexual abuse, you simply don't know any other way. When I began dating, I assumed sex was typical and expected, each and every time the boy and the girl were alone. I didn't know there were any non-sexual activities that were done in that context.

Two, it served as a validation. The stereotype is that only attractive people are desirable to others, and ugly people either pay for sex or remain virgins because nobody wants them. I considered myself ugly, since in high school I was a size 14, and I am now a size 24. So, every time I had sex, I could think to myself, "Now see? I'm not so fat and ugly after all. THAT guy wanted me." I know now that appearance has very little to do with it. Those guys just wanted to add another notch to their handle. It gave them more bragging rights in the locker room about how many girls they'd bedded. Still, I must say it offends me very much whenever I hear a woman who, shall we say, does not look like an actress or a model, described as "not beautiful, but (bleep)able." This is *exactly* the kind of attitude that sent me the message, I'd better consider it a compliment to be "offered" sex, and not turn it down, because there are some women who couldn't get any if they wanted it.

Three, I am not good at social interaction. I try to take cues from others, but it has led me into some dangerous situations. Since I've been married this has not been a problem, but when single, it was a tremendous problem. I could be in a room full of mixed company, everybody's flirting, double entendres and innuendos are flying all over the place. It's fun, so I join in. Later I am cornered by a man who makes it clear what he wants from me, and when I resist, I get, "Listen, babe, you were the one coming on to me." Since the fact is I am NOT good with social cues, I have to wonder whether I did send the wrong signal, or whether this guy is just some creepy perv taking advantage. In any case, whether or not I escape from the situation, if I tell anybody later, the "fat chicks don't get laid" stereotype comes in again. I am most likely to hear, "Oh, come on. A whole room full of hot chicks, and he goes after YOU? Tell me another one."

Honestly I'm not sure what I'm looking for here. Venting? Validation? Just comment as you see fit. Thanks.

Originally Posted by LovebirdsFlying

To help with responses, I have searched through my confusion and come up with these questions:

1. If a man in the situation above says, "Hey babe, you were the one coming on to me," does this mean that she gave the wrong signal, or that he is trying to take advantage? I have since been educated enough to know that a woman has the right to change her mind from yes to no at any point, but basically who is at fault here when this happens?

So many rapes/unwanted sexual attention goes unreported - and as I have been the same as you in so many ways...I know for myself, when it comes to the above situations, would you ever really report it unless it became violent? i know I wouldn't have - and there were a few nights where i felt like I did things I didn't want to/shouldn't have but didn't think i could have gotten out of. It's a horrible place to be.

2. Do you suppose there are sexual predators who single out the "less beautiful," the overweight or unpopular girls/women? Is there some kind of "helpful hints" guide that says to select a "fat chick" because nobody would ever believe her?

There are sexual predators that can tell you've already been abused (i don't know how - I've had several T's tell me this) so whether you're fat, thin, red white or blue, they go after you because you fit the profile.

[Sannah]

LBF, are you upset with yourself because of your size?

Originally Posted by Sannah

LBF, are you upset with yourself because of your size?

No, but I am upset with society for setting up an unobtainable ideal of beauty. And for perpetuating the myth that overweight people are unattractive and unlovable. I am eating right, and exercising as far as my physical disabilities will let me. I actually have lost some weight, but I will never be thin because I'm not built that way.

The part of my scenario that I really loathe is when I get that reaction of, "Oh sure. All those hot chicks in the room, and he came after YOU." Well, he came after me because he knew that even if I told, nobody would believe me.

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by LovebirdsFlying

No, but I am upset with society for setting up an unobtainable ideal of beauty. And for perpetuating the myth that overweight people are unattractive and unlovable. I am eating right, and exercising as far as my physical disabilities will let me. I actually have lost some weight, but I will never be thin because I'm not built that way.

So true.

[Open Eyes]

Well, you are right about how society sets up unabtainable goals. Just watch the critics tear away what the stars wear after the Oscars. How bad is that, what does that tell you, that even the so called perfect people cant wear the right thing.

These models do not look as good in real life as they do in those magazines either.
Between all the makeup and safety pins to place the clothing just right? Well, it is all a sham. Some of these people in real life look like skeletons and they look awful.

FYI it is now in to have a Big Butt, yeah!!! So women are going out and having implants put on those boney asses. LOL

It is time to be who you want to be. Just ask Lady GAGA. God knows what she will look like next, but that is her whole point, get rid of all the stereotypical stuff that gives people permission to critisize each other about.

Yes, whatever you are, well someone will be attracted to you for you. Not all men like skinny girls. Actually my daughter had to put on weight for her boyfriend. So there you go.

You go girl, go with you, thats what is important.

Open Eyes

[Open Eyes]

Oh and as far as that book for guys goes, about how to get a girl in bed? Well why don't you go buy it and read it so then you will know HOW TO SAY NO, to these creeps. I would never let those magazines in my house, it is not a good thing for any child boy or girl to see. And if you are dating a man, check his place out, if you see that stuff, run, because he isn't the guy for you.

If you had something happen in your past and you now realize you understood it wrong, well, you can change and let yourself learn how to be loved the right way.

Life is just too short to blame yourself for someone elses creepy wrong ideas. Its time to be you, love you, accept you and not let other's critisize you. If someone has to critisize you, than well, think about what they say, if it is meant to help you in someway, well maybe they are just a good person who likes you enough to say something. But if you are happy about what you wear and who you are then don't ask for anyones opinion, people love to find opportunities to knock others down. People make a living at it as mentioned before.

We worry about the opinions of others too much. I do that too sometimes and you know what, it is my life, not theirs. I do think about the opinions of others and if I have said something wrong, I am not perfect, I just try, just like you, and I learn too from the opinions of others. So, yes we do learn from the reactions of others. And sometimes we over react too. Life is about learning how to accept who we are and live. It is just too short to allow others to take any of it from us. Learn from the past and live stronger each day and for the rest of whatever we have left here.

Putting your best foot forward is all you can do. You can't contol others behaviors.
The people who are respected by others are the ones who just have the courage to be and dress and do what they feel is important to them. They don't have to gain by hurting others or controling others.

You know what I do? I love old jewerly. I love all the different colors, and it doesn't have to be real gold or real stones, they used to make really nice imatation jewlery. I have a collection from an old woman who used to love to wear fake jewerly. Well, I love to see what matches the outfit I CHOOSE REGARDLESS OF FASHION TREND and it is FUN.

I get a lot of compliments and I have been doing that for a really long time, guess what, thats in now. Wow, ahead of my time, and that will go out and Ill still do it because thats what is FUN for me, I LIKE IT.

You know, I don't need to have a diamond necklace to make me feel good, I DONT REALLY GIVE A DAM. Now rhinestones are my taste because you can get some really neat designs in that old rhinestone stuff. And, it makes a good fashion statement too. And if anyone askes, especially those up tight got to have the real stuff ones ask if they are real, I just say YES. LOOOOOOL

I have just a few diamonds, my engagement and wedding band. Oh and they didn't have to be big either. I love how these stars etc seem to need to give and get the BIG ONES. It is how much they love the other person. Some of those relationships don't even last a week.

So, go and have some fun, shop the old consignment shops and even good will has some interesting stuff. What matters is find something that YOU LIKE. The hell with everyone else and that whole fashion statement of the year.

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by LovebirdsFlying

No, but I am upset with society for setting up an unobtainable ideal of beauty. And for perpetuating the myth that overweight people are unattractive and unlovable.

You don't have to buy this, though.........

Originally Posted by Sannah

You don't have to buy this, though.........

I appreciate your concern for my body image, but my body image is not the point of the thread. I was raising the issue of a larger woman being in a situation of sexual assault, or the danger of it, and then being doubted when she tells about it. There are apparently men who will single out a larger woman for exactly that reason; if she tells, who will believe her?

Please pay attention to what I keep pointing out: the attitude of, "Oh, yeah, all those pretty girls in the room, and he came after YOU." I have, in fact, faced that. I have been in dangerous situations, and then had people scoff afterwards because they didn't believe the guy made a pass at the "fat chick" instead of the cheerleader. One high school classmate even told me once, after I mentioned a past boyfriend, that he didn't believe the boy existed. I must have been making him up. Me, have a boyfriend?

And even now I am not being believed, because the assumption is being made that I'm just insecure about being big. It is not MY insecurity I am posting about here. It is other people's stereotypes.

I don't have to be convinced of my attractiveness. I have a wonderful husband, and I was attractive enough to get him.

[Sannah]

But what can you do about other people's stereotypes? All you have to work with is you and how you react.

I find it very frustrating when I have trouble communicating my point.

Please stop making this thread about me. I am not comfortable under your microscope. This thread is not about my own insecurities or self-esteem. Once again, I am NOT saying, "Oh, I can't believe that man actually made a pass at me, because I'm so fat, how could he possibly...." I was never saying that. I was saying that this has happened, and OTHER PEOPLE have accused me of making it up. OTHER PEOPLE'S words. Not my own.

What can I do about it? Get the word out, that's what I can do about it, and that's what I've been trying to do here.

1. Any woman can be hit on by a sexual predator. Attractiveness has nothing to do with it.
2. Some men single out women who don't think they are attractive, and tell them they should be grateful for the advance.
3. Those men further assume that if the woman tells, no one will believe her.
4. Unfortunately it's true, many people don't believe her. They have it in their heads that the more "attractive" women would be scooped up first, and that the plainer-looking women would be left alone.

This is all I was ever trying to say.

Now, where did this give the impression that I have a problem with my body size?

Or is the assumption being made, "Oh, if she's plus-sized she must feel insecure about it, she can't possibly feel good about herself...." And that is stereotyping too.

[Sannah]

I guess because most people post here about themselves and don't make a thread to get the word out. Sorry for my misunderstanding.

[ladyjrnlist]

I got your point totally. Some people are just going to think what they think and nobody can change their minds. But if we look at how many plus-sized women are married in the world, we can see that they are not nearly as undesirable as the people who make that assumption say. Meaning, it IS entirely possible that a big girl could get picked over a skinny girl by a man for a date. Why not?

Originally Posted by LovebirdsFlying

I find it very frustrating when I have trouble communicating my point.

Please stop making this thread about me. I am not comfortable under your microscope. This thread is not about my own insecurities or self-esteem. Once again, I am NOT saying, "Oh, I can't believe that man actually made a pass at me, because I'm so fat, how could he possibly...." I was never saying that. I was saying that this has happened, and OTHER PEOPLE have accused me of making it up. OTHER PEOPLE'S words. Not my own.

What can I do about it? Get the word out, that's what I can do about it, and that's what I've been trying to do here.

1. Any woman can be hit on by a sexual predator. Attractiveness has nothing to do with it.
2. Some men single out women who don't think they are attractive, and tell them they should be grateful for the advance.
3. Those men further assume that if the woman tells, no one will believe her.
4. Unfortunately it's true, many people don't believe her. They have it in their heads that the more "attractive" women would be scooped up first, and that the plainer-looking women would be left alone.

This is all I was ever trying to say.

Now, where did this give the impression that I have a problem with my body size?

Or is the assumption being made, "Oh, if she's plus-sized she must feel insecure about it, she can't possibly feel good about herself...." And that is stereotyping too.

Originally Posted by Sannah

I guess because most people post here about themselves and don't make a thread to get the word out. Sorry for my misunderstanding.

Actually I owe you an apology. I was just telling my husband about this thread, and when I told him the tactics used by those men, the first thing out of his mouth was, "You've got to stop thinking you're not beautiful."

Which caused me to react with a major facepalm and "It's not about that." I then had to explain that I wasn't talking about my own insecurities about my appearance, but focusing instead on the men who use those techniques.

Point being, if my own husband misunderstood, then I wasn't saying it clearly. Sorry about that. And sorry for venting on you.

I obviously *used to* think I wasn't beautiful, and that's what made me a target for those men. So it is an easy assumption to make, that I still feel that way. This led to a discussion between my husband and me about how we've been brainwashed into thinking that only one body type is beautiful. I pointed out that if somehow all the flowers in the world got together and decided that only roses are beautiful, then we'd have sunflowers starving and mutilating themselves trying to look like roses. And would they look like roses? No. They'd look like sickly, mutilated sunflowers.

Hubby then pointed out that the sunflower is the official flower of the state of Kansas. If so many people think that highly of them, then sunflowers obviously have their own beauty.

Sunflowers know they're beautiful. They aren't going to be prey for some insect coming along and trying to pollinate them against their will, telling them they should appreciate it because they are sunflowers instead of roses. And the other flowers aren't going to react with disbelief that the insect chose them instead of a nearby rose.

Queen-size women of the world, we may not be roses, but as sunflowers we are just as beautiful. Don't let any insect force pollination on you. Don't let anyone tell you that you really want it when you say you don't, that you should welcome it, or that you aren't worthy of it if you do want it.

I may change my user name to Sunflower. I don't know.... thinking it over.

No hard feelings, I hope?

[Sannah]

Of course no hard feelings.

This topic is consuming for you?

Originally Posted by Sannah

Of course no hard feelings.

This topic is consuming for you?

Only recently, when a lightning bolt hit (figuratively of course) and I realized why I had been targeted by those men before. I no longer consider myself unattractive, or unworthy of sexual advances if they are *wanted.* Naturally, however, they are only wanted if offered by my husband. Assuming I'm not sick or anything. In my younger years, I took validation from being hit on, as evidence that I was desirable. Now, I know better.

When I was single and dating as recently as four years ago, before I met my husband, I had a big problem with men offering me sex instead of the love I was looking for. Instead of finding it validating, I found it annoying, and I think this is a challenge for anyone who is dating. I even encountered one who was married, had no intention of leaving his wife, but was on dating sites looking for a mistress, and I wasn't going to be one. Even after I made it clear I was after a committed relationship and nothing less, he still "offered." I turned him down flatter than Kansas. Not too crazy about that buy the cow/get the milk free analogy, so I'll look for another one... if he wants a taste of THIS dish, he'll have to buy the ingredients. No free samples.

It's lame, but at least it doesn't call me a cow.

The only thing that still disturbs me, and I'm attempting to educate people, is the stereotype that a bigger woman can't "get any," and therefore would be desperate enough to accept all offers, no matter how sleazy the propositioning sleazebag is. That's nonsense. The technique of "you should be grateful for my attention, because most men would ignore you" works ONLY if a woman believes it's true. And it isn't. When I was single, if I had been looking for mere sex, I could have walked into any seedy bar, made my intentions known, and come out of there with a man. Whether or not he would be the type of man a self-respecting woman would want to be with, that's another story. No, I wanted love, and I wasn't giving anything up until I got it.

Which kind of hints at another stereotype: So many women are under the delusion that they must lose drastic amounts of weight or they'll never "find a man." Are bigger women unable to find true love, and condemned to settling for crumbs tossed by those sleazebags? Also false. I found it.

I had similar experiences as far as men wanting to sleep with me LoveBirdsFlying.
Years ago I was extremely overweight and single, and trying to date through the newspaper personal ads (which definitely dates me) but they had no pictures...lucky for me. I would talk to men on the phone and they loved my sparkling personality. Back then I was desperate - living with my parents and dying to get out. I would have gone with anyone.

They would meet me....and they all wanted to sleep with me....which in my mind meant they "liked me" so I went willingly, or not...but they never called again, unless they wanted more.
I felt awful about myself, but this became the story of my life till I met my first husband.

My best revenge was about 12 years later, a guy I met way back when and had also embarassed me at a restaurant by only ordering a shrimp cocktail after I ordered a full dinner...
found my picture on a dating website....emailed me telling me how beautiful I was, as i'd lost about 80 lbs.
i recognized him immediately and reminded him of his shabby treatment of me way back when...
He wrote me back and apologized...of course I didn't go out with him, but it made me feel so much better to actually tell one man how awful he made me feel.

The best look for a woman, is confidence. If you feel good about yourself, it looks better than anything else you have. The girl with the best body will look ugly if she acts insecure or mean. This is what I have found to be true.

[Sannah]

There are men out there who are just looking to get laid and there are others who are looking for a relationship. Women have to know who they are looking for and how to recognize which one is standing in front of them.

I do believe that when we have issues to sort through that this is when we can be confused and are vulnerable to being mislead.

The only way out of this is to take care of ourselves. Being upset about society or whatever only causes us distress. I make my area of concerns manageable. I worry about myself, my family, my friends, my neighbors, my community, the world but I focus it on what I can do something about. If I can't do anything about it I limit how much energy I'm going to spend agonizing about it. You have to save your emotional energy. You can't spend it all.

Yes, you can drive yourself crazy trying to change the world.

My energy is focused on healing first, and then on educating younger women so they don't fall into the same traps I did. I have daughters in their twenties. Even when they were elementary school age I taught them that sex and love are not the same thing, and not to mistake one for the other. I also have a granddaughter. She's just a baby and not old enough for that kind of thing yet, but she will be, before we know it. For that matter, I would also hope my two-year-old grandson will be taught to treat women well, and to be one of those "good men" that a self-respecting woman will hold out for.

I've been told by several sources that I should write about the things that have happened to me. Whether a book or a blog, I don't know, but writing sounds good. Maybe I can stop someone else from going through it. In any case, young girls need to know that:

*There are good men in the world, and plenty of them. Don't make the mistake of settling for a sleazebag because you think all men are sleazebags. Not true. Demand the good man. Don't reward the sleazebag.
*You do not need to look like some idealized perfection in order to get one of those good men. You yourself, exactly as you are already, deserve to be treated with respect, by yourself and by others.
*Sleazebags will stop at nothing to get into a woman's pants. They don't think twice about saying "I love you" to a woman they don't love, if that will get them laid. Be aware of their tricks, and don't fall for them.
*Above all, just as I taught my girls, sex is not love, so don't confuse the two.